Talk:Zazas/Archive 1

Essay

The following essay was placed in the article Zaza. I have moved it here as more appropriate. Other than fixing bad paragraph formatting it is verbatim. If there are citations for this, the bulk of it might make a very useful addition to the article. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:18, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Zaza people are mainly divided into two major groups because of their distinction in belife system. There are northern Zaza people that call them selves Kurmanci but are not related with the kurmanji of the kurds. Te old name that they used to use was Dimilche for their language which nowadays only some of the old people remember. They speak so-be language which means go and come, this name is given mainly to distunguish hare-were of kurdish kurmanji which also means go and come, but is not used to name the language among the native speakers.The people recently started to call them selves as people of Dersim, and their language as Dersim Language. There are aproximatly 1,500 to 2,000 Dersimic people in the world, mainly in big cities of Turkey, Istanbul, Izmir, Ankara and Adana and also in Europe mainly in Germany. There are other branches in Hinis and Varto, geographically apart from main Dersim land. Some also live in Sivas. Their belives are strongly tied with Alewi sect of islam recently, taking power from opposing Sunni islam and calling the Sunnis as Dogs as a cursing word. Also Calling the Kurmanji Kurds as Khurs as another cursing word. The tie with being alewi is mainly strenghtened by the war campaign of Yavuz Sultan Selim,the Ottoman King to Safevids. He might have killed a sizeable number of Alewis including the Dersimic Alewis during his Campaign.

Their religion is very much blended with islam, but many do not know much about religion, but will say that they are muslims when asked. The ones living in northern part of the region claosed to Erzincan are more islamic and try to obey 5 pillars of islam more than the ones living in Tunceli Province. Bolaban Tribe which opposed Russian Army during the time around WW-I are assimilated probably up to a scale that they can not speak the language any more. In the Belief system honesty, self reliablity and hard working is couraged. There are Cem`s instead of islamic prayers in Dersimic Religion, which old Dervishes concantrate some rituals including advices with Saz a kind of musical instrument and Licking a piece of burning wood as Keramet, Miracle to influence the people around. These Cem`s are mainly held near by Jare`s which means places to visit, is either a House of a Dervish or a Tomb or a Stone, Spring or a tree or a special village. People do sleep outside during these Deme`s.

The Religious ranking is Rayver`s Pir`s Bava`s and Ana`s the last two meaning Father and Mother. Kuresi is a the name of the religious tribe where Pir`s and Rayver`s are from. Duzun Bava, Munzir bava are local noble men died centuries ago. Sacrifising animal ceremonies are important. without knowing to be sin They do sacrifize animals nearby Tombs and Jare`s. Because of this Suni people do not eat the animals they sacrifize. In recent years the people, and the young generation became Leftist political view and establised or enrolled in many terrorist activities against the central government which pressed political and national identities. PKK, TKPML, DHKPC are some of the extremist left groups terrorizing the region taking the advantage of its mountaines landscape and are fed by the suburban populations in bigger cities.

The people are massacered after an uprising in 1938 which made the Dersimic Sociaty to change for ever, because of the death of high ranked people, mainly religios and political leaders, rich and educated. Some were deported from the area until 1945`s and send to different places but turned back soon.

Cem Evleri, means gathering Houses play a major role in modernization of Alewi religion. They are fractionized by different political groups and has different rituals.Since being so called Alewi is the cultural Identity of most Dersimic people there are strong ties with non Aryanic Turkish Alewis of Sivas, Corum, Yozgat and also strong ties between the Kurmanji Kurds taht are alewi and living around the area of Malatya, Maras, Bingol, Erzurum, Tokat, Amasya.

Tribes are still distinguishible in the area and even in the cities and people live a closed community life than an publicly open society. Marriages are among themselves and the language is still used by the people aging up to 35 or more as a communication language. Historical events are showing that theories of on these people strongly suggest that they are the decendents of Assasins of Iran-Alamut. Deylamites or the historic Ziyari Governmet has strong ties with the people. They most probably immigrated to the area from Gilan or Rest during the Mongol and Ilkhanite invasion.

Unlike the Northern Zaza`s, southren Zaza people are stricly sunni sect of Muslim but interestingly they share the same alnguage at almost 80% with a different accent. They are spread to the areas around Siverek, Palu, Genc, Bingol, Cermik, Lice, Diyarbakir and are the same people that statted the uprising of Seyh Said during 1920`s. They do involve in Kurdish Uprising against the central govenment accept the Bucak tribe in Siverek. But they are suspicious against PKK which is very much Communist orienated and do not promote relgion and religious freedom at all. --141.150.16.228 01:47, 12 December 2005 (UTC)Torne Galfirat--141.150.16.228 01:47, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

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Hi,you wrote a good essay; however, you made a word mistake Northern Zazaki dialect is "Kurmanjki" not "Kurmanci" You can check it on Ethnologue. http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=kiu

That appears to be how it is spelled in the article, except in one place where it is a direct quotation of a title. I suspect that there are probably several equally or comparably acceptable spellings. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:31, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Zazaki Wikipedia

Please support our Zazaki Wikipedia project at: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages#Zazaki_.284_Support.29

How can I deny

I "deny" anything uncited. Please have a read of WP:CITE. As far as I care anything uncited is stuff you are making up. --Cool Cat^Talk|@ 16:02, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Cool Cat, may I assume this is over where you commented out "since both [are] Iranic peoples, they share in many points culturally, linguistically, historically and even politically" and someone else restored it. Cool Cat, would you agree that "linguistically" is documented elsewhere in the article and it is the other points that are at issue? I'm aware that there are some Zaza who consider themselves more distinct from the Kurds than has historically been the view of anthropolgists. Is that what this is about, or am I incorrectly reading between the lines?

This is not a topic on which I am expert, but I think one could readily find sources that would assert that the Zaza are Kurds, pure and simple, and other sources that say quite the opposite. I don't have any plans of putting a lot of effort into this article; I would suggest that it would be improved by someone finding and citing sources on both sides of this controversial issue, which, as I understand it, has been somewhat exacerbated by the Turkish government's at times favoring those Zaza who do not identify as Kurds. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:30, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

We should use only reliable sources. There are many political articles telling Zazas are actually Turks or even some of them say Zazas are actually Armenian. There are many publishing sponsored by different governments and political organizations to include Zazas under their ethnic groups. For example, until late 90’s Turkish state universities published articles to prove Zazas are Turks. Recently, a professor named Victoria Arakelova from Yerevan University, Armenia claims that most of the Zazas are from Armenians decent. She had several presentations in the USA and Europe to prove that. I think we should be very suspicious about some sources, especially those prepared for political purposes. It is important about the reliability of the Wikipedia.

I think only Western sources should be used here. There are several scholars studied Zazas and Zazaki Language in European and American Universities. Dr. Jost Gippert (http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/personal/gippertj.htm) from Frankfurt University wrote several articles and books about Zazaki Language. Paul Ludwig also from Frankfurt University wrote his doctoral dissertation about the Zazaki Language and published a book about its grammar. In USA, John Gajewski from the University of Connecticut wrote several articles about the Zazaki language. We can also rely on Ethnologue and also other western sources. --69.107.107.182 23:26, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

The thing is that these controversies are themselves notable. I agree that we need to be vary careful on our sources in terms of what we state as factual, but we should also be reporting, contextualizing, and attributing minority and even discredited opinions, if they are widely held. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:09, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

The best thing to do is go and ask Zaza's what they think they are. And fortunately the answer would be "We are more Kurdish then Kurmancis". I'll try my best to improve the article too. Ozgur Gerilla 02:41, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

1. I doubt you would find unanimity among the Zaza on this matter.
2. Not only the members of an ethnic group may have meaningful views on the descent of the group. For example, the Pashtun have a widely held belief that they descend from a lost tribe of Israel; few anthropologists agree. - Jmabel | Talk 01:50, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Aren't Zaza Kurds?!

It is strange that there is almost nothing about Kurds in this article although the majority of Zaza people consider themselves Kurds. And the rest of the Kurds also reagrd them as Kurds. Although Zazaki (the language / dialect of the Zaza) is quite different from the dialect of the majority of the Kurds, i.e., Kurmanji, Zazaki is is given publishing sections or hours in almost every Kurdish broadcasting media. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.232.114.203 (talk • contribs) 25 Jan 2006

All minorities and ethnic populations have independant historical backround in Anatolia.The political organizations supports their own idea for Kurdistan ideoloji.In Anatolia,Armenian,Suryanian,Cherkes,Laz(Phontus Rum,Zaza,Turkoman,Jews,Khurmancs(kurd)are ethnic populations. First of all there is no evidence about zaza population to describe like Kurds.Kurds say they are KHURMANC.ZAZA population do not say they are kurd or khurmanc.Zazas calls KHUR for khurmanc.They say "ma khur nime".iTS MEAN IS "WE ARE NOT KHURMANC".Second WORD KIRMANCS mean is KIZILBAS(READ HEAD).However KHURMANCS are KURDS.fOR INSTINCE,Dersim population do not use khurmanc and kurd words and they do not like kurds as well.Dersim population describe their history independantly,they say "we are Dersiman and we are KIZILBASH-ALEVI(READ HEAD-ALEVI).dERSIM kIZILBASHIES ARE NOT MUSLIM AS WELL.They do not recpect the kuran do not believe the holly kuran.On the other hand KURDS ARE MUSLIM,SPEAK KHURMANCI AND ALSO THEY HAVE DIFFIRENT CULTURE AS WELL.Academically these two languages are completely diffrent.These two population do not understand each other.There is no dialect problem.Because they are copletely fiffirent languages.If they were dialects,one of them would be common language, but it is not.Some politic organisations supporters writing something untrue,and they know that it is not true as well.This is a political propaganda.Do not believe them.Because they do not know anything abour ZAZAs history.Thats why they can not show any evidence.There are somo words about their diffirincies:

ZAZA ALEVI ZAZA/KIZILBAHS ZAZA DIMILI DIMILI ZAZA KIRMANC/ZAZA/DERSIMLI/DERSIMAN ZAZACA ZAZAKI DIMILKI KIRMANCKI/ZAZAKI/SO BE KIRMANC/KIRMANCIYE/KIRMANCKI(DERSIM POPULATION)FOR KIZILBASH REGION THEY USE THESE WORDS JUST FOR DERSIM REGION NOT FOR KURDS OR KHURMANCS AND ITS MEANS IS KIZILBASH/ALEVI.Kizilbash Alevies are not muslim.Their belives are completely different.

