Talk:Zack Greinke/GA2

GA Review

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: Shudde (talk · contribs) 11:21, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Hey. I'll be conducting the review. I haven't read the article yet, but to give an idea of how I normally do this. I'll read it through and comment as I go, except the lead, which I'll read last. I'll just leave any comments that I think will be valuable regardless of whether they relate explicitly to the Good article criteria. I'll then state whether I think the article should pass, fail, or be placed on hold. I see these reviews as collaborative, so if you have any questions/queries please ask. -- Shudde ^talk 11:21, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Main text

• "Greinke was born in Orlando, Florida, the son of teachers Donald and Marsha Greinke." -- good to mention full name a the beginning here (like I said I read the lead last).
• "his amateur all-star team" -- as a non-American I find this confusing, what is an 'amateur all-star team' and how would Greinke come to be part of one?
• "When Greinke started playing baseball at Apopka High School" -- I'm trying to do this working in my head, but when he played in the Senior League World Series was he not in High School?

Senior League baseball is an extension of little league for older boys.. its not related to his high school team... from the timeframe it probably overlapped his freshman year of HS but i can find no information on if he played HS as a freshman... so he probably did this before he started playing HS ball... thats my assumption anyway. Spanneraol (talk) 12:37, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

• "relief pitcher" -- maybe link this if possible
• Could "starting rotation" --> "staring pitcher" -- this may make it a little more accessible to non-experts.
• "9–2 record" could be "9–2 win-loss record" -- makes it clearer and could maybe (up to you) remove the wiki-link
• "32-2 record" ndash?
• "Greinke pitched in six games in the minor leagues for the Royals in 2002, with three games for the Gulf Coast Royals, two for the Low-A Spokane Indians, and two innings for the High-A Wilmington Blue Rocks." -- this statement may be slightly unclear. It means that he played six games for the Royals, then they "loaned" him (farmed I think Americans call it Farm team?) to three other teams? If this is wrong then you should rewrite the sentence, if it's right, you may want to consider a clarification.

Not sure what you want here... All these teams are part of the Royals minor league system...he pitched six games that year, 3 for the GC, 2 for Spokane and 2 for Wilmington. The minor league link explains how the farm system works do i really need to go into that here? I tweaked it a little bit, see if that works better. Spanneraol (talk) 12:37, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

I would never have thought to click on that link to find that out! It doesn't require a big explanation, I see you've added something which is a good start, at the moment it reads "Greinke pitched in six games in the minor leagues for the Royals organization in 2002: three games for the Gulf Coast Royals, two for the Low-A Spokane Indians, and two innings for the High-A Wilmington Blue Rocks of the Carolina League." -- maybe "Greinke pitched in six minor league games for Royals' farm teams in 2002: three games for the Gulf Coast Royals, two for the Low-A Spokane Indians, and two innings for the High-A Wilmington Blue Rocks of the Carolina League." ? -- Shudde ^talk 02:46, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Done. Spanneraol (talk) 14:50, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

• "Those numbers earned him spot on the Carolina League mid-season[13] and post-season all-star teams as well as Carolina League Pitcher of the Year" -- you might want to make clear before this sentence what league Wilmington play in.
• You might want to link manager as some people will think this is a player agent (depending on where they're from). Actually maybe just reword "The Blue Rocks' manager, Billy Gardner, Jr., ..."
• "He had his first share of adversity with Wichita, as he had a couple of games where he was hit hard." -- this whole statement is unclear, consider rewording
  • This still doesn't read very encyclopaedic -- "rough times" for example.

