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Requested move 30 June 2020

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. —usernamekiran (talk) 07:31, 7 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]


Hélène Prévost → Yvonne Prévost – Bringing this move to WP:RM because the move was contested by User:Fyunck(click). The correct name for this individual is Yvonne Prevost, but since the standard for Wikipedia is verifiability before truth, let me address that first, since the quality of the source that this change is based off of was questioned. Olympedia is not a Wiki, it is a research database maintained by Bill Mallon, a 2001 recipient of the International Olympic Committee’s Olympic Order in Silver, and about two dozen others. The database used to provide data for the now-defunct Olympics portion of Sports Reference.com, which was listed as one of TIME Magazine’s best websites of 2010. The database itself was profiled for its quality in 2009 (see: Bulletin of the International Council for Sport Science and Physical Education, No. 57, September 2009, p. 8-9. (ISSN 1728-5909) Summer of ’64 and the Olympic Database by Bill Mallon, Arild Gjerde and Jeroen Heijmans supported by the OlyMADMen (Magne Teigen, David Foster, Hilary Evans, Taavi Kalju, Morten Aarlia Torp, Jørn Jensen, Christian Tugnoli, Martin Kellner)). Google searching “Olympedia public” (without quotations) uncovers numerous reliable sources reporting on and praising the release of Olympedia to the public for its comprehensiveness and accuracy. Finally, the data at Olympedia will eventually be the official IOC data, so I believe WP:V is satisfied in this case.