Furthermore ZAZA name is common.Muslum ZAZA and KIZILBASH ZAZA.aT THE MOMENT dERSIM people wont their otonomy for Dersim geography.They say they are federatif ethnic population with ANATOLIAN FEDERATION.They do not call for themselves khurmanc or kurds.This is just political organisations propaganda like turkish outhority.They won to change the people and make kurds and establish the kurdistan.That is why they call for all generations a Kurd.kHURMANC People do not use the kurd name they say they are khurmanc.Kurd name is politics for other ethnicities.

KHURMANC KHURMANCI KHUR KIRO KURD KURDISH

SORANI

GORANI

eVENTUALLY there is no connection between languages, names,peoples. Finally ZAZA people do not say they are a kurd.There are many khurmancs(kurds)they say they are Turk.

What is needed to be said is that the kurds consists of two main groups, the today dominating kurmanj(kurmanc) and the goran. The kurmanj were historically from the hakkari region, they were muslim and also nomads and spoke the kurmanji dialect of kurdish(later a northern and a southern,sorani, sub-dialect emerged. The kurmanj had their break through after the battle of chaldiran in 1514(see below).

The goran (meaning settled) were on the otherhand were agriculturalists or were town dwellers, these were Yazdanis(alevi, yaresani and yezidi) and spoke dimili(zaza), hawrami-gorani. They were dominating kurdish group until the 16-th century when a gradual kurmanjization was comming.

The perian and osmanian empire now since the 16-th century had a common border, right through the kurdish homeland, with constant wars, pillaging and campaigning. This led to a scorched earth policy by the two empires. This was devestating to the agriculturalist goran-kurds but more "suitable" for the kurmanj nomads who spread from the hakkari region to the North and west and, even though in a slower pace south due to that the south was less affected by the wars.

The gorans were integrated with the kurmanjs who conquered their lands, there for the today kurmanji speaking muslim kurds may well once have been gorani-kurds. The the gorans are however today found in southern and western parts of Kurdistan. There is also today a clear linguistic connection between the Dimili(zaza) and the Gorans of southern Kurdistan.

Then one may argue "are the gorans and dimili(zaza) actually kurds?" And my answer is a clear yes perhaps even more kurds than the kurmanjs!

Some linguists say that dimili(zaza) and gorani is not kurdish(i.e. kurmanji), how ever these linguists forget that the differentiation between if these are different languages or a dialect is purely political. Another example is the Serbian language and the Croatian language who before Yugoslavias fragmentation was considered one language but two dialects. So there is no reason to differentiate Kurdish and Gorani-Dimili(zaza). The claim that they are not kurdish dialects is also quite strange sice the kurmanjs refere to there tongue as kurmanji or kurdi(kurdish). While the gorans, ironically, reffere to their tongue only as Kurdi(kurdish).

But then of course some Dimili(zaza) reffere them selves as non kurdish as do some kurmanjs for one reason than another. The main reason for Dimili(zaza) to call themselves nonkurds are that they are mainly Alevi while the kurmanj are maily sunni-muslims, this have led to massacres on the alevi population led by muslim fanatics after the fall of the independent kurdish principalities during the 19-th century who were religiously tolerant. But after the fall of the principalities there was no power to stop these religious fanatics and the result was massacres on non-muslims. Consequently some of the Dimili(zaza) alevis have kept a distance from the kurds.

p.s. the word Kurd is an ethnic name and not a political term.

'''''KIRMANCIYE[DERSIM],KIRMANC[DERSIMAN],KIRMANCKI[DERSIMCE]

I am from Dersim.Dersimans do not call for themselves as a Kurd:MA KIRMANCIME ; MA KHUR NIME!.Thats our description.What does Kirmanc mean?Kirmanc mean is a Kizilbash in Dersim.Dersimans call for kurdS a Khur, which mean is Khurmanc.Khurmanc mean is a KUrd but Kirmanc is not a Kurd.Secondly,Dersimans call for their land as Kirmanciye:KIRMANCIYE WELATE MAWA.MA KIRMANCME MA KHUR NIME."MA KHUR NIME" mean is "we are not kurds".Thats quite clear but yuth generation have been asimilated by political organisations by Turkish outhorities.Thats why they lost their identity and they cann not support their original identity.Go Dersim and ask elder people they will describe themselves as a Dersiman[KIRMANC/KIZILBASH].

Dersimans are not Kurd or Zaza.Anyone can speak different languages at anytime but it does not mean they are all same population.For instince young Dersimans in Germany speaks German. so how can we call for them as a German?It's sociologically not true.On the other hand how can different populations do understand each other in same country?One language has to be common.That shows us there are different ethniciies and languages.We do not care about diffirent countries examples.How can we compare them?We are living in Anatolia and Anatolia is a great geoghrapical region for different cultures,religions,languages and identities.Please do not think poloticaly about history.

Furthermore Dersimans are Kizilbash:Their religion is Kizilbashiszm:Itiqate dersimi:Itiqate KIRMANCIYE.They are not muslim but Zazas and Kurds are Muslim.

Dersimans generaly speak Zazaki/Kirmancki/Dersimce/zone ma/so-be[one language but different names] but they do not call for their populations as Zaza.Because Dersim population is completely different and an ethnicity. Again there is no evidence about Zazas and Dersimans described as a Kurdish population.Kurdistan ideoloji is so different.Dersim region does not eccept their language and religion and culture.There is no common history,common language and culture so how can it be one nation?Thats polotical idea.If it was about Kurds that would be right but for Zazas and Dersimans is not true.

If someone need some evidence about zazaki/kirmancki they can look www.zazaki.de.There are some articles about Zaza language. www.themunzur.org

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I also believe that Zaza's are Kurds, there is no evidence to prove the opposite either. A lot of Zaza's still claim that they are Kurds and I think that Zaza nationalism is just another way to seperate and weaken the Kurds, even though we live so seperated already. Zaza nationalism only appeared recently and I have never read any claims of an independant "Zazaistan" before the 80's. It's a shame that there are a lot of wikipedia articles about Zaza's where Kurds aren't even mentioned.--Bijikurdistan 13:02, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Historic Roots of the Zaza People??!!

The article says:

Some linguistics think the ancestors of the contemporary Zazas immigrated between the 10th and 11th centuries to their present-day homeland in eastern Anatolia from southern regions of Caspian Sea Some linguists connect the word Dimli with the Daylamites in the Alborz Mountains near the shores of Caspian Sea in Iran and believe that the Zaza have migrated from Daylamestan towards the west.

How ever some historians think the opposite, that the migration was in the opposite direction: from "their present day homeland" to "Daylamestan". The Dilaman (Dimila/Zaza) homeland is also, acording to the Zoroastrian holy book, Bundahishn in the headwaters of the Tigris, as it is today. This points to that the Dimila/Zaza migrated TO the Caspian sea not the opposite.

You have a valid point and I think it should be corrected. Fransoi 18:01, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Correction

The title of the article is not proper. This is their language which by some linguists is considered apart from other Kurdish dialects not their ethnicity. Zazas speaking any language ethnically are a branch of Kurds. It should be corrected. Fransoi 17:43, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you are right. I agree with you. Zazas are ethnically a branch of Kurds. AbdulRahman 18:05, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

They might be related (as their languages are related). But, this does not imply that Zazas are ethnically a branch of Kurds. Bidabadi 01:51, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

The Dimili/Zazas are ethnical Kurds and their language is kurdish, Dimili/Zaza is a dialect of kurdish. All Dimile/zazas that i have met considre themselves as Kurds. About the classification of languages, many linguists (who mean that Zaza is not kurdish) forget the historical aspect of the matter. They consider the Kurmanj to be Kurds and the norm, this is however wrong since Kurmanji spread from the Hakkari region during the medieval times northward and southward during the 16-th century. Before this Kurds spoke Pahlawani- a southern branch: Gorani and a northern: Dimili/Zazai. This conection is however ignored by linguists and the fact that the gorani and zazai refer to their dialect as ´´Kurdi´´ while the kurmanj refer to ´´Kurmanji´´. So who is more Kurd? I´d say the Gorani and Zazai. Remember that the difference betwen a language and a dialect is political. Serbo-croatian became, after the war in Yugoslavia, Serbian and croatian and bosnian. Swedish, Danish, Norwegan and icelandic could well be one language with dialects, but due to the political borders they are four different languages. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.65.146.201 (talk • contribs) 29 April 2006.

