Talk:Zaydism/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Zabarah

I am not twelver or Zaidi. Yet, I respect Imam Zaid as the Imam before Jafar Sadiq. As for the edits, if you can find sources for your claims then post them if not, don't delete sourced materialAl-Zaidi (talk) 05:05, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

YOu bring twelevers sources to write an article about Zaidi sect. Ofcourse you will not get a true picture of the sect. give me zaidi sources for the claims you post on this article.--Zabarah (talk) 16:37, 9 November 2009 (UTC) I have removed the part with the different sects. there is no zaidi reference to show the truthfulness of this claim. please provide zaidi proof before posting such statements. It is also contradictory to zaidi beliefs of following the sons of Alhassan and Alhussain. --Zabarah (talk) 01:54, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Contradiction

In the first paragraph:

Zaiddiyah (also: Zaidi, Zaydi, Zaydiyah, or in the West Fivers) Zaidis are the descendants of Zayd ibn Ali and Zaydiyah is a sect of the followers of Zayd as imam.

At the bottom:

Not All Zaidis believe that Zaid is the true Imam but believe a fighter of ture. (fight against corrupt rulers)

The second needs copyediting no matter what, but I'm too ignorant to touch it. If the boundaries of the sect are really so fluid, it should be at the top, not at the bottom. --Mgreenbe 19:32, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

23:00, DECEMBER 12, 2005 This section of the page has been edited. By: S. A. Al-Zaidi

I reverted until sources are cited as per Wikipedia's verifiability policy. Thanks. El_C 11:12, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

S. Ali Al-Zaidi

Zaidi Wasitis should be in another Article. this article should discuss Zaidiyyah Sect. --Zabarah (talk) 01:07, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

How about this:

The Zaidi sect was started by the Sahaba of Zaid bin 'Ali (as) companions Abu'l Jarud Ziyad ibn Abi Ziyad, Sulayman ibn Jarir, Kathir an-Nawa Al-Abtar and Hasan ibn Salih.

The Zaidi sect then divided into three groups:

The earliest group called Jarudiyya (Abu'l Jarud Ziyad ibn Abi Ziyad), was opposed to the approval of the companions of the Prophet (saw). They held that there was sufficient description given by the Prophet (saw) so that all should recognised Imam 'Ali (as). They therefore consider the companions sinful in failing to recognise Imam 'Ali (as). They also denied legitamacy to Abu Bakr, 'Umar and 'Uthman, they also denounce Talha, Zubair, and Aisha. This sect was active during the late Umayyad and earky 'Abbasid period. Its views although predominated among the later Zaidis, became extinct due to similarities with the Ithna 'Ashari sect.

The second group, Sulaimaniyya (Sulayman ibn Jarir), held that the Imamate should be a matter to be decided by consultation. They felt that the companions, including Abu Bakr and 'Umar, had been in error in failing to follow Imam 'Ali (as) but did not amount to sin. Talha, Zubair, and Aisha became disbelievers.

The third group is Tabiriyya, Butriyya or Salihiyya (Kathir an-Nawa Al-Abtar and Hasan ibn Salih). They are identical with the Sulaimaniyya. The only difference is that this group do not revile 'Uthman.

Zaidi beliefs are moderate compared to other Shi'i sects. The Zaidis do not believe in the infallibility of the Imams, nor that they receive divine guidance. Zaidis also do not believe that the Imamate must pass from father to son, but believe it can be held by any descendant of Imam 'Ali (as). They also reject the Twelver notion of a hidden Imam, and like the Ismailis believe in a living imam, or even imams.

In matters of theology, they adhere to the Mu'tazalia (as the other Shi'i sects). In matters of law or fiqh, the Zaidis are actually closest to the Sunni Shafi'i school, with elements of the Sunni Hanafi and Shi'i schools.

(Momen, p.50, 51. and S.S. Akhtar Rizvi, "Shi'a Sects")

The first Zaidi state was established in Tabaristan (northern Iran) in 864 (AD); it lasted until the death of its leader at the hand of the Samanids in 928 (AD). Forty years later the state was revived in Gilan (north-western Iran) and survived under Hasanid leaders until the 12th century.

