Talk:Zang (bell)

Proposed merge of Zill with Zang (bell)

These three articles, Zill, Zang (bell), and Sanj purport to be about different subjects within the continuum of Central Asian and Caucasian bell instruments. While sources could likely be found to establish separate articles with scopes specific to individual varieties of the instrument, the current division between the articles is essentially arbitrary: both Zill and Zang (bell) purport to give full histories of bells, whereas Sanj claims to describe a specific subtype but is only supported by sources giving the definition of "زنگ" as a bell instrument. Based on the currently-cited sources, it would appear to be most appropriate to create one, central article about the use of bells in these cultures, under whichever title is actually the English WP:COMMONNAME (perhaps the English Finger cymbals), with subtype-specific articles spun off to the extent that can be established with cited sources. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 23:05, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

From what I know, sanj (سنج) is simply a generic Arabic word for cymbal that is only used to refer to finger cymbals within suitable context. That page should be deleted and replaced with a redirect to Cymbal. However, I do not know enough about the differences between zangs and zills to make an informed comment on that, and finding sources that delineate such differences is hard. I think an overview article on these types of cymbals should be made, even if nothing gets merged. Finger cymbals (which redirects to Zills) refer to a large family of instruments, and the term should not redirect to one specific type that the West picked up on. That would be like the Cymbal article redirecting to Ride cymbal. Why? I Ask (talk) 00:50, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that putting all into the western article finger cymbals is not good. I do think some may be merged and that would be useful. That is one reason I am working on simplifying and organizing the Persian musical instruments article, because it felt (and still feels) like too much. The question is which articles should be merged? And do we include castanets? Information has been hard, but I keep finding hints that Sanj includes larger cymbals (but can also mean finger cymbals) and has Arabic cultural overtones. Zang is more Persian and seems to mainly mean finger cymbals. Zills is Turkish for the finger cymbals. I have no objections to whatever the consensus is. There will be more articles that need examining this way, as I try to fill out the percussion section in Persian musical instruments. Jacqke (talk) 01:34, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Castanets and finger cymbals are both "clappers" (not to be confused with Clapper (musical instrument)), but castanets aren't finger cymbals, if that makes sense. Why? I Ask (talk) 02:18, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It does make sense. And yet I read somewhere the castanets were originally seashells; they remind me of the cup-shaped version of zills, which is probably why I went there. I have been re-reading the zang article. I believe that too much focus is being placed on the one thing that was well illustrated, the dancing girl with zills or Zang-e sarangoshti. However, it looks like bells really is one of the larger meanings. It's just that everyone (in Perisan as well as English) has focused on the dancing girls; that is where the art and the examples that were easy to find. I have added two others, which seem to show that zang encompasses real bells, as well as jingles.Jacqke (talk) 02:37, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, have done much reading since I last commented. I think that Sanj should be merged into Zang (bell); the reason is that Sanj and Zang are the same word, but have been transcribed differently over the years and then have been treated as separate instruments. I don't support moving Zang (bell) into Zill because Zang is a generalized word that incorporates bells, cymbals, clash cymbals, jingles on tambourines, finger cymbals and Zills. Zill is a word for a specific kind of instrument, the small cymbals and chime cymbals worn on fingers (and sometimes the jingles used in tambourines). It is true that Sanj as bell and cymbal is associated with dancers (per George Farmer, History of Arabian music). However, Sanj and Zang also have also been associated with harsh sounds used in war--large cymbals, which is not a function of zills. It is now true in modern usage that nearly all finger cymbals are zills, and articles such as Zang should link to zills, rather than spend much space to describe zills within the article. Jacqke (talk) 16:38, 2 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That seems reasonable--content at Zill can also be rewritten a bit to cut down on its discussion of historic precedents such as krotala, which seem to be more in the scope of Zang. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 17:26, 2 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I will work on merging Sanj into Zang (bell), probably this week, unless someone objects,. Thanks, Jacqke (talk) 18:36, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Merged Sanj into Cymbal#Central Asia and Iran. The more I worked with the material, the more separation I got; connections between zang and sanj appear to be mainly linguistic. Jacqke (talk) 15:23, 9 December 2022 (UTC) I'm going to work on developing zang further. Jacqke (talk) 15:23, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am finished for now with Zang (bell) unless I come across a different perspective or more sources. I don't see zill (the far better known musical instrument) merging into zang (bell) which is obscure in the English speaking world. I don't see how zang could merge into zill either, one being specialized, the other generalized. I suggest we remove the merge tags from both articles. Jacqke (talk) 12:45, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with your assessment and have removed the tags accordingly. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 17:44, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]