This article is an Anti-Kurdish viewpoint of the turkish regime. Zazas ever have been the most pure Kurds. By saying they are not Kurds, turkeys want not only to insult and attack Zazas but even all other Kurds. http://countrystudies.us/turkey/28.htm

To whom is neutral:

• Language: http://concise.britannica.com/ebc/article-9046467/Kurdish-language
• Genetic:http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1529-8817.2005.00174.x
• Ethnicity genrally: http://countrystudies.us/turkey/28.htm

Some stupid hypothesis by some biased anti-Kurdish individuals does not change any thing from the fact that Zazas are part of the Kurdish people.

Map is original research

All,

The Map Image:Moderniranianlanguagesmap21.PNG which has been presented in this article as fact, is an original research work by User:Imperial78. It needs to be specified that the map is not necessarily objectively sourced, but is instead a user-created illustration.--Zereshk 02:30, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Religion and Zazas

I noticed "Christian" was added, somewhat hastilly, to the Zaza-religions thread. Any references for this? My impression from friends in the Istanbul zaza community (two of whom are Zaza folklorists) was that the large majority of Zazas were Alevi, the large minority Sunni, and that there were a small number who were Yezidi or Christian. I need to check the exact number, but Tünceli has something like 90% Alevi-Zaza villages.

Does anyone have a copy of Peter Alford Andrews, Ethnic Groups in the Republic of Turkey handy? That would provide the most accurate assessment of the religious distribution of Zazas, at least in the 1960s, when most of the research data was from.

Second, I think this line must go. "The religious division is very strong among Zazas which prevents them to interact with each other." It's bad English, for starters, and I can provide you many examples from recent experience that refute this claim and demonstrate to the contrary a unifying of Zazas. Unless, of course, someone has a source they wish to cite and can situate the "religious division" in a specific place at a specific time.

Also, where does the spelling "Alavi-Zaza" come from - is it a Zaza term or transliteration? The Turkish spelling would be "Alevi-Zaza."

--oudplayer 10:08, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

My guess would be that you know the topic better than whoever wrote these sentences. Be bold! (but cite reliable sources if at all possible). - Jmabel | Talk 18:51, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Ludwig Paul

The provenance of the Ludwig Paul material cited is very unclear. The online cited material appears to be photocopied from an unnamed book. It is likely to be a copyright violation by the site hosting it. We should identify the actual source of this material and credit it appropriately. - Jmabel | Talk 01:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:23, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Zaza been influenced by Turkish

Denizz keeps reverting sentences added by me which I try to make the topic as objective as possible. This user pushes a political agenda on such thing and cannot even source the argument properly. Zazaki is an Indo-Iranian language considered as a dialect of Kurdish and has not much to do with Turkish or Turkic languages, even if one knew or analysed the languages linguistically one cannot find much similarities, this is another way of pushing Turkish supremity in Turkey and Anatolian related articles. Matter of fact, this can be proved by sourcing a dictionary but is those users who write such nonsense going to be bothered; well what ever the case, I will source a Zazaki dictionary and if these users can find more than 100 words of Turkish origin in the Zazaki language then I will accept the insertion but if they can't please do not insert irrelevant, assuming and politically effected arguments. This is the article of an ethnic group populated from 2-6 million and doesn't deserve such unfair or unreasonable propositions. Özgūr ^{Talk Hist} 01:08, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I looked at whats being disputed here, and I must also say that Even though Zazaki is an Iranian Language, it is recently influenced by Turkish language.‹The template Talkfact is being considered for merging.›  sounds very POV, especially because its not even sourced (which brings into question why Deniz is pushing for unsourced information).Azerbaijani 01:16, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I would also like to as why this statement is so important: Moreover, the US State Department "Background Note" lists Zaza as one of the languages of Turkey, along with Turkish (official), Kurdish, Armenian, Greek, and Arabic[5]

Its merely pointing out the obvious, I'm not even sure if its necessary. Zazaki is a language of Turkey as Kurdish is a language of Iraq or as Azeri is a language of Iran. Thats my 2 cents, hope it helps.Azerbaijani 01:20, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

First, I am not the one who wrote that sentence, but I am the one who restored it and put a fact tag there. It is a feasible thing, in fact the normal thing because of cultural interactions. We should give the editor who added that sentence a chance to provide sources. Now, if you are saying that since it is such a normal thing, it might be POV pushing if you write it, than it is another story. If the editor who added it can find a good source, then it also means that it is worthy of being there, and not POV pushing; so, it should stay there. If this is not the only thing that is disputed with my revert, please mention here (like why you remove sourced info, discredit a newspaper, etc). I am going to revert. Please don't revert back until we reach a consensus. My edit summary there explains everything. Also don't accuse me of attacking someone when I am not. See WP:Consensus. Deniz^T_C 12:45, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the user who wrote this should come back and source the information but until then it is only appropriate to leave the argument out of the article and we have here a discussing ongoing now so the user who demands it to be displayed shall find acceptable source. As per Azerbaijani, it is nonsense to keep the argument at this stage and as I said before the argument of been influenced cannot be proven; I motivate you to pick up a Zazaki dictionary and pinpoint those words which have Turkic origins (even if you find such words, I may easily disagree and prove that it is the result of Turkic-Iranian cultural interaction that has a long history). This is probably the most efficient way to halt this problem and has no exceptions, meaning that such argument that has a large practical implication should be well sourced. If not it has no place in the article. I am sure Turkish users revert edits of arguments that argue that the Turkish language is heavily influenced by Persian and Arabic; which in a sense is true considering the fact of the amount of words loaned from those languages. But this nevertheless is not a good argument because proving it is much more difficult than disproving it. I repeat the language is not influenced by Turkish in my opinion and users who want to have such unreasonable arguments should be able to source it very well and objectively. Özgūr ^{Talk Hist} 13:14, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok, let me pot Wikipedia's policy:

• If it is doubtful but not harmful to the whole article, use the {{Fact}} tag to ask for source verification, but remember to go back and remove the claim if no source is produced within a reasonable time.

• If it is doubtful and harmful, you should remove it from the article; you may want to move it to the talk page and ask for a source, unless you regard it is as very harmful or absurd, in which case it should not be posted to a talk page either. Use your common sense. Do not be inappropriately cautious about removing unsourced material; it is better for Wikipedia to say nothing on an issue than to present false or misleading material. (See here: [1])

Ok, this sentence is obviously harmful, as it is causing an edit war, furthermore, this sentence has been in the article since atleast Novermeber 6, 2006, and still doesnt have a source ([2]) the only conclusion I can come to is that Wikipedia policy say it must be removed.Azerbaijani 13:34, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Azerbaijani, the fact tag wasn't there since November (I might be the first one to have put the fact tag, and I did it just yesterday). As a matter of fact, the fact that the sentence had been there since November (in fact since January 2006) indicates a strong (previous) consensus if nothing else. So many people (including Özgür) have edited the article so many times since then. If you guys insist that that sentence has been harmful, I am not going to insist any more for keeping the sentence with the fact tag. But what about the rest? Özgür, you should revert yourself, then I can remove the sentence with the fact tag. Once again, please see WP:Consensus. You are making a big change here, we need to have consensus before we put them on the article. I still don't understand why you insist on discrediting that newspaper. Deniz^T_C 14:25, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not going to revert or engange in edit warring in this article. I just came by and saw there was a dispute here and thought I'd help. Also, the sentence being there for so long does not imply consensus, as many times thigns get put into articles that people dont notice.Azerbaijani 15:29, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I seriously don't think there is a need for consensus and further more I do not think reverting my self is reasonable. The blatant of the matter is that the argument is insufficient in providing source and had its time in the article. I encourage everyone who sees these type of arguments to take action to better Wikipedia. Finally, I think not only me but everyone shares a common knowledge that the Turkish newspapers have a long history of biases when it comes to ethnical related subjects, thus it cannot be considered as "well source" even if we analyze the nature of it; a Turkish related subject been commented by a Turkish newspaper seems a little ironic to say the least! Özgūr ^{Talk Hist} 17:13, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean with 'there is no need for consensus'? Also, it seems to me that you are discrediting that newspaper just because it is a Turkish newspaper, and I don't like that. It's reporting a research, and the same research had been reported by many newspapers (including at least one Kurdish newspaper, I don't remember the name now). It is enough to have one newspaper, and we have that one. When I said revert yourself, what i meant is that, since we have been discussing only one small part of your edit, just one sentence, lets revert your edits, and remove that sentence. Apparently you do not have valid reasons for other edits. Anyway, I am going to do that revert, and remove the 'bad sentence' for now. By the way, the 'bad sentence' was added by anon (71.198.76.135, talk page, contributions) who seems to be quite knowledgeable on the subject, as a matter of fact, a great part of the info on the main page is added by him/her. Deniz^T_C 22:33, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Go ahead start a consensus, I am absolutely fine with it, but do not edit or change those sentences as if you own the place. You have no right to delete well arguments with good sources which try to convey objectivism in such controversial issues. The newspaper you've mentioned has been racist towards Kurds in its history and the research is not supported by Kurdish organisations, but this hasn't got much to do with the main issue. It is a fact it is a Turkish newspaper and it is worth mentioning it in the article since the Kurdish organisations are forbidden under Article 301. I want this article to be as objective as possible so please do try to understand me in this but as Azerbayjani is pointing out the arguments are not well sourced so don't deserve to be there. Finally please let's come to a conclusion instead of editing. Özgūr ^{Talk Hist} 00:25, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Also as you backed such arguments to be on the article and a person who knows Turkish please listen to this modern Zazaki song and tell me how many words you spot that are also in the Turkish or even in the Turkic languages or even Altaic languages. http://youtube.com/watch?v=fXyhitINbuA Özgūr ^{Talk Hist} 00:32, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Whats the point of this statement:

