Talk:Zaida of Seville

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Her parents

The article says nothing about her parentage, only that she was a daughter-in-law of Al Mutamid, the Muslim ruler of Seville.--jeanne (talk) 07:35, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is because the sources that give her parentage are erroneous, forged, incomprehensible or outright guesswork. The one source that is considered reliable only calls her daughter-in-law of Muhammad. As much as we might want to know her parentage, we don't. Agricolae (talk) 04:38, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We don't know, nobody can ever know who their own grandmother might have slept with, but we can quote differing sources, as per Wikipedia:CITE.86.42.236.63 (talk) 13:59, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, WP:CITE does not address what information is appropriate for inclusion, just that when it is included, an indication of its source may be appropriate. In this case, the more appropriate standard is WP:Verifiability, where it says "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." (emphasis added) Elsewhere, Stuart, makes someone his own grandfather, and again, he mistakenly converts someone's parents-in-law into grandparents. Stuart's work has received scholarly reviews in major genealogical publications and they all dismissed it as inaccurate and poorly done. This is not a source that we should use to build a verifiable article.

Just to illustrate, Stuart is far afield with the supposed descent mentioned in the new edit. Zaida was not the 4-great grandmother of Eleanor of Castile. Stuart, on some whim, combines Zaida with a completely separate woman, another of Alfonso's mistresses, Jimena Munoz, and the descent he gives is actually for one of Jimena's duaghters. The only known child of Zaida is her son Sancho. It has been reasonably argued (although not universally accepted) that she had daughters Sancha and Elvira, but then their descent is equally problematic due to further inventions and errors (and yes, we know they are inventions and errors). If there are descendants of Zaida, they are among one line of Spanish minor nobility, lost in historical obscurity, or among the descendants of the Kings of Sicily, with no link to the English royalty before the 15th century, if even then (and while we are at it, why is linkage tot he English royalty the one we are going to mention, and not linkage to French, Danish or Polish). An article on the woman is not the place to talk about these distant descents - I just mention it here to demonstrate that Stuart is not a source that merits citation because its information is not based on reliable scholarship and its poor reputation is deserved.

As to "nobody can ever know" that is hardly an argument that favors the inclusion of genealogy in any article. It is not like the origins of these claims are obscure. The sources have been discussed by numerous scholars who have specifically addressed the issue, and no one has found a new source in about 75 years. These have been cited, as per WP:CITE. That unreliable sources have combined inventions and misconceptions and forgeries to provide a flawed ancestry is not something that a biographical article on a late-10th century woman needs to get into. Agricolae (talk) 16:48, 30 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Death dates

The death dates given by Cawley are those for Queen Isabella, found on the memorial stone that calls her daughter of King Luis of France. They can only be those of Zaida if 1) Zaida is identical to Queen Isabella, and 2) the memorial stone is dead wrong about her parentage, but spot-on regarding her death date. Neither of these represents scholarly consensus. An alternative viewpoint placed her death in about 1093. Agricolae (talk) 04:38, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Queen of Castile?

If she was perhaps married to Alfonso the Brave, she would probably take the titles of Queen of Castile, Leon, Galicia, Portugal and Empress of Spain. The only scenario's she would not have the title is if she never married Alfonso, and stayed his mistress, or if the marriage was merely morganatic, or if Alfonso never gave Zaida the title of Queen Consort, due to the fact she was previously a Muslim, and according to most churches in the middle ages when it goes to marriage, "Once a Muslim, always a Muslim"Signed, (talk) 15:11, 25 June 2021 (UTC)Alixpixle8[reply]

This is all predicated on anachronistic practice. There was no such thing as morganatic marriage at this time and place, nor of the woman the king married 'taking titles' or being awarded a formal title of Queen Consort by the monarch. With the exception of Alfonso's daughter who was queen regnant in her own right, the queen was simply the woman married to the king. It is a simple question that the historical record does not allow to be unambiguously answered. Is the documented mistress of Alfonso, Zaida (baptized as Isabel), the same woman who shows up in later documents as Alfonso's wife Isabel. If they were the same, then Zaida was that queen. If they were different then Zaida was not queen. Agricolae (talk) 01:17, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I think king's at the time could reward or strip there wives of titles, in the 1500's (which is close to the late middle ages) Henry VIII of England removed his second wife Anne Boleyn of her title before he ordered her execution, maybe during the time of Queen Zaida (or Isabel as she was claimed to be) you could not strip or not give titles if you were a member of nobility or royalty at the time, but I am sure maybe the pope refused to crown Zaida as she was previously not a Roman Catholic.Signed, (talk) 12:43, 28 June 2021 (UTC)Signed, (talk) 15:11, 25 June 2021 (UTC)Alixpixle8[reply]

It is unwise to compare queenship under Henry VIII with that under Alfonso VI more than 400 years earlier under entirely different circumstances, but this is all predicated on the wrong question. The uncertainty is not over whether the woman married to Alfonso received a formal title from either the monarch or the pope. We don't know whether Zaida was queen for the simple reason that we don't know if Alfonso ever married her, whether the Isabel who married Alfonso in 1100 was the same woman as the royal mistress Isabel, formerly named Zaida, by whom he had a child almost a decade earlier. The question of the awarding of a formal title is moot if they never married. Agricolae (talk) 20:26, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]