With verifiability out of the way, the next question is truth, since even reliable sources can be mistaken and can disagree. Many sources list her as Hélène Prévost, but it is important to keep in mind that journalists of the day often did not record the full names of athletes, even of an Olympic caliber, and particularly of women, who were often referred to as “Mrs. Husband’s Name”. If an error crept in, therefore, it was much easier to reproduce than in a contemporary setting where athlete’s full names are repeated thousands and thousands of times and mistakes are usually drowned out. French newspapers about her marriage to diplomat Auguste Boppe confirm that her name was Yvonne, not Hélène. How Hélène came to be more broadly accepted, I do not know, but the fact there was otherwise no biographical information (dates of birth and death, significant life details outside of competition results) available in sources we would consider reliable (such as the ITF) suggest strongly that we are not dealing with a situation of “was it Hélène or Yvonne who took part?”, but one where Hélène does not exist, or at least was not involved in tennis. Yvonne, on the other hand, has birth, death, and marriage certificates, as well as an obituary in Le Figaro. Now that there is a reliable source that makes this claim, and we can verify it, we should go for the more accurate claim rather than the more popular one (which can be mentioned in a footnote) when choosing between conflicting sets of information. Canadian Paul 04:19, 30 June 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 16:50, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep at Helene. At least for now. I have seen no proof that the Yvonne Prevost married in French Newspapers is the same as the Helene Prevost that played in the French Championships. Not all people back then have easily traceable roots. I do think that the Olympedia is a good source but even so it is not the official database of the Olympics. At least not yet. What we have confirmed by sources is that thus far, other than source-able tennis data, they can't find the background material on Helene Prevost. That is actually pretty darned common back then. We can see that the year after Prevost won the French title, P. Girod won it. No one can find info on her either. Olympedia did find info on a Yvonne Prevost, but it is not iron-clad from what I've seen. Olympidia seems to indicate it's their best guess. They could very well be correct, in fact I'd lean towards them being correct. But Wikipedia uses many sources that are directly attributed to the tennis player. Getty photo sources uses Helene. The International Tennis Federation Helene Prevost. We have books such as Women in Sport the Encyclopedia of Sports Medicine using Helene. I checked the Olympiandatabase.com and it uses Helene. Olympic.org uses Helene. We have Great Britain Olympics also using Helene. Not as compelling but a tennis historian Mark Ryan also uses Helene, as does the Tennis Hall of Fame. Now it could be that her name was Yvonne Helene Provost since there is a lot we don't know about tennis in that time period. There appears to at least one contemporary source that says there was a Helene Prevost that played tennis in France. Sisters? maybe. Same person... maybe. But with so many sources using Helene Prevost I'm not sure one Olympedia should be used to change things here. I know there is some evidence that Helene is really Yvonne, based on Yvonne being married to Boppe (who tried to murder her), but we aren't 100% sure of that. Olympidia I think is using their best educated guess. If it is truly going to be the main source for the Olympics then we can do a note saying the the official Olympics database uses Yvonne. If because of the switch to Olympedia, most of the other sources also change from the longstanding use of Helene, it seems to me that's when the article should change to Yvonne with Helene as the footnote. These are my thoughts on the issue. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:52, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    And one other thing that is strange is this obituary since you brought up "Le Figaro."
    From Le Figaro 18 February 1919 p. 2: Les obsèques de M. André Prevost (de Reims) auront lieu à Saint-Pierre de Chaillot, demain mercredi ig, à neuf heures et demie précises. Cette mort met en deuil Mme André Prevost, née Balourdet, etses enfants M.Jean Preyqst, MM. et Mmes René Gallice, Louis Budin, Pierre Giierlet, Mlles Madeleine et Hélène Prévost. Prière de considérer le pré- sent avis comme tenant lieu de faire-part. Ni fleurs ni couronnes. Roughly translated: [From "Le Figaro", 18 February, 1919, p. 2]: "The funeral of Mr André Prevost (of Reims) will take place tomorrow, Wednesday, at Saint-Pierre de Chaillot, at 9.30 exactly. This death places in mourning Mrs André Prevost, née Balourdet; and her children, Mr Jean Prévost, Mr and Mrs René Gallice, Louis Budin, Pierre Guerlet, the Misses Madeleine and Hélène Prévost...No flowers or wreaths."
    The book "Les Jeux Olympiques Oublies" by Andre Drevon mentions Andre and Helene were father and daughter.
    "Le dictionnaire des médaillés olympiques français" by Stephane Gachet gives the following for Andre: Full name Jean Marie André·Prévost...Born 26 March 1860 in Reims, Marne...Died 15 February 1919 in Paris.
    So Helene played with Andre Prevost on several occasions, and she was there at his funeral per these accounts. Helene may have never married. Helene and Yvonne could be cousins. Helene and Yvonne could be the same person. There's a lot of ifs on this French champion and I don't think we have enough to go on to change the name when we might be changing it to the wrong person. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:46, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Seeing your concerns, here is a bit more to demonstrate that Yvonne was the Olympian. This book, by a family member, identifies the Olympic tennis player as Yvonne in this preview (page 4). It lists Andre and Yvonne as brother and sister, so the two are indeed cousins as you suggested. Also, this article notes that Andre and Yvonne are siblings.
    That would indicate that Yvonne is definitely the Olympian. It is possible that I have reproduced an error that the Olympian is not the same person in that tennis player, but the French Wikipedia claims that they are one and the same and that they are Yvonne. Of course, other Wikipedias are not reliable sources, but it is well-sourced, and in the language of the athlete, which at least makes me think that this is not just a conflation of two individuals. Canadian Paul 03:35, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    It's certainly a very confusing family amid conflicting sources. The French wikipedia also gives info on Andre Prevost but it may be the wrong Andre Prevost. Here are some things we know:
    An André Prévost (1860-1919) married Miss Balourdet and had as one of their children, Hélène Prévost (1878-1942). André was Hélène's father and there are records of this and his 1919 newspaper obituary mentions both of them. The Book "The Forgotten Olympic Games: Paris 1900" by André Drevon says André and Hélène were father and daughter and played in the Olympics. The book "Le Dictionnaire des Médaillés Olympiques Français" by Stephane Gachet says the Andre that played in the Olympics was "Jean Marie André Prévost." Getty historical image library has tennis photos that are labeled as Helene Prevost.
    We also know a Yvonne Prévost (1978-1942) was the daughter of Ernest Prévost. André Adrien Hippolyte Prévost (1875-1951) was her brother. Per a Prévost family book, Yvonne played tennis. Another relative says they own a 1903 tennis trophy won in Switzerland. An 1899 tournament in Isle de Puteaux had at least three different Prévosts entered. An André Prévost and his sister won the handicap Mixed Doubles event.
    Because newspapers rarely gave female competitors first names all we usually see is André Prévost and Mlle Prévost. We are not 100% sure which André Prévost and Mlle Prévost.
    For all we know there were a dozen Prévost tennis players back then and both Yvonne and Hélène played. Some of the events attributed to Yvonne may have actually been Hélène, and vice versa. There could have been two different Andre's playing, one Yvonne's brother and one Hélène's father. Yvonne and Hélène could have been aunt and niece (my own aunt is actually the same age as I am). Yvonne and Hélène could be more distantly related. There is a lot of murkiness with the Prevost's and I'd hate to change one for the other, especially with most sourcing saying it's Hélène that played in the Olympics and French Championships. Perhaps there is a way to incorporate both sets of evidence, but I'm not sure how. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:12, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Just my two cents:

Jean Marie André Prévost's daughter Helene cannot be the Olympian as she was born in 1903. Jean Marie André Prévost married Aimé Louise Marie Balourdet in 1887 and their first child Nicole was born in 1888. So if Jean Marie André Prévost played with his eldest daughter at the 1900 Olympics, she would have been barely 12 years old. That doesn't correspond with the pictures we have of the tennis player from 1900 Olympics. Here is the link to his family tree, but if that is not sufficient I can provide the marriage and birth certificates of the family members. They are all available online, just not easily accessible like most French genealogical sources.