Zaidis form the dominant religious group in Yemen, and the leader of the Zaidi community took the title of Caliph. As such, the ruler of Yemen was known as the Caliph, al-Hadi Yahya bin al-Hussain bin al-Qasim (a scion of Imam al-Hasan (as), grandson of the Prophet) who, at Sa'da, in the last decade of the 9th century, founded the Zaidi Imamate and this system continued until the middle of the 20th century, due to the revolution of 1962.

Who was Zaid bin 'Ali (as)?

The Prophet prophesied his martyrdom, as narrated by Imam Hussain (as): "The Holy Prophet put his sacred hand on my back and said: 'O Hussain, it will not be long until a man will be born among your descendants. He will be called Zaid; he will be killed as a martyr. On the day of resurrection, he and his companions will enter heaven, setting their feet on the necks of the people.'" (Peshawar Nights by Sultanu'l-Wa'izin Shirazi)

Zaid bin 'Ali (as) was known as Imam Zaid bin 'Ali ash-Shahid (The Martyr). His official name is Zaid bin 'Ali bin Hussain bin 'Ali bin Abu Talib (as). He was the Son of the fourth Imam and half brother of the fifth Imam Muhammad al-Baqir (as).

Zaid (as) was the most outstanding and the most learned of the scholars of his time. Shaykh Mufid describes him as "a devout worshipper, pious, a jurist, God-fearing and brave." (al-Irshad, p. 403)

It is worth mentioning that he is also the first narrator of the famous as-Sahifah as-Sajjãdiyya of Imam Zainul 'Abidin (a.s.).

Historians of both Shi'is and Sunnis recorded that when Hisham bin Abdu'l-Malik became the caliph, he committed many atrocities. With regard to the Bani Hashim, he was particularly cruel. At last, Zaid bin 'Ali (as), well known as a great scholar and a pious theologian, went to see the caliph to seek redress for the grievances of the Bani Hashim. As soon as Zaid (as) arrived, the caliph, instead of greeting him as a direct descendant of the Holy Prophet, abused him with such abominable language that it can not be repeated. Because of this disgraceful treatment, Zaid (as) left Syria for Kufa, where he raised an army against the Bani Umayyad. The governor of Kufa, Yusuf bin 'Umar Thaqafi came out with a huge army to face him. Zaid (as) recited the following war poem: "Disgraceful life and honourable death: both are bitter morsels, but if one of them must be chosen, my choice is honourable death."

Although he fought bravely, Zaid (as) was killed in battle on the 2nd of Safar in 120 A.H. at the age of forty-two by Yusuf bin 'Amr ath-Thaqafi (the Umayyad governor). His son, Yahya, took his body from the field and buried him away from the city near the river bank, causing the water to flow over it. However, the grave was discovered and, under Yusuf's orders, the body was exhumed, Zaid (as)'s head was cut off and sent to Hisham in Syria. In the month of Safar, 121 A.H., Hisham had the sacred body of this descendant of the Prophet placed on the gallows entirely naked. For four years the sacred body remained on the gallows. Thereafter, when Walid Bin Yazid bin Abdu'l-Malik bin Marwan became caliph in 126 A.H., he ordered that the skeleton be taken down from the gallows, burnt, and the ashes scattered to the wind.

This accursed man committed a similar atrocity to the body of Yahya bin Zaid (as) of Gurgan. This noble man also opposed the oppression of the Bani Umayyad. He too was martyred on the battlefield. His head was sent to Syria and, as in the case of his revered father, his body was hung on the gallows - for six years. Friend and foe alike wept at the sight. Waliu'd-din Abu Muslim Khorasani, who had risen against the Bani Umayyad on behalf of Bani 'Abbas, took his body down and buried it in Gurgan, where it is a place of pilgrimage.

(al-Mufid, al-Irshad, p. 404; al-Mas'udi, Muruj adh-Dhahab; al-Qummi, Muntahal Amãl, p. 36).