Reworded slightly. Spanneraol (talk) 15:28, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

• "Greinke was named the Royals Minor League Pitcher of the Year for 2003[17] and began 2004 with the Omaha Royals of the Pacific Coast League, where he was 1-1 with a 2.51 ERA in six starts.[18]" -- is it possible to say how he ends up getting moved from one team to another? Who decides this?
• "bottom of the ninth" -- I've heard this term many times, but don't know exactly what it means, is there an appropriate wiki-link?
• "with legendary Royals third baseman" -- is legendary very encyclopaedic?
• "he almost quit baseball. He has stated that he was "surprised [he] came back" to baseball.[23] He left" -- you may want to reduce some of the close repetition of the word "he" here
  • Still a bit of an issue

How bout now? Spanneraol (talk) 15:28, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

• "sent to the bullpen" -- link "bullpen"
• "Greinke's 2008 saw him return to the rotation and put up a good year." -- not sure about the English here (some people hate the use of "saw" like this). And "put up a good year" sounds like an odd phrase. Maybe "Greinke returned to the rotation in the 2008 and performed well that season."
• "Greinke started off 2009 by not allowing a run in his first 24 innings. His 2008 season ended with 14 scoreless innings, which meant that for 38 innings in a row, he had not given up a run.[29] Greinke was named American League Pitcher of the Month for April, his 5 wins, 0.50 ERA and 44 strikeouts all tops in the Majors.[30] On August 25, Greinke struck out 15 batters, breaking Mark Gubicza's record for strikeouts in a single game for the Royals.[31] On August 30, Greinke had a one-hit complete game against the Seattle Mariners.[32]" -- this section is confusing because you may have mixed up the ordering. I'm not sure when you're talking about 2009 and when about 2008 -- please try to reorganise to remove any ambiguity.
• You start using the abbreviation AL without introducing it (I know what it means, but shouldn't have to guess or figure it out)
• "sabermetrician" -- what is this?
• "asked the Royals to trade him, citing he was not motivated to play" -- I don't know if "citing" is the right word here, maybe "saying" or "claiming"
• Milwaukee Brewers (2011–2012): with regards to him being traded, is there not more that could be said regarding the Royals reaction to this request? Were they happy about it? Upset? Surely they had some view either way.
• "Greinke finished second on the team in wins despite missing the first month of the season." -- this isn't clear to me
• NL has not been introduced.
• "He went a perfect 11–0 in his starts at Miller Park" -- may want to say this is their home stadium
• "On April 7, 2012, in his first start of the season, Greinke pitched 7 scoreless innings while giving up 4 hits and striking out 7. The Brewers went on to beat the Cardinals 6–0." this could be linked better, you haven't explicitly linked the second sentence to the first event. Maybe "On April 7, 2012, the Brewers defeated the Cardinals 6–0 in Greinke's first start of the season after he pitched 7 scoreless innings while giving up 4 hits and striking out 7."
• "In an oddity, Greinke became the first pitcher to start three straight games for his team in 95 years." this is a little unclear, we're not talking about all of baseball, or all the the MLB, we're talking about the Brewers right? So maybe "In an oddity, Greinke became the first pitcher to start three straight games for the Brewers in 95 years."
• "He would then combine with four other Angels pitchers to tie an American League record by striking out 20 batters in a nine-inning game." -- "He would then .." is not great prose. Maybe "He then combined with four other Angels pitchers to tie an American League record by striking out 20 batters in a nine-inning game."
• Why did the Brewers trade him? Not information given on this -- it's especially jarring as it comes after a statement saying he never lost at Miller Park -- so why the trade?
• How did he end up at the Los Angeles Dodgers? Was he traded or was his contract up?
• Don't think we need to link collarbone (or basketball)
• "he returned to game action on May 10" -- "to game action" seems redundant here
• "Greinke began the 2014 season by winning his first five decisions and setting a modern record" -- what is a "decision" and what is a "modern" record as opposed to a record (and is this a MLB record, team record etc?)
  • The link doesn't clarify what "decision" is for me.