The US State Department "Background Note" lists Zaza as one of the languages of Turkey, along with Turkish (official), Kurdish, Armenian, Greek, and Arabic

Isnt it pointing out the obvious? This statement combined with the one after it suggest that one is meant to mean that Zaza is Turkic while Britannica says its not...The US department source simply states the obvious, that Zaza langauge is a language spoken in Turkey.Azerbaijani 23:24, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

There is absolutely no point to it. It's just Turkish Wikipedians trying to show Turkish supremicy over other rich cultured people in Anatolia, as I've mentioned before. Özgūr ^{Talk Hist} 00:25, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

POV, History of Zazas

The last paragraph under the History of Zazas section looks fishy. It is obviously a POV.

Why is it POV? It is not POV, just use your common sence, the Dilaman in the caspian region is known only since the middle ages. According to the Bundahishin however Dilaman was in the headwaters of the Tigris where it still is. Knowing this it is only logical that they moved FROM this original Dilaman TO the Caspian Dilaman. It is not POV it is just a logical and very fair statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.225.3.158 (talk) 22:20, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I think there are serious POV issues. In particular, opinions are not clearly attributed. - Jmabel | Talk 23:40, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

ZARA ARE KURDS!!!!!!!!!

Hello! There is a truth that no one can ever deny. The Zaza people are an undivided part of THE KURDISH people in Kurdistan, they speak a dialect of KURDISH. They ARE KURDS!!!! Zaza is NOT a different population, they are a part of the Kurdish population. Compare a yorkshirer, is a yorkshirer a part of the british-english people??? of course they are! the same with zaza, they are orgin kurds, as yezidi kurds, shabak kurds, sorani kurds, kurmanci kurds, fayli kurds, hawrami kurds, kakayi kurds and so on. NO ONE CAN DNEY THAT!!! NO ONE CAN CHANGE THE THING THAT ALREADY EXISTS!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.243.154.127 (talk) 22:06, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh, really! I deny that the Zaza are Kurds - which has in itself just disproved you shout-out-loud rant. Kurdish activists in Turkey and in Europe seek to call as many people "Kurds" as they can, in order to increase Kurdish population numbers and thus their importance within Turkey. What next, will they be calling the Laz "Kurds"? Meowy 21:55, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Confusing

What does the article mean by "modern western in the Zaza language"? Makes no sense at all. - Jmabel | Talk 23:36, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Original research to be removed

Here is a pure OR: The first mention of the word Zaza appears on the Behistun Inscription. The text of the inscription is a statement by Darius I of Persia. In the inscription Darius says, “there (is) a town Zazana by name along the Euphrates.

First of all I want to make it clear that no scholar has ever linkd modern Zazas (Dimilis) with Zazana/Zozana of Behistun inscription.

second, The word Zazana of the Behistun inscription is connected to ancient Semitic Gozana (a toponym) and likely in ancient Semitic languages simply meant 'highland'.

thirdly in medieval documents this Zozana or Gozana is descripted as Zuzan al akrad i.e. highlands of Kurds and not Zazas or others. So unfortunately it has nothing to do with Zazas.

Fourth; Another important OR point is that actually the original name of Zazas id Dimili and scholars largely consider it to be the same as Daylami, that is people from Daylamistan from northern Iran. Scholars such as Minorsky and Mackenzie suggest around 12th century AD as date of migration of some tribes of Daylamis from northern Iran to parts of Kurdish mountains.

I'll remove all OR data. Sharishirin (talk) 11:39, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Turks and Other

Turks and others are trying to split up the kurdish people by saying "no, this tribe are not kurds, they are "zazas"

Well listen to the Zazas themself!!! They say they are kurds, and indeed they look like kurds, they have kurdish culture only their language is a bit from kurdish but still close. Even DNA shows they are Kurds!!!

There are maybe THOUSANDS of tribes in Kurdistan, all are KURDS so you can't say they have annother tribe name so it is an ethnicity. --Kurdalo (talk) 15:43, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, I am amazed that in this article and the article about the Qizilbashi, there are is no mention at all of the fact that this people are generally considered Kurds. These articles conflict with the articles about Kurds in Wikipedia, which also spell Qizilbashi as Kizilbashi, as though they are a different group. There can be differences of opinion, but when so many people claim these people are Kurds, it must at least be mentioned. Whose political agenda does this reflect? Zaza and Kizilbashi raised the standard of Kurdish rebellion in Turkey. Can this really be ignored? You can also check this summary, which has yet another view, but lists the Zaza as Kurds - http://orvillejenkins.com/peoples/kurds.html. Likewise the question of whether Zaza is a pejorative term should at least be mentioned. [[Mewnews (talk) 21:06, 3 September 2008 (UTC)]]

POV

I added a POV template. It's obvious that the writers of this article have done everything to remove all Kurdish links with Zazaki speaking people. In my family there are as much Zazaki speaking people as there are Kurmanji speaking people and they al consider themselve Kurds. Some of the most famous rebellions in Turkey were done by Zazaki speakers and they claimed to be Kurdish and fought for the Kurdish cause[3]. Seeing Zazaki speakers as a different ethnicity is something of the last 20 years and has no historical evidence because there is NO historical literature on Zazaki speakers. DNA does NOT support a different origin of Zazaki speakers [4]. It's all part of the divide and conquer politics in Turkey and that includes seeing Alevis as a different ethnicity (I am an alevi Kurd myself).--Bijikurdistan (talk) 09:27, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I do not understand this. I just recently found out that me and my family are no longer kurds who speak zaza-dialect, now we are "zazas".

Well, why not create another ethnic group... hmm.. I have always wondered if the irish of northern Ireland really are irish. NO! They are Northirelandians. And now I will type this everywhere here in this stupid encyclopedia where people just can write anything about everything!!!

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Zaza_people" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.140.70.16 (talk) 05:22, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Well you obviously took the wrong conclusions my friend since there is no certainty about the ethnicity of Zazas. That's what happens when Wikipedia allows people to write their propaganda and thats their biggest weakness at the same time. In controversial articles it is not the truth that will eventually be written but the truth of the side with the most people willing to edit on Wikipedia. My POV tags keep getting deleted without normal arguments. This article is still POV and it remains so untill there is the same amount of text written about the theory that Zazaki speaking people are Kurds, as there is about the theory that they are a different ethnicity.--Bijikurdistan (talk) 10:02, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

By GOD! It sais that the "zaza" language is TELATED to the kurdish language!! Related?! It's just a different dialect!! Please change this, I doubt that there are any sources, except for perhaps turkish "scientists", whom whants to split the kurdish people... //Diyako —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.140.70.16 (talk) 00:42, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Move to Dimili people

The name Zaza is pejorative and is not used in academic encyclopedias. Sharishirin (talk) 13:30, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree, Zaza is a nickname for the Kurdish dialect of Dimilí. Just as Kurmanjí is called Zhé Babu, Soraní=Wawa, Gúraní=Macho Macho. These are all nicknames for the different Kurdish dialects that the Kurds use to describe the different dialect, although they are not very common today, with the exception of the nickname Zaza, however this is just a nickname the priper name is Dimilí. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.65.150.58 (talk) 22:51, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Removed part

For example you removed those information that was transferred existing sources (you can see them even in your propagated edition.)

• Martin van Bruinessen, "Kurdish Nationalism and Competing Ethnic Loyalties", Original English version of: "Nationalisme kurde et ethnicités intra-kurdes", Peuples Méditerranéens no. 68-69 (1994), pp. 11-37.

When asked to specify what constitutes their identity, most Kurds would mention language and religion first. Kurmanji and Zaza are both Iranian languages, grammatically quite different from Turkish, although their vocabularies contain many loan-words from Arabic and Turkish. Few, if any, Kurmanji speakers understand Zaza, but most Zaza speakers know at least some Kurmanji.

• Martin Bruinessen, "Kurdish Nationalism and Competing Ethnic Loyalties", Original English version of: "Nationalisme kurde et ethnicités intra-kurdes", Peuples Méditerranéens no. 68-69 (1994), 11-37.

In Turkey, some of the speakers of the Zaza language, who had always been considered, and had considered themselves, as Kurds, have started speaking of themselves as a separate people whose distinct identity has been denied not only by the Turkish state but by the Kurdish movement as well.

They included speakers of Kurdish proper as well as Zaza (in the Northwest) or Gurani (in the Southeast, with more isolated pockets throughout present Iraqi Kurdistan), Sunni Muslims as well as Shi`is and the adherents of the various heterodox sects in the region.