Because of his jihad and his claim for the Ahlul Bayt, some Shi'as, however, thought that Zaid was claiming imamate for himself and therefore started believing in him as the Imam.

The Ithna-'Ashari sources do not believe that Zaid (as) claimed imamate for himself. For example, Shaykh Mufid, one of the earliest Shi'a theologians says, "However that was not his intention because he knew of the right of his brother, peace be on him, to the Imamate before him, and of his bequest of trusteeship (wasiyya) at his death to Abu 'Abd Allãh (i.e., Jafar as-Sadiq), peace be on him." (al-Irshad, p. 404).

Even the way Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (a.s.) reacted to Zaid (as)'s martyrdom shows the uprightness of the latter in his faith in the Imams of Ahlul Bayt. When Imam as-Sadiq was informed about Zaid (as)'s martyrdom, "he was very sad...and he set apart a thousand dinars of his own money for the families of those of (Zaid (as)'s) followers who were killed with him." (al-Irshad, p. 405) For other such narrations by Shaykh as-Saduq, see Muntahal Amãl, p. 36.

In conclusion, we can say that Zaid bin 'Ali (as) was an outstanding Shi'a, a mujãhid and a shahid who was loyal to the line of the Imams of Ahlul Bayt, including his own brother, Imam Muhammad al-Baqir (as), and, his nephew, Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (a.s.). This leaves us with no choice but to reject the statement made by the late 'Allamah Tabãtabã'i that Zaid (as) himself "considered the first two caliphs, Abu Bakr and Umar, as their Imams." (Shi'a Islam, p. 77)

In Karak, Jordan is the shrine of Zaid bin 'Ali bin Al-Hussain (as). He was the great, great, grandson of Prophet Mohammad and a religious leader known for his righteous, majestic and knowledgeable ways. When describing Zaid (as), Imam Jafar Al-Sadiq (as) said: "Among us he was the best read in the Holy Qur'an, and the most knowledgeable about religion, and the most caring towards family and relatives."

The difference between the last names

"Al-Zaidi" and "Zaidi"

"Al-Zaidis" are Sayyid descents directly from Zaid bin 'Ali bin Hussain bin 'Ali bin Abu Talib (as). Imam Ali Zainul Abudeen (as) had 11 sons and 4 daughters, from his son Zaid (as) became the family Al-Zaidi (derived from Zaid, Zaidi meaning "of Zaid" the "Al-" meaning "the" is for pointing out the word Zaidi as a family name.) The other 10 sons held the family name of Al-Abidi derived from Abid, Abidi meaning "of Abid" the "Al-" meaning "the" is for pointing out the word Abid as a family name. Abbud was Imam Ali Zainul Abudeen's title because of his extremely pious nature). It is very common for Al-Zaidis just as other Arabs, in western countries to drop the "Al-" in front of the last name. However most retain the "Al-" on their Arab documents. Al-Zaidis are mainly Ithna 'Asharis (Jafari Fiqh, Immamiyya, Twelvers Shi'is), however there are some Zaidi Al-Zaidis in Yemen. Al-Zaidis are found in Northern Yemen, Kufa and Najaf, Iraq and Al-Hijaz (western Saudi Arabia). In Yemen there are several classes:

- "Sayyid" (plu. Saddah): Descendents of the Prophet through his only daughter Fatima and her Husband Imam 'Ali bin Abu Talib (as),

- "Ulema": Religious representatives.

- "Qabili": Sheikhs, Landowners and farmers.

- Merchents.

- Artisans.

- "Anadil": Public Servants, barbers, bouchers, nurses, etc...

- "Akhadan": People of Africain origin.

People with the last name "Zaidi" whom are not Arab are known as Wasitis. They believe in the Twelve Imams and are part of the Shi'i Ithna 'Ashari sect. Most of them settled in India and Pakistan. The biggest group of Zaidis believing in Twelve Shi'i Imams is known as Saadat-e-Bara. Saadat means descendents of the Prophet Muhammad (saw) and Bara means twelve in Hindi and Urdu languages. Saadat-e-Bara's biggest gathering is in Karachi, Pakistan and Muzaffarnagar, India.

