Talk:Zbigniew Ziobro

This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.

If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.

Biography: Politics and Government

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	This article is supported by the politics and government work group.

Poland

	Poland portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Poland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Poland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PolandWikipedia:WikiProject PolandTemplate:WikiProject PolandPoland articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

European Union

	European Union portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject European Union, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the European Union on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.European UnionWikipedia:WikiProject European UnionTemplate:WikiProject European UnionEuropean Union articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Guild of Copy Editors

This article was copy edited by PaintedCarpet, a member of the Guild of Copy Editors, on 25 May 2014.Guild of Copy EditorsWikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy EditorsTemplate:WikiProject Guild of Copy EditorsGuild of Copy Editors articles

Copy edit

PaintedCarpet (talk) 16:07, 25 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Zbigniew Ziobro - 2019 (48085697621) (cropped).jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 04:24, 12 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zbigniew_Ziobro&diff=1037707204&oldid=1037706330 is strongly sourced by:

1. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/polish-justice-minister-says-warsaw-cannot-comply-with-eus-court-ruling-2021-07-21/ Reuters: Polish justice minister says Warsaw cannot comply with EU's court ruling

2. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/poland-should-not-stay-eu-all-costs-says-minister-2021-08-06/ Reuters: Poland should not stay in EU at all costs, says minister

3. https://digital.herder-institut.de/publications/frontdoor/deliver/index/docId/175/file/Bucholc_Komornik_The_Polish_Holocaust_Law_2019.pdf Cultures of History Forum, published: 19.02.2019

4. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/23739770.2016.1262991 Israel Journal of Foreign Affairs

5. https://prchiz.pl/storage/app/media/2018/00/jorg-hackmann/defending-the-good-name.pdf Defending the “Good Name” of the Polish Nation: Politics of History as a Battlefield in Poland, 2015-18, Journal of Genocide Research

Mellow Boris (talk) 06:56, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No, this is a BLP violation, not "strongly sourced" by any measure. The sources don't say what you claim they say, account with 50 edits. Volunteer Marek 07:10, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Editor Volunteer Marek https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zbigniew_Ziobro&curid=5816176&diff=1037707443&oldid=1037707204 says this is "BLP violating BS (no, the sources don't say that)". The text entered was "Ziobro was the driving force behind Poland's controversial amendment to the Act on the Institute of National Remembrance which outlawed speech on Polish-Nazi cooperation.". The sources write:

1. https://digital.herder-institut.de/publications/frontdoor/deliver/index/docId/175/file/Bucholc_Komornik_The_Polish_Holocaust_Law_2019.pdf "The first attempt to target those who publicly argued for Polish complicity... ‘Lex Gross’ was eventually struck down in a ruling of the Constitutional Tribunal (which coincided with a liberal takeover of power in late 2007). But in 2018, after the Constitutional Tribunal was transformed into a “governmental enabler”[11] and Zbigniew Ziobro returned to his position as Minister of Justice, ‘Lex Gross’ was restored in new, upgraded form as the amendment to the IPN law, causing even greater havoc with its muddy logic"

2. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/23739770.2016.1262991 "According to Article 55 a. 1 of that law: Whoever publicly and against the facts ascribes to the Polish Nation, or to the Polish State, the responsibility or complicity for Nazi crimes committed by the III German Reich ... , shall be subject to fine or three years of imprisonment... Justice Minister Zbigniew Ziobro, the man behind the legislation, declared..."

3. https://prchiz.pl/storage/app/media/2018/00/jorg-hackmann/defending-the-good-name.pdf "The changes of the act on the IPN that classify the use of “Polish” in connection with “concentration camp” or “ghetto” as a criminal act, because it allegedly ascribes the Polish nation a responsibility for Nazi crimes, were first stipulated in September 2016 by the Minister of Justice and general prosecutor Zbigniew Ziobro. The rejection of the illformulated wording was named an attack on the “good name of the Polish nation” that should be prosecuted by means of criminal law. In that perspective, the “protection of the reputation of the Polish Republic and the Polish nation” was added to the tasks of the IPN."

Mellow Boris (talk) 07:16, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Like I said.... Volunteer Marek 07:17, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Like you said what? What are you disputing? That Ziobro was the driving force behind this shitty legislation? 2 says "Justice Minister Zbigniew Ziobro, the man behind the legislation". That this shitty legislation outlawed speech on Polish-Nazi cooperation? Sources support that too.Mellow Boris (talk) 07:26, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No they don't. Volunteer Marek 07:39, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I quoted sources, they do say Ziobro was "the man behind the legislation". User:Isabelle0934 supported similar entry too and User:-- -- -- added this almost a year ago. More editors support this being in than out.Mellow Boris (talk) 07:48, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

None of the sources you quoted say that this amendment "outlawed speech on Polish-Nazi cooperation". At any rate, you're in violation of the 500/30 restriction. Volunteer Marek 08:06, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes they do say that, this outlaws speech on Polish Nazis. The 500/30 restriction you linked to on my talk page is about history from 1933-1945, it is not about modern legislation. User:Isabelle0934 and User:-- -- -- can you provide input on this restriction?Mellow Boris (talk) 08:11, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No. It does nothing like that. And yes the restriction applies. Volunteer Marek 08:35, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ami magazine

The text “ Ziobro has also announced that he was considering the introduction of a law to target language used to refer to Poland's role in the Holocaust.” was removed because

it’s outdated
what a politician says he “might” do isn’t encyclopedic and hence UNDUE.

More importantly I just checked the source (here it is - there was no link provided originally) and shockingly, Ziobro, is not even mentioned in the piece. So this is a pretty blatant misrepresentation and a BLP vio, on top of everything else. Volunteer Marek 21:15, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding your last point, Zioboro is mentioned in the printed magazine. The link only provides the beginning of the article, as you can see at the bottom of the page: To read more, subscribe to Ami, meaning that the rest of the article (which includes mention of Ziobro) is available only to subscribers. I will not argue on your first two points; so if someone will remove the paragraph, I will not edit-war. I, personally, prefer to leave it the way it is. Thanks for listening, -- -- -- 21:35, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

oh, I see, thanks for clarifying that. As to the broader issue IF Ziobro proposes some law like that I would have absolutely no problem with including it in the article. But this is from two years ago and afaik he hasn’t so it’s not particularly encyclopedic. Volunteer Marek 22:05, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's a duplicitious argument. The law was passed a few weeks later as described in [1], [2], and [3]. After a large backlash it was softened a bit as written in Poland’s Holocaust Law Weakened After ‘Storm and Consternation’ (New York Times), that writes that "it was Mr. Ziobro’s own ministry that had drafted the law, and he personally had voted for it as a member of Parliament."Mellow Boris (talk) 05:47, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dude, that’s even LESS of a reason to include that sentence as written. “Joe Biden said he might run for President”. Volunteer Marek 05:59, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dude, I fixed it [4]. You can fix it to "Joe Biden was elected president" or "Zbigniew Ziobro was the driving force behind Poland's controversial amendment to the Act on the Institute of National Remembrance which outlawed speech on Polish-Nazi cooperation". Both are large events in their careers.Mellow Boris (talk) 06:05, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No, you actually didn’t. You were also violating the 500/30 restriction. Volunteer Marek 06:11, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]