It was in debates within Turkey's Kurdish movement itself that the language question assumed grave importance: Zaza had to be declared a Kurdish dialect, not a related but different language, for the second alternative would by Stalin's definition exclude the Zaza-speakers from the Kurdish nation. Later some of the Zaza-speakers were to perceive in this attitude of the Kurdish movement towards Zaza a precise parallel to the way the Turkish authorities had declared Kurdish to be a Turkish dialect. The rigid insistence on linguistic unity as a criterion for nationhood in Stalin's definition thus indirectly became one of the factors contributing to the recent emergence of a separatist Zaza nationalism.

• Hakan Özoğlu, Kurdish Notables and the Ottoman State, State University of New York Press, 2004, p. 32.

Hani seems to use the word "Kurd" or its Arabic plural "al-Akrad" interchangeably with Kurmanci. This fact clearly testifies that This fact clearly testifies that Hani regards the Kurmanci speakers as Kurds; yet it is not very clear whether he regards other groups - such as the Zazas, Lurs or Kelhurs as Kurds.

The Zazas, a subgroup that is traditionally considered Kurdish, have been reexamining their own identity, and there exists a rponounced Zaza identity independent from the Kurdish.

• Hakan Özoğlu, Kurdish Notables and the Ottoman State, State University of New York Press, 2004, p. 42.

Moreover, the Zazas, a subgroup that is traditionally considered Kurdish, have been reexamining their own identity, and there exists a rponounced Zaza identity independent from the Kurdish.

• Hakan Özoğlu, Kurdish Notables and the Ottoman State, State University of New York Press, 2004, p. 122.

In the same way, the Zaza (Dimli), at present dispute claims that they are of Kurdish origin. A distinct Zaza nationalism became more visible particulary in the last decade of the twentieth century,...

• Durk Gorter, Guus Extra, The Other Languages of Europe: Demographic, Sociolinguistic, and Educational Perspectives, Multilingual Matters, 2001, ISBN 9781853595097, p. 418.

It is different from Kurdic languages. Zaza and Kurdic languages are not mutually comprehensible. Different from Kurdic people, Kurdic people. Zaza identity is effectively based firstly on language.

Takabeg (talk) 12:55, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

takabeg I mentioned it fifty times. You removed sources like this two

http://www.zazaki.net/haber/among-social-kurdish-groups-general-glance-at-zazas-503.htm http://www.scribd.com/doc/35883517/Kurds

and replaced it by a source which doesen´t exist and is a newspaper! http://www.kenthaber.com/Arsiv/Haberler/2007/Mart/22/Haber_217409.aspx

You only quoted parts of the sources which were taking in account the linguistic issue and have nothing to say about the Zaza considering themselves as Kurds or not.

You did not even mentioned the parts about the ethnic issue like this.

Van bruinessen

Virtually all Zaza speakers consider themselves, and are considered by the Kurmanji speakers, as Kurds.

This is important for the issue of zaza considering themselves as Kurds and not that most Zaza can speak Kurmanji and only some Kurmanj Zazaki.

And all of your other Sources are just pointing out that their is a small circle of diaspora Zaza nationalists claiming to be a separate group and not one single pointing out if zaza are kurds or not. If the majority do consider themselves as Kurds or not.

I didn´t "removed" your sources i simply moved it back to how it was at least tried it because you removed first sources added by me. Wikisupporting (talk) 13:10, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

You still didn´t give me any scientific source talking about your "facts" And calling Zaza are Kurds being kind of my religion is simply a insult. Wikisupporting (talk) 13:12, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

You can see scientific sources in Talk:Zaza people. If I didn't provide them, you must have read them. Because you used them. But your usage was wrong.

As long as I know there are three theses:

1. "Zazas are Zazas". (separeted from Kurdish group)

2. "Zazas are Kurds". (part of Kurdish group) this is yours

3. "Zazas are Turkomans". (assimilated Turkoman)

I think third thesis was created on the purpose of the assimilation policy of the government of the Republic of Turkey. But 1 and 2 existed before propagandas of Turkish government and Kurdish nasionalists. Now parties are making use of these theses.

In short, Turkish government tried to assimilate minorities, especially Kurdish people. Kurdish people to trying to assimilate Zazas.

Takabeg (talk) 13:17, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Again. What some People write on a Talk Page isn´t a source. Every person can come here claim to be of any ethnicity and say such things. Where are your sources exactly pointing out Zaza do not identify themselves as Kurds.

1. There is no Thesis about Zaza being a separate ethnic Group. Only a thesis about the language Zazaki being separate from Kurmanji Kurdish. 2. The language is only one factor of your identity. how can there be a "thesis" about if Zaza are Kurds or not when they do consider themselves as Kurds? Since when are we people in the position to decide such issues?

I can start tomorrow a discussion about if Punjabis are Indians cause they speak a different language than Tamils. Do I have the right for this? Of course not.Wikisupporting (talk) 13:31, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

My 2¢:

Opinions are irrelevant when someone else has a contradictory opinion. That's why we need to follow WP:Reliable sources for anything that's challenged.

Zazaki is clearly now considered a different language than Kurdish. For that matter, Kurmanji may be considered a different language than other varieties of Kurdish; does that mean the Kurmanji are not Kurds? Although we tend to identify people by their language, that doesn't mean that Zazas are not Kurds—nor, for that matter, that they are Kurds. After all, many Zaza speak Turkish, but that doesn't make them Turks. An example from another country: In China, the Zhuang consider themselves to be Chinese, or at least they used to. This isn't a Zazaki–Kurdish type situation, which would be more like Cantonese and Hakka: Zhuang isn't even in the same language family as Chinese, yet they consider(ed) their language to be a dialect of Chinese ! In the 19th century, Zazaki was considered to be a dialect of Kurdish. Now it's seen as a separate language (see refs below). However, that doesn't address the question of whether the Zaza people are Kurds, which is more a matter of opinion of the Zaza than anything else. Ethnicity is not defined by language alone: Serbs are not Croats, despite speaking the same language (however much they may protest that obvious fact). All I could find on the Zaza–Kurd question was the rather non-committal statement below: "There have been ongoing emotional discussions [my emphasis] among Zazas and Kurds for the past 20–25 years as to whether the Zaza form a separate people, or nation". Something like that may be the best we can do: We don't have to answer the question; our job is only to summarize the literature on the subject. — kwami (talk) 13:56, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

From Europe: Zurich Germans, Berlin Germans, and Hamburg Germans speak different languages. Yet they're all Germans, and they consider their language to be German dialects, even though they cannot understand each other. Croats, Serbs, Montenegrins, and Bosniaks all speak the same dialect of the same language, yet they are separate nations. Whether Zazaki is a dialect of Kurdish or a separate language may be used as an arguing point over whether the Zaza are or are not Kurds, but it doesn't decide the issue. Ethnicity is a matter of self-identification. — kwami (talk) 14:02, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

This is exactly my point kwami and I gave this examples also. A Language doesen´t mean ethnicity. There are even much extremer examples like The Kartvelian ethnic group of Georgia which speak three different but related languages like Zani, Svani and Kartvelian but still all of them consider themselves Kartvelian and are recognized as such. The Kurmanji and Zazaki however both belong to the Northwest Iranian language Group! most Indian languages are so heavily different from each other but still all of them are ethnically called Indians even before the establishment of a state called India. The same with Chinese ethnic people.

Today it is on debate if the Zaza langauge is not kurdish. but this isn´t really the case for the ethnicity. And if you look on my version which was edited you can see under the section Ethnogenesis that I mentioned this issue.

Here are some sources pointing exactly out that Zaza consider themselves as Kurds and use Kurd as self-designation.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=LuVSkpVuAkAC&pg=PA385&dq=zaza+paul+ludwig&hl=de&ei=sFUCTpvML8-OswbH4smODQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=zaza%20paul%20ludwig&f=false

page 386.

" Die Mehrzahl der Sprecher des Zazaki bezeichnet sich heute als Kurden und hält ihre Sprache für einen kurdischen Dialekt."

translated

"The majority of the Zazaki Speakers today call themselves Kurds and consider their language as a kurdish Dialect.

page 390

"Zaza and kurmanj Kurds build ethno-cultural unity"

http://www.let.uu.nl/~martin.vanbruinessen/personal/publications/Bruinessen_Ethnic_identity_Kurds.pdf

"This makes it necessary for me to state at the outset precisely whom I mean when in this article I use the ethnic label "Kurds". For pragmatic reasons I use a rather loose and wide definition, including all native speakers of dialects belonging to the Iranic languages Kurmanji or Zaza,"

This is the linguist part. I think we both agree that Zazaki is not a dialect of Kurmanji but a language.

"as well as those Turkish speaking persons who claim descent from Kurmanji or Zaza speakers and who still (or again) consider themselves as Kurds"

These are the Zaza and Kurmanj from which I told you who are partly assimilated (linguistically ) but still consider themselves Kurdish.

"if any, Kurmanji speakers understand Zaza, but most Zaza speakers know at least some Kurmanji. Virtually all Zaza speakers consider themselves, and are considered by the Kurmanji speakers, as Kurds."