NOTE* There are two types of Sayyids, al-Hassani Sayyids (descendents of Imam al-Hassan (as)) and al-Hussaini Sayyids (descendents of Imam Hussain (as)). In the Arab world al-Hassani Sayyids are known as Sherif in some instances and writings. Interestingly there are more al-Hassani Sayyids than al-Hussaini Sayyids. this is because Zaid bin Imam Hassan (as) was very bountiful in his offsrping; his descedents spread throughout the Middle East and North Africa. Today the Ruler of Morocco is a Hassani Sayyid, he is a descendent of the Idrisids (descendents of Idris). Up until 1962 the ruler of Yemen was also an al-Hassani Sayyid.

Unsourced

I rm The Zaidi believe that Mohammed, the prophet will come back to earth as the Mahdi, and many believe he is already here. This may be true but I see no support for it. John Reid 03:26, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Copyvio

I rm this block of text:

By: Sayyid 'Ali ibn 'Ali Al-Zaidi

The Zaidi sect was started by the Sahaba of Zaid bin 'Ali (as) companions Abu'l Jarud Ziyad ibn Abi Ziyad, Sulayman ibn Jarir, Kathir an-Nawa Al-Abtar and Hasan ibn Salih.

The Zaidi sect then divided into three groups:

The earliest group called Jarudiyya (Abu'l Jarud Ziyad ibn Abi Ziyad), was opposed to the approval of the companions of Muhammad. They held that there was sufficient description given by the Prophet (saw) so that all should recognised Imam 'Ali. They therefore consider the companions sinful in failing to recognise Imam 'Ali. They also denied legitamacy to Abu Bakr, 'Umar and 'Uthman, they also denounce Talha, Zubair, and Aisha. This sect was active during the late Umayyad and earky 'Abbasid period. Its views although predominated among the later Zaidis, became extinct due to similarities with the Ithna 'Ashari sect.

The second group, Sulaimaniyya (Sulayman ibn Jarir), held that the Imamate should be a matter to be decided by consultation. They felt that the companions, including Abu Bakr and 'Umar, had been in error in failing to follow Imam 'Ali but did not amount to sin. Talha, Zubair, and Aisha became disbelievers.

The third group is Tabiriyya, Butriyya or Salihiyya (Kathir an-Nawa Al-Abtar and Hasan ibn Salih). They are identical with the Sulaimaniyya. The only difference is that this group do not revile 'Uthman.

Zaidi beliefs are moderate compared to other Shi'i sects. The Zaidis do not believe in the infallibility of the Imams, nor that they receive divine guidance. Zaidis also do not believe that the Imamate must pass from father to son, but believe it can be held by any descendant of Imam 'Ali. They also reject the Twelver notion of a hidden Imam, and like the Ismailis believe in a living imam, or even imams.

In matters of theology, they adhere to the Mu'tazalia (as the other Shi'i sects). In matters of law or fiqh, the Zaidis are actually closest to the Sunni Shafi'i school, with elements of the Sunni Hanafi and Shi'i schools.

(Momen, p.50, 51. and S.S. Akhtar Rizvi, "Shi'a Sects")

The first Zaidi state was established in Tabaristan (northern Iran) in 864 (AD); it lasted until the death of its leader at the hand of the Samanids in 928 (AD). Forty years later the state was revived in Gilan (north-western Iran) and survived under Hasanid leaders until the 12th century.

Zaidis form the dominant religious group in Yemen, and the leader of the Zaidi community took the title of Caliph. As such, the ruler of Yemen was known as the Caliph, al-Hadi Yahya bin al-Hussain bin al-Qasim (a scion of Imam al-Hasan (as), grandson of the Prophet) who, at Sa'da, in the last decade of the 9th century, founded the Zaidi Imamate and this system continued until the middle of the 20th century, due to the revolution of 1962.