The link does talk about what a decision is, the second paragraph specifically. Basically the times he is credited with a win. But there were games in there where he did not get a decision, someone else got the win, it's a fairly common baseball term, not sure how else to say it. Spanneraol (talk) 12:37, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it's reasonable to expect a reader to have to dig through the article to find that. Some sports have a glossary (for example Glossary of cricket terms) to try and help with this. Is there a baseball one? If not consider rewording or somehow clarifying. Like I said doesn't need to be a detailed explanation, but we don't want to make it so hard for non-experts to understand what is being said. -- Shudde ^talk 02:46, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Removed. Spanneraol (talk) 14:50, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

• "early in the count" -- what does this mean?
• "has produced impressive results" -- this is subjective surely -- a cite or quote would be better
• In general, the Pitching style is very very dense with jargon. It's unavoidable to have jargon in an article such as this, but this section in particular could use a little bit of a cull. I think it's worth trying to reduce it in here.

I took a stab at this, getting rid of some of the more wonky terms, updating his standings on the leader board and adding a bit more on his style. Let me know if you think it works or want more fixed. Spanneraol (talk) 16:31, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

• "10th" or "tenth"

Fixed. Missed this last time. Spanneraol (talk) 15:28, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

• "Miss Daytona Beach USA 2008" is this notable? Seems a little strange to introduce a person that way, especially as they met in High School - well before 2008. How about "Greinke is married to Emily Kuchar -- who he met while attending at Apopka High School. Kuchar is a former Dallas Cowboys cheerleader and was Miss Daytona Beach USA 2008."
• "but was out of baseball a year later after injuries derailed his career." -- this needs rewording. Makes it read as if he was out of baseball a year after injuring himself, or a year after being drafted; probably isn't both, so please clarify.

Lead

• "Greinke has battled social anxiety disorder throughout his career, almost quitting baseball at one point." -- again this doesn't clearly link the two. Maybe "Greinke has battled social anxiety disorder throughout his career, which at one point almost caused him to retire from baseball."
• Not sure the lead quite summarises the article, probably needs more information on his career from 2004 to 2009
  • This is probably not quite detailed enough yet.
• "after being named the Gatorade National Player of the Year his senior year of high school." -- "in his senior ..." ?
• "His 2013 free agent contract" -- this explains my previous question! Still needs to be addressed though.

Comments so far

I will spot check references, images, and close-paraphrasing soon. As for what I've looked at so far, the article is definitely close (just a warning though, if there are close-paraphrasing problems I'll fail the article, they're generally a lot of work to confidently address) and most of my comments have been very minor/picky. Hopefully my comments have been valuable so far -- especially coming from someone who is obviously not very familiar with baseball! Often these type of sports articles can be quite full of jargon and statistics, but this one isn't too bad. I think adding something on why he got traded and signed when he did will add significantly to the article though. Other than that, I'll address those last few things tomorrow or in the next few days. Once I've done that I generally give a week or so for comments to be addressed. If this won't be long enough, or if you have any questions, feel free to message me on my talk page. -- Shudde ^talk 11:21, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Hello.. I believe I have addressed/fixed the issues you mentioned above. However, i'm unsure as to what to do with the "pitching style" section. Are you saying to include less detail? I didn't actually write that particular section cause that sort of detailed stat stuff isnt my forte.. What would you suggest to make it work better? Should I just reduce/simplify it? Spanneraol (talk) 17:42, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

I'll answer that question in a minute, but I've got some more comments from things I've picked up while going through the above comments:

• "Those numbers earned him spot on the Carolina League mid-season[13] and post-season all-star teams as well as Carolina League Pitcher of the Year." -- English
• "where he was 1-1 with a 2.51" -- ndash
• "With the Royals unlikely to be capable of signing Greinke to a long-term deal when he would hit free agency they agreed to trade him for some quality prospects." -- this reads a little funny, and could probably be a little clearer. Maybe "The Royals were unlikely to afford signing Greinke to a long-term deal once he became a free agent, so they agreed to trade him for some quality prospects." ?
• "Greinke would later admit that he handled the situation poorly" -- can this be clarified, what is meant by "situation" exactly?
  • I think this could be expanded on -- in what way did he handle the trade request poorly? -- Shudde ^talk 02:46, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Added. Spanneraol (talk) 14:50, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Regarding the question. I'm not saying reduce the detail, I'm saying make that detail a little easier to understand to non-experts. It's hard for me to offer clear examples because I'm not familiar with the jargon. If anything the section could be expanded. -- Shudde ^talk 10:45, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Fixed new issues... and addressed the style section. Spanneraol (talk) 12:37, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Images