" Since the Zazaki-speakers analyzed here self-identify as Kurds (Donald Stilo, personal communication)"

http://www.scribd.com/doc/35883517/Kurds ,see page 3

led by the biggest known organisation in Turkey and articles written by Zaza intellectuals like Rosan lezgin

http://www.zazaki.net/haber/among-social-kurdish-groups-general-glance-at-zazas-503.htm

Wikisupporting (talk) 14:07, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Zaza being a Partian Group?

Erdemaslancan. I have just informed the Admin that you have removed all the scientific sources added by me without reason and replaced it with a source not even pointing out Zaza being Partian. Don´t change the article without any evidences if you do so this will probably not end in a good way for you because I will definitely inform the admin again.

Ok while he didn´t give a statement about why he changed the article the Admin has blocked him.

Wikisupporting (talk) 08:00, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

This user (Erdemaslancan) and his crew ruin Zazaki Wikipedia[[5]]. Somebody should stop them. They just start new articles but all content is same, copy and paste. or most of articles are empty. they try to show that there are many articles in zazaki. but this is a lie. there is not anything new. there were 4,000 articles 10 days ago , but today there are nearly 11,000 articles and just 2 wikipedians are working in Zazaki , Mirzali , Erdemaslancan = 85.104.238.253 = Abramoviç (same person with two nicknames and unregistered) . So , how come these guys can help wikipedia? Mirzali is admin and he doesnt let Zaza guys to write articles in real zaza alphabet. He and his crew block zaza guys. Who can help to stop these guys? Wikipedia is free but not for such culture-killer. -Gomada 19:30, 02 July 2011 (UTC)

Neutrality

As we know, there are various theses about Zazas' language and ethnicity. Besides theses by scholars, unfortunately there are several political propaganda on Zazas' ethnicity and language. the most famous of these are the Turkish government's sponsored propaganda and the Kurdish nationalis' propaganda. There are also main two group, even among Zazas themselves. In last edition, we can detect strong inclination to the thesis of the Kurdish nationalist. Some users try to give an impression that Zazas are belonging to the Kurdish branch. Takabeg (talk) 00:08, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Takabeg , Whats your problem about Kurds? If you wanna contribute to wikipedia, do something good ;) Dont waste your time with your own thesis (: You can not succeed , because you cant change reality! -Gomada 20:00, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

before making such statements and claiming please provide source showing us that beside linguistic issues there is any international scientist beside those having obvious political Agendas claiming the Zaza ethnically separated. Even the linguist Paul Ludwig which considers the Zazaki language as independent says that it is impossible to separate the Zaza ethnically from the Kurds. By talking about "Kurdish nationalists". let me ask are ethnologists like "Van Bruinessen" or linguists "like Paul Luwdig" Kurdish Nationalists? Do the millions of Zaza consider themselves as Kurds and call their language Kirdki (Kurdish) since centuries because of recent "Kurdish Nationalism"? Let me ask what makes a People? Is it their language? Is it their culture, the History or the self-designation? Of course over all it is the self designation which is let by factors like culture, history and language. We can see on examples like India, Afghanistan, China, Swiss, Belgium, Pakistan and Iran that a People doesen´t need to speak the same language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikisupporting (talk • contribs) 00:26, 2 July 2011 (UTC) Wikisupporting (talk) 00:28, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

If you want we can discuss this issue on my talkpage. I am ready to hear your opinion and see if it fits with my opinions and that of scholars. Wikisupporting (talk) 00:46, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

First of all, I reccomend you separate debates on the ethnic identity of the Zazas and language of Zazas (Zazaki). Debates on their language must be written in the article Zazaki.

• User:Wikisupporting removed http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1529-8817.2005.00174.x/full and changed terms: Kurds -> kurmanji, Sorani with this edit
• Same user removed http://www.iranica.com/articles/dimli and changed words Iranian peoples -> Kurdish group with in this edit

These edits clearly indicates typical discourse of the Kurdish nationalists' thesis. We can understand easily what this user try to do in neutral encyclopedia only by these two edits. Takabeg (talk) 00:52, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Look I just friendly asked you to provide sources showing us that beside the linguistic issue there is any scientist pointing exactly out that Zaza ethnically are not Kurdish and you still didn´t answer my question. Why do the Zaza consider themselves as Kurds?

What is wrong about changing a part where "Kurds" is mentioned beside linguistic groups while their is no uniform "Kurdish People". So I simply changed kurdish into Sorani and Kurmanji because they are also Groups of Kurds and I thought it would be much more revealing to show what with "Kurds" is meant

And about the edit indicating my "kurdish nationalism" This article was about a genetic Study showing us that Zaza consider themselves as Kurds. A link with this study already existed here -> http://www.scribd.com/doc/35883517/Kurds

So why have the same study two times as source? And why should I remove this source if it clearly points out on page 3 that the Zaza consider themselves as Kurds?

And I did not remove the link from iranica about the dimili. I simply changed the part "Iranian People" with "Iranian languages" because Iranian People can easily be mistaken with them being from Iran.

see under "Notes" number 10.

If the whole discussion here is going about you accusing me of things I never did. Than I see no point on going on with it.

stop with your false allegations.

Wikisupporting (talk) 01:05, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

I am open for any discussion but please stop accusing me for wrong things.

You should first explain me a few things.

1. Why do Zaza consider themselves as Kurds?

2. Why do they call themselves Kird(what basically means Kurds), Kirmanj( what is the same terminology with Kurmanj) or dimli( what was a known kurdish group according to historic sources like the Sherefname)?

3. Why two of the biggest as kurdish known rebellions started with Zazaki speaking clans (Sheikh Said and Seyit Riza rebellions.?

4. Why did the geographic neighbors always knew and called the Zazaki group Kurds (Armenians, Arabs and Persians for example)?

5. Why do even linguists point out that it is impossible to separate the Zazaki speakers from the kurmanji Kurds and even point out that those two groups form a ethno-cultural unity?

6 Why do the only known genetic studies point out that the theory, "the Zaza might have originated in North Iran and moved to Anatolia" is not supported by genetic evidences and that they are genetically closest to Kurmanji speaking Kurds and surprisingly differentiable from historic neighbors like Armenians, Turks, Iranians so the " it is due geographic closeness" doesen´t works.

Taking in account that since I asked you three times you didn´t gave me any answer. I think this issue is solved for now and will remove the dispute message. You are always welcome on my talk board if there is still need of a debate.Wikisupporting (talk) 01:52, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand why you don't want to refer to other theses ? As you know there are various theses. You try to prove only one thesis among them. This your approach significantly undermines the neutrality of this article. Takabeg (talk) 02:21, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Takabeg I will mentioned it a fourth time for you. Stop accusing me for things. There are no thesis about the ethnic origin of Zaza not being kurdish. Only thesis about the linguistic classification of Zazaki. So about which thesis are you talking now? I gave you enough examples how a Group of People can talk two or three different languages at ones. See the Afghans which talk Tajiki(Persian) and Pashto which one of them even belong to the west and the other east iranian language group.

almost no single scientist ever made another thesis about the ethnicity of Zaza. The Thesis you are reffering to are exclusively about the linguistic part.

And you should stop putting POV on the article even while you couldn´t afford sources for your allegation. First show me sources saying that the majority of Zaza feel as as separate group from kurmanji Kurds than I will add them into the article. You seem to be calm Person so I tried to be friendly and also have a open ear for you. But if you are going to only accuse me for things and ad POV on the article just because you have a different opinion, than I am going to report this. Wikisupporting (talk) 02:27, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't have any opinion. We know that some scholars said they are Kurdish origin. Others denied it. Furthermore, some Turkish scolars (for example Yusuf Halaçoğlu) claims that Zazas are Turkomans :)) Last claim doesn't carry conviction as academic researches. Anyway it is fact that there are several theories and theses about theri ethnic identity and language. However, unfortunately you try to prove only Kurdish nationalists' one. Takabeg (talk) 07:42, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

P.S. And I want to know "Armenian" thesis. Takabeg (talk) 07:44, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Yusuf Halacoglu has political agendas and the Turkoman origin is a joke he diidn´t give any example fot that. OK MY FRIEND YOU HAVE GONE TO FAR. YOU changed the whole article and added it with linguistic which is nosnense for the identity of Zaza. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikisupporting (talk • contribs) 08:22, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

For me, Halaçoğlu's argument is bad joke. He was a sympathizer of MHP and became member of this party in Januray 2011. Now he is MP of Kayseri from MHP). Takabeg (talk) 08:31, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

So if you know that why are you arguing with him as a source and why did you edit the article without any sources claiming your point, using only linguist issue about zazaki being not Kurdish but not Zaza as a ethnicity and you removed all of my sources without reason! You are accusing me of "kurdish nationalism" just because Zaza consider themselves as Kurds but instead you are making a new formed "Zaza Nationalism"Wikisupporting (talk) 08:35, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Please read Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a soapbox or means of promotion especially part related with propaganda and stop your POV pushing vandalism. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 09:50, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

How old are you? How is it POV when the Zaza consider themselves as Kurds and are also considered as such by ethnologists? There is no contended dispute between "those who believe that Zaza are Kurdish and those who rejekt it" only a dispute between those who believe "Zazaki is a kurdish dialect and those who rejected it". And who are you to reject what the Zaza are if they consider themselves as Kurd. I asked you this now over 5 times are you somehow not able to answer this question ? All sources which were added before are shown and I did not remove any of them unlike you who tried to start a edit war. You are just not able to separate linguistic from ethnicity and this is your problem not ours.