(The Encyclopaedia of Islam, second edition) (Religious Trends in Early Islamic Iran, Wilferd Madelung, Albany 1988)

This appears to be a straight lift from the cited sources. You're welcome to show this appearance is mistaken. If the text is not copied from these sources then the text may be reinserted; however the sources should be moved to another section of their own (References). John Reid 03:32, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Zaidi

Well i am Waqas Zaidi. I am also from the family lineage of Zaid bin Ali. Me and my whole family (clan) dont believe that Zaid was true Imam. We believe that his brother Imam Baqir was truer then him. Also we believe in infallibles. (the 14 infallibles).. We are part of Shia Itna Ashri (the twelver) and we did not convert our selve to it. we were twelver since Hazrat Zaid. because according to us Zaid never claimed himself as Imam, only some people accepted him. hope this clear of confusions..

Given what you said, I can say that neither you nor your family are Zaidis, rather, you are Jarowdis. Al-Jarowdiyah are those who have the same beliefs as the Shite of Iran.

Zaidi 21:00, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Moslem

I am sorry to sound out of the subject. But when I clicked on Zaidi to learn about them, I got to a page that seemed like it was written by the defence minister of Yemen. This place is to share info not to carry propaganda warfare.

Revert

This page is in desperate need of a revert. Not sure how to do it myself, and I'm a little pressed for time at this moment, but it would be great if someone could do the honours. Blythe49 12:31, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Moved from article

PLEASE NOTE: There is a very big difference between the Zaidis and Zaidiyas. The whole school of thought is different and the fundamental principles are quite the opposite. This article needs to be re-written, specifying Zaidiyas and the Zaidis and using correct names in its places as it is very misleading. Please refer elsewhere for details as well. --SalimZaidi (talk) 11:12, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

You are probably Indian or Pakistani, that would explain why you say Zaidiya. followers of the Zaidi Fiqh call themselves "Zaidi" this is from the Arabic of being from Zaid thus rendering Zaidi, which is the same derivative of the indo-pak family known as the Zaidis whom are Sayyid descendants of Zaid. To indo-pakis this poses a linguistic problem, for Arabs it doesn't when we say Zaidi we mean followers of the Fiqh when we are referring to the descendants we say either Sayyid Zaidi or Az-Zaidi. In Arabic and English it is very clear and the page does not have to be moved. for indo-pakis who speak Urdu, its difficult to understand.Al-Zaidi (talk) 02:55, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Sunni Zaidis

not all zaidis are Shiite ...i am a Sunni Zaidi ...pleas provide the percentage of zaidi people according to the sect or some comparison of Sunni and Shiite zaidis

This is false. Your words do not echo sourced material and Zaidism follows the Shia mode of thinking up until The 4th Shia Imam.

Zaidi’s are a branch of Shiism. JasonMoore (talk) 01:03, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Sunni-Shia sectarianism is a recent ‘import’ to Yemeni society and many Zaidis there did not think of themselves as strictly Shia. It might also be worth noting that the Zaidi school of Shiism has a lot of overlap with Sunni Islam. So much so that the virulently anti-Shia ISIS/Daesh terrorist group considers Zaidis as Sunni heretics, who they give the option of converting, whereas they sentence Twelvers and members of other Shia sects immediately to death.

This is sourced from books I own and if I have time I will try adding these points to the article. User2346 (talk) 22:55, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

Haider has excellent publications on the subject. I have added a couple of his works to the list of references in the article. His take: (1) Zaydism changes in time, occasionally coming pretty close to Sunni views and (2) generally still considered in the Shia territory at all times. Викидим (talk) 07:54, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Removed claim about 99 names of God

The article said the following:

The Zaidi has a unique theological perspective on deities in which the 99 names of Allah as followed by other Muslims correspond to 99 separate deities in the Zaidi Sect.