• File:Zack Greinke on September 17, 2013.jpg -- Licence on flickr page says no-derivs, but this may have been changed since the photo was uploaded to commons. description page says the licence was checked by an admin, so will AGF that the licence matched at the time of the upload.
• File:Zack Greinke on July 29, 2009.jpg -- Checks out. Licence and source match flickr image.
• File:Zackgreinkebrewers.TIF -- Checks out.

Source review

• Some article titles use all caps, would be good to fix this
• Inconsistent format in [44] and [45]
• looks like an error in the title of [48]
• [57] is a dead link
• publisher of [72] looks a bit funny
• [75] -- NY Post or New York Post?
• There is some inconsistency in the reference style. This isn't a GA criteria but would be good to fix it. For example there is mlb.com or MLB.com -- sometimes the website is listed under the parameter publisher, sometimes work. Some of the publishers (or work) have wiki-links, some do not etc. Would be good to standardise all this.
• What makes baseball-intellect.com, fangraphs.com and closecallsports.com reliable sources?

Done with source review. I'll do spotchecks in the next couple of days. -- Shudde ^talk 11:02, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Fixed reference styles to be more consistent, replaced dead link and closecallsports links with new refs. Fangraphs is a fairly well respected website that specializes on statistical analysis, i'd definitely consider it a reliable source. Baseball-intellect is a bit questionable, so i removed the bit that cites that. Spanneraol (talk) 15:28, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Spotchecks and further comments

• Is [1] self-published? Not clear, but looks like it is rather than a RS?

This is part of the SB Nation site, which does have an editorial board and features content written by web journalists that cover the teams in detail. I consider it to be a RS. Spanneraol (talk) 14:50, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

• [8] -- Associated Press" not "associated press", -- supports statement, not close-paraphrasing
• [15] -- [a]: supports quote, although wiki-article says "i've" instead of "I've"; [b]: supports statement; [c]: supports statement and can't find any close-paraphrasing
• [16] -- supports statement
• [28] -- link doesn't work,
• [32] -- supports statement
• [40] -- supports statement that the deal benefited the Royals, although doesn't explicitly say it benefited Greinke
• [43] -- this article was written before his debut. He was obviously scheduled to play, but who knows what could have happened -- he may have got injured 5 mins before the match! Another ref is needed.
• [55] -- supports the statement, not close paraphrasing.
• [60] -- supports source, no close-paraphrasing
• [65] -- supports statement, no close-paraphrasing
• [75] -- supports statement

Reasonably happy with the spotchecks I've done of those 11 random references I checked. Found no close-paraphrasing, there are a couple of other problems you should look at though. I don't feel the need to check any more of them. Fix those, and the small number of remaining issues listed above and it'll be a pass. -- Shudde ^talk 02:46, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

I think i fixed everything that was remaining. Spanneraol (talk) 14:50, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm going to pass the article, but one thing: The SB Nation site includes fan-written, and expert-written articles. I'm 99% sure the link I posted above is an expert article, however fan-written articles would definitely NOT be considered a RS. You should double check those in the references -- it's pretty important. Apart from that congratulations! I enjoyed the read, and think the article meets the criteria now. Thanks for dealing with my comments, especially the more pedantic ones -- I hope you think it was worthwhile. -- Shudde ^talk 08:29, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, going through this process helps me improve my article writing for the future. The articles i've used from SB Nation are from the experts, i don't use the fan posts. Thanks again. Spanneraol (talk) 15:18, 2 June 2014 (UTC)