Better you should read the sentence and stop making Vandalism. Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a soapbox or means of promotion especially part related with propaganda Wikisupporting (talk) 10:55, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

I've reverted to the June 17 version before the two of you started this dispute, and protected the article. Please take the time to work out your disagreement. I suggest you convince other editors of the changes you want to make before you start unilaterally imposing them again, or I'll start handing out blocks.

Contested claims require reliable sources. Please read what 'reliable' means – it may not mean what you think is reliable.

Also, content disputes are not vandalism. Calling each other vandals over a disagreement of opinion or fact will result in the rest of us taking neither of you seriously. — kwami (talk) 12:39, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Genetic study of Zaza+Kurds

Please take a look at [6] page 7, look at graphs, the upper one is based on mtDNA ( maternal ancestory) and the one below is y-chromosome (paternal ancestory). This graph includes Kurds, Iran Tehran(Ir-T), Iran Isfahan (Ir-I), Lur, Gilaki (Gil), Mazandarani (Maz). They are clustered with Kurds and rest of Iranians. It was interesting for me that in terms of Y-chromosome haplogroups how close they were to Iranians of Tehran. --76.67.101.225 (talk) 17:11, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

You are using a Genetic Study which suppoerts that Zaza are Kurds as a indication for them being cloth to Iranians Teheran just because of Haplogroups? Haplogroups are just a part of your ancestry. The autosomal DNA of Zazaki and Kurmanji speakers is almost the same and different from that of Iranians. Wikisupporting (talk) 11:37, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Many Zaza refer themselves as Kurds

According to my own experience about what I have seen and studied, most of the Zaza people refer themselves as Kurds, although the zaza language/dialect is quiet different from kurmanji or sorani dialect of Kurdish, but close to Gorani dialect (language?) of Kurdish. But referring to being a Kurd doesn't mean that you have to speak one unified language or dialect, because the Kurds speak different dialect and the Kurdish language can be seen as a "Kurdish multi-language". Being a Kurd means to belonging to the historically region of Kurdistan that has a history of more than 9,000 years.--88.151.43.53 (talk) 21:00, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Salam! Races and Ethnic groups are matters of taste, there is no clear cut distinction between different languages in a language family. But the fact that they refer to themselves as kurds does not justify that their language is a subgroup of the Kurdish languages:

1) One must at least keep a certain level of consistency when forming language families and declaring Zazaki as a separate language. if Zazaki is a subset of Kurdish, then we must check whether the status of Gilaki and other median languages is maintained and our theories still apply.

2) I think the academic way of treating different languages is based on their evolution, if Kurdish and Zazaki are both direct descendants of a certain middle Iranian language, then they are more likely to be cognates and not a subset of each other. Besides, if Zazaki and kurdish are mutually intelligible languages, that's not still a strong proof either.

3) The fact that Zazas call themselves Kurds is not a justification for their language to be a Kurdish language. Kurdish was not a word to refer to languages, but rather to refer to Iranian people living in certain regions.

4) The 9,000 years you are talking about is a blatant lie. The Kurds migrated to the Iranian Plateau along with other Iranians around 3000 years ago, although the region we call Kurdistan has been there for millions of years before that, the Kurds where not.حضرت محمود (talk) 12:19, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

I want to refer to the thing that you the Kurds have a history of 9,000 years. The history of 3,000 you said is a thought that the Kurds have come from the Medes, but that has according to new sources not true, because the Medes are a people who migrated from India to Middle east and where lated integrated with the Kurds who lived in northern Middle East. And new sources that I have seen in trustworthy documentary in tv (I have unfortunately no reference to what in internet) that the existence of an endo-europic people in northern middle east (that is the Kurds) have a history of back to 9,000 years ago. God has decided that, rather you or I can change it.83.248.3.2 (talk) 11:45, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

genetic tests doesen´t support evidence. http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Kurds.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.58.176.216 (talk) 22:54, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

a couple sources

Okay, I'm checking a couple of the sources I have on hand in case they can help out. These are mainstream sources and AFAIK reflect the general consensus in the academic community, which is what we want per WP:RS.

• Routledge Language Family Series (2009) The Iranian Languages, ed. Windfuhr;
  • Intro
    • North-West Iranian is represented by Zazaki, Kurdish, and Balochi
    • not discussed in this volume are challenging recent studies that, with due caution, investigate the correlation of regional gene pools of contemporary populations with language groups and language shifts (rather than populations shifts) for which small elites are often sufficient, as shown for example in the study of the origin of the Kurdish- and Zazaki-speaking populations by Hennerbichler (forthc.)
  • Chapter "Zazaki", Ludwig Paul.
    • Linguistically, Zazaki is a North-West Iranian language, more closely related to Gôrānī and the (Iranian) Āzari dialects than to Kurdish.
      The history of Zazaki studies began in 1856, with P. I. Lerch's recordings of about 40 pages of text (including a German translation) in Zazaki, which at that time was still considered a Kurdish dialect.
    • There are no reliable statistics about the number of Zazaki speakers. In SE Anatolia they might number between 1.5 and 2 million. About the same number of Zaza may have emigrated to the urban centers of Western Anatolia, and to Western Europe, during the last 40 years. These numbers include all ethnic Zaza, however, many of whom (esp. the younger generation) have been assimilated to Turkish or Kurdish meantime. Another (apparently declining) part of the Zaza, although still speaking their mother tongue, have traditionally considered themselves as Kurds speaking a dialect of Kurdish. There have been ongoing emotional discussions among Zazas and Kurds for the past 20–25 years as to whether the Zaza form a separate people, or nation, and accordingly whether their form of speech may, or must, be called a separate (non-Kurdish) language. In most parts of the Zaza's home country there also live many Turks or Kurds, e.g. 50 percent of Turks in the city of Enzincan, or 50 percent of Kurds in Siverek and Varto. The most important cities with a predominant Zaza population are Çermik, Tunceli and Bingōl.
      In the Republic of Turkey, Zazaki shares with (Kurmanci) Kurdish the status of a minority language, but (like Kurdish) it is not granted the rights that minority languages usually have in Europe.
    • The most important single language to influence Zazaki over time has been (Kurmanci) Kurdish.

• (2006) Encyclopedia of Language and Linguistics, 2nd edition
  • Section "Iranian Languages", P O Skjærvø, Harvard U
    • Kurdish (northern, central, and southern) is spoken in three principal variants in eastern Turkey and Syria, northern Iraq, and western Iran, as well as in surrounding areas.
    • [listing non-literary languages] Zaza (Dimli) in eastern Turkey
    • Among these languages [in Iraq], Kurdish [Kurdi] has the largest community. Kurds have a standard written language and several dialects such as Bajelani, Mukri, Garrusi, Sulaymani, Kolya’I, Zangana, Kermanshahi, Surchi, Herki, and Kurmanji or Northern Kurdish, with the dialects Hakari and Jezire. Other important languages of this group are Gurani, also known as Hawrami or Hawramani, and Zaza [Dimili].
  • Section "Kurdish", same author
    • Kurdish is spoken in three main variants: Northern Kurdish, comprising Kurmanji in the west and dialects spoken from Armenia to Kazakhstan; Central Kurdish, spoken in northeastern Iraq (called Sorani) and adjacent areas in Iran (called Kordi or Mokri), as well as in Iranian Kurdistan (called Senne’i); and Southern Kurdish, spoken in Kermanshah province in western Iran (including Lakki and Lori of Posht-e Kuh). Northern and Central Kurdish developed rich literatures from the early 20th century on.
      [no mention is made of Zazaki in the article]

— kwami (talk) 13:43, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Thank you very mush 神鏡. Language (Zazaki) is also important factor, but this article is related with ethnic group. Takabeg (talk) 16:53, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Takabeg ironically you were the person who used language as a factor the most!

I simply pointed out that linguistic point of view should be taken in account but not more than the self-designation and culture, and religion because the self-designation is the most important factor and every humans right! You can´t take away from Zaza that they are Kurd just because of recent linguistic issues pointing out that their language is not Kurdish. Wikisupporting (talk) 20:45, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Sources which provide that Zaza consider themselves as Kurds and that there is no "Zaza identity in the meaning of nationality".

http://www.alevi.dk/ENGELSK/THE_ALEVI_OF_ANATOLIA.pdf

The Alevi constitute the second largest religious community in Turkey (following the Sunnis), and number some 25% (15 million) of the total population (Alevis claim 30%-40%!). Most Alevis are ethnic and linguistic Turks, mainly of Turkmen descent from Central and Eastern Anatolia. Some 20% of Alevis are Kurds (though most Kurds are Sunnis), and some 25% of Kurds in Turkey are Alevi (Kurmanji and Zaza speakers).

ZAZA ALEVI OF TUNCELLI (DERSIM) Dersim (Tunceli) province is the centre of the Kurdish Zaza speaking Alevis and it suffers from the double defect of being both religiously Alevi and ethnically Kurdish. The mixing of Alevi leftism with Kurdish separatism in this remote province has made it a thorn in the side of every central government since Sultan Selim The Grim. It remains the least developed of Turkey's provinces. The Zaza (Dimli) language belongs to a different Iranian language sub-branch from Kurmanji, and speakers of these languages cannot understand each other. The Zaza claim all Kurds were Alevi until converted by force to Sunnism. Although usually seen as Kurds, there is traditional enmity between Alevi Zaza Kurds and Sunni Kurds speaking Kurmaji. Zaza Alevis see themselves mainly as Alevis and oppose tendencies to divide Alevism into Turkish and Kurdish communities. However, as Kurdish nationalism grows, more and more Zaza speakers decide to prioritise their Kurdish identity over their Alevi identity.