Not only is no source given for this, it seems very unlikely -- I think it is most likely false propaganda spread by other Islamic sects. If Zaidis actually believed this, it would be a form of polytheism, so not something one would expect an Islamic sect to believe (or if they did, it would be widely condemned as ghulat). I can't find anything about this, so I am assuming it is just made up. --SJK (talk) 10:05, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Your assumption is correct.Al-Zaidi (talk) 11:59, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Why a summary section?

After the section on the imams, there is another section titled "Summary." But per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section, isn't the lead supposed to be a summary?
Is there a way we can break that section apart and scavenge the sources for other sections in the article? Or can we just move it into the lead? MezzoMezzo (talk) 06:00, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Seconded. Is there someone with knowledge here to do a proper summary section? 2601:C:AB80:3D1:BE5F:F4FF:FE35:1B41 (talk) 03:57, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Book or no book??

There are 2 conflicting statements in the article:

"Imam Zayd ibn Ali did not themselves write any books"
"Zaydis follow Zayd ibn ’Ali's teachings which are documented in his book Majmu’ al-Fiqh"

Did he or did he not?? Kipala (talk) 11:24, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Abū Khālid ‘Umar b. Khālid Wāsiṭī, who was a companion of Zayd b. Ali and died in second half of the second century — wrote the book Majmu’ Al-Fiqh. Not Zaid ibn Ali. JasonMoore (talk) 01:06, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Percentage of Zaidi-Shi'a in Yemen

The US State Department report given does not specifically state the percentage of Zaidi-Shi'a in Yemen. In fact, it states clearly that there are no official statistics on how many Shi'a (of any kind) are in Yemen. It only states that "35 percent of the population is estimated to be Shia" without defining specific sects of Shi'a. I've marked it as not in citation, and will completely remove, rewrite if someone doesn't have a better citation soon. If I've done this by the time you read this, please rewrite with appropriate citation. 2601:C:AB80:3D1:BE5F:F4FF:FE35:1B41 (talk) 03:54, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Zaidi Imāms

I've tagged the only two citations for this section as verification needed as per WP:Verifiability. Both salvartionark.com and shiachat.com are clearly non-verifiable sources that don't adhere to guidelines (they are both self-published and non-secondary sources). I will come back in a bit and completely delete that section (as those are the only citations given) if no one has any sources that adhere to WP standards. 2601:C:AB80:3D1:BE5F:F4FF:FE35:1B41 (talk) 04:44, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

A cite is badly needed. The list is clearly incomplete and pretty useless without territory/years. I have added a {{cn}}. Imams of Yemen are well-documented (see sources in Imams of Yemen). For the Qasimi period, see Haider (2021) on p.214, these names are not on the list in our article. A full list of 67 imams of Yemen until 1962 can be found in [1] on pp. 104-107, it does not seem to correlate much with the list in this article (is does with Imams of Yemen). Unfortunately, pp. 104-107 are not freely available. Викидим (talk) 08:11, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Empires, ruling families, or dynasties?

The section § Empires has several subsections, each named for and briefly describing a "dynasty". The usual connotation of the term "dynasty" is of a ruling family, successive rulers being blood relations. However, in some contexts, a religious dynasty refers to a sequence of leaders chosen for their spiritual or religious merit, rather than by common descent. So it seems clear that, in either connotation, this section could be labelled Dynasties. Surely that would be preferable to the label Empires, which usually refers to reign over extensive areas and lands and many distinct peoples (and often, many distinct cultures)? None of the "dynasties" mentioned here seem to have ever held sway over large territories. If, in fact, the "dynasties" mentioned in this section were blood relations, the title Ruling families would be even less ambiguous and therefore preferable. But in any case, the present title Empires is misleading. yoyo (talk) 09:09, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

Agree, this section needs a coherent source, not just links to other articles. Викидим (talk) 08:13, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Meaning of Fivers

Maybe the meaning of Fivers should be explained - where the term comes from. Recognition of the same four caliphs as Shias but the fifth is different if I'm not mistaken? Kats98712411:04, 29 September 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kats987124 (talk • contribs)

Done per source already provided (Britannica). --Викидим (talk) 08:38, 12 January 2024 (UTC)