Some Zazakis claim that they are not Kurds but a separate ethnic group and that Zazaki is not a Kurdish language, but a different Iranian dialect. Some of the Zaza immigrants to the West have formulated a new ideology of a separate Zaza nation demanding autonomy in the Zaza populated areas of Turkey.

This shows us, that it is not the rule that zaza consider themselves as a separate ethnic Group. And that this is all based on the ideology of a small circle of diaspora Zaza and has not taken really foot in Turkey and almost all Zaza consider themselves as Kurds.

http://users.htcomp.net/kishwork/kurdprof.pdf , Page 3

SOCIETY Language Kurds are speakers of Kurdish, a part of the Indo-European family of languages. It is fundamentally different from Semetic Arabic and Altaic Turkish. Modern Kurdish divides into two major groups: 1) the Kurmanji group and, 2) the Dimili-Gurani group. These are supplemented by scores of sub-dialects as well. The most popular vernacular spoken by about three-quarters of the Kurds is Kurmanji. To the far north of Kurdistan along Kizil Irmak and Murat rivers in Turkey, Dimili(commonly known as Zaza) dialect is spoken by about 4 million Kurds. Until recently it was forbidden to speak Kurmanji in Turkey. All education is in Turkish. In Turkey Kurmanji is written using a modified form of the Latin alphabet. In the neighboring countries it is written in Arabic script.

http://www.amazon.com/Zaza-Kurds-Turkey-Minority-Globalised/dp/1845118758

The Zaza Kurds of Turkey: A Middle Eastern Minority in a Globalised Society (Library of Modern Middle East Studies)" Turkey, a country at the very intersection between Europe and the Middle East, is comprised of a plethora of ethnicities and minority groups. There is however very little official data about many of its chief minorities. The Zazas are one such group: a Kurdish people speaking the Zaza dialect, and living as a distinct people in the eastern Anatolian provinces. In this book, Mehmet S. Kaya investigates all aspects of Zaza life: kinship, economy, culture, identity, gender relations, patriarchy and religion. His fieldwork among local communities in the Zaza area sheds light upon the ways in which this Middle Eastern minority has maintained its way of life and cultural identity in today’s globalized society. This book provides valuable insights into a people about whom little is known, and will be of interest within the fields of Middle East Studies, Islamic Studies, Minority Studies and Diaspora Studies. About the Author Mehmet S. Kaya received his PhD in Sociology and Social Anthropology from the Norwegian University of Science and Technology (NTNU) in Trondheim. He is Associate Professor at Lillehammer University College, Norway.

Wikisupporting (talk) 21:54, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Page 34-35 http://books.google.com/books?id=CttLWEaTrJUC&pg=PA35&dq=the+zaza+kurds&hl=de&ei=AU4QTpSxOtDz-gbv58DGDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false Wikisupporting (talk) 11:24, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Some examples of ethnic groups with more than one language.

1. Persians: According to Dr. Jost Gippert (linguist) Tajiki, dari and Farsi are three languages spoken by Persians. Zoroastrians added who although are Persians speaking not new Persian but middle persian language which is different and a own language.

2. Georgians(Kartvelians): They speak 3-4 different languages Kartvelian, Svani, Zani and sometimes added Laz but are considered one ethnic Group.

3. Germans: Bavarian and Low-German do not build dialects of echt other but are separate languages. interestingly Low-German has stronger ties to Dutch( another ethnicity) than it has to other German languages like Bavarian or standard German.

4. People of Daghestan, many of them see themselves as one ethnicity and have according to linguists, independent and separate languages! Lezghian languages (plural) but lezgian ethnicity( singular)

5. Persians and Hazara: same language and same religion but not the same ethnicity.

6. Turkey-Turks: almost same language as Azerbaijanis but different ethnicities

7. Spaniards, Argentinians, Chileans, Columbian, Mexicans the same ethnicity?????

language ≠ ethnicity

My opinion.

Wikisupporting (talk) 22:36, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

This is not my patch but Ludwig Paul (http://www.aai.uni-hamburg.de/voror/Personal/Paul.html) who has a degree in the topic describes the issue as follows in Kurdisch Wort für Wort (my translation from German): [...] Because it differes strongly from Kurdish in some points, the following offers a short overview over Zazaki grammar. [...] Linguistically Zazaki can be classed as an independent language which, however, is closely related to Kurdish (similar to the relationship between German and Dutch). A totally different issue is if Zazas are Kurds or not. In this issue, religion and politics play a key role. Zazas are split about half and half into Aleviate (i.e. Shiites) and Sunnites with most Alevites to the North of the Zazaki speaking area and most Sznnites towards the South. As most Kurmanci speaking Kurds are Sunnites, especially the Sunnite Zazas feel consider themselves Kurds. But there are also Alevite Zazas who feel a political link to the Kurds and label themselves Kurds.

"Kurdish thinking" Zazas thus deem Zazaki as a Kurdish dialect, "Zaza thinking" Zazas as an independent language. The debates which have risen up in the last few years have nothing to do with language anymore but are purely political.

Hope that helps in some way. Akerbeltz (talk) 13:41, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Gah I wish people would watch their formatting a bit. You're on thin ice there with Swedish and Norwegian mate... Akerbeltz (talk) 22:44, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

I translate from this Encyclopedia which uses Paul Ludwigs as reference.

Ludwig Paul: Zaza, Kirmanc, Dimli and Kird (Synonyms for Zaza), build in ethno-cultural view a part of the kurdish people. Under "cultural" he understands in a broad sense, the religion, literature, customs, "material culture" (food, clothing etc.)(L. Paul, 98;390). Social-ethnic differences between the Kurmanj and Zaza are scarce; Most Zaza just like the Kurmanj are organized in tribes, and earlier they joined together with Kurmanj in tribal confederations. Numerous tribal confederations in Tunceli(Dersim) or Bingöl(Cewlik) had both Kurmanj and Zaza members, although they were mostly Zaza-speaking, as an example one could mention the Motikan, Qûrêyşan, Qoçgirî, Şadiyan, Çarekan etc.. Another commonality between Zaza and the Kurmanj is their oral heritage: „When we look, for example, at the literature, we note, that the tales of the region are attributed essentially to the same historical traditions" (P. Ludwig, 94;47). http://www.kurdica.com/News-sid-Zazaisten-594.html

Wikisupporting (talk) 00:46, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

till now in every historic mentioning of the Dimili (the main Synonym for Zaza) like the Sharafnama, written in 1597! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharafnama

They are counted as one of the kurdish tribes.

I translate from German Wikipedia article about the Dimli which is the tribes name of Zaza.

The Dimli, Dunbuli or Dumbuli are a tribe in North- and Central Kurdistan..... Dimli is used in the linguistic as a Synonym for Zazaki because the Dimli-Kurds in the provinz Sanliurfa speak Zazaki. In North Iraq and Erzurum they speak the Kurmandschi

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimili http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0SBL/is_1-2_20/ai_n16726258/?tag=content;col1

Even in the university of Columbia they are recognized and counted as Kurds while their language is listed in a separate Group from Kurdmanschi Kurdish but listed under Kurdish as "umbrella" Term for languages spoken by Kurds.

http://gulf2000.columbia.edu/images/maps/Mid_East_Linguistic_lg.jpg

http://gulf2000.columbia.edu/maps.shtml

From past to present there was not a single period of time where the Zaza were considered a own and different ethnic Group. so downplaying the whole issue by seeing it only as a "political question" is very wrong in my opinion and this "political argument" is usually used to generalize the whole issue to a "political and linguistic" debate.

1. Some one has to ask himself why do zaza consider themselves as Kurds?

2. Why are they referred as Kurds in every known historic source before the 20 century? Were someone might not suspect a political motivation.

3. Why till now haven´t we seen any Sources claiming the opposite but almost all organizations and universities of the World count them as a People of Kurds?

For me the everything is clear the only thing which might be on debate is the "kurdishness" of the Zazaki Language.

I hope the Sources did help.

Wikisupporting (talk) 01:41, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

zazas are kurds! we zazas and kurmancs are gorub of kurdish nation !

zaza (dimli is an kurdish dialect ,edit this page please... source : http://www.institutkurde.org/en/language/ http://www.kurdishacademy.org/?q=node/41

turkish and iranian states starded a zaza game ; they want to divide kurds with zaza and kurmanc!they make only Fake language maps!

wwe are with zaza ,kurmanci,loran,gorani,sorani  : the kurdish people.!

and my father is a zaza Kurd and my mother is kurmanci Kurd.!

please edit .

greets serhad — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.183.141.211 (talk) 23:29, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Statement of Wikisupporting

In your version where you only mention that according Van Bruinessen some of the Zaza who considered themselves as Kurds started to distinguish themselves from them, but you don´t mention that according to him still almost all Zazaki Speakers consider themselves as Kurds. And that he considers this as a "inner Kurdish" conflict. Wikisupporting (talk) 22:38, 22 August 2011 (UTC)