https://gw.geneanet.org/damien2631?n=prevost&oc=&p=jean+marie+andre

The current situation with Hélène Prévost's wiki page is that the birth and death date given belong to one Yvonne Prévost, who we think was actually the tennis player from 1900. I can also provide original birth and death certificates, but those, a bit incomplete family trees, should prove it:

https://gw.geneanet.org/pierfit?n=prevost&oc=&p=yvonne

https://gw.geneanet.org/familysoyer?n=prevost&oc=&p=paule+marie+yvonne

Although Prévost is a very common surname in France, I think it is very unlikely that there were two female Prévost's, one named Hélène and another Yvonne, who were born and died exactly at the same day and year.

Although there are almost nil contemporary sources that provide the 1900 Olympic tennis player's first name, those are the primary reasons we think that the Olympic competitor was Yvonne. First this thread:

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=570894.0

There is a post by Jacques Boppe, whose great-grandmother was Yvonne Prévost.

Secondly this book, which I don't have unfortunately access to:

http://www.ibacom.fr/retour-a-koenigswart/

This book is written by direct descendant of Fernand Prévost, older brother of Yvonne Prévost. (see family trees)

But there are small snippets of the book available here:

http://www.ibacom.fr/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Cahier-photo-light-REtour-K.pdf

If you look at page 4 of the pdf, you can find a family photo featuring Yvonne. If you compare them with those few available pictures of Olympic tennis player "Hélène" Prévost, you can see that they are quite similar, very likely to be the same person.

Anyway there are only two solutions for this situation with Hélène Prévost's wiki page: If to keep name Hélène, please delete birth and death info. If you want to keep birth and death info please change the name to Yvonne.

Now this is actually part of a bigger problem I would like to address, that has been kept quiet by Olympic historians for a long time. In early 1980s, Olympic historians were approached by one Swede Lennart Dahllöf (I hope he rots in hell!). Dahllöf had compiled huge lists of all Olympic competitors to that date and what was even more astonishing, he had first names of almost every early Olympic competitor. Although some historians raised eyebrows and asked for sources (which they never got!), most historians thought it was a tremendous work and started to copy the names to their own works. As you know, contemporary sources of early Games rarely contained first names, you were lucky if they contained even initials, so back in the 1980s, Dahllöf's lists were considered a huge work, thousand or even tens of thousands of hours sitting in various archives, flipping through pages and pages of newspapers and other material in front of microfilm reader screen. Dahllöf (I still hope he rots in hell!) died in early 1990 and although already during his lifetime, some questions had arisen about the quality of the data, it became widely accepted after his death that his lists were pile of sh*t. It seems that Dahllöf had just plainly invented thousands and thousands of first names of early Olympic competitors. But then a new problem rose. As in 1980s everybody had copied the names from Dahllöf and from each other and from third sources they had been able to find, nobody knew which names were "invented" and which were not. Also, Dahllöf's original lists got lost when he died. So now we sit on top of this huge mess and don't know which data is "good" and which "bad." Over the last 10 years, as digital newspaper and other archives have become available and searchable on internet, we have only managed to correct a bit more than 300 names. But there are more than thousand if not even more still waiting. They are the more obscure athletes from early games, of whom we have no biodata, but have a name. They all probably have wrong name, or in some cases very common name like John Smith. Here are some (very polite!) articles about the quality of Dahllöf's data, by top Olympic historians I know or knew personally (unfortunately Mr. Bijkerk is deceased).

http://isoh.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/36.pdf

http://isoh.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/88.pdf


Usually don't care what happens in Wikipedia, but fellow OlyMADMen member Canadian Paul brought this thread to my attention. I think that if Dahllöf had not introduced his "wonderful" lists to leading Olympic historians in 1980s, the tennis player would still named as "mlle. Prévost" and those two links I gave about Yvonne Prévost would be sufficient for a name change. And our goal to provide good and reliable data of all Olympic competitors and research new info about them would be much-much simpler.

PS. P. Girod is probably Mme. Pierre Girod, née Suzanne Richadine Poirson (1871-1926).

Taavi Kalju, member of OlyMADMen, who provide data for olympedia.org — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.246.244.29 (talk) 18:17, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Actually thanks a lot for this information. I do a lot of genealogy work myself but not French genealogy. It has convinced me that Yvonne is probably the tennis player and not Helene. However it clouds the Andre issue. The genealogy source you gave says that it was Jean Marie André Prévost that played and won at tennis, not Yvonne's brother. So the French wikipedia looks like it has the wrong Andre but the correct Yvonne. The only question here is allowing a family genealogy book as a source. With other information, including Helene's 1903 birth record, and Yvonne's ancestors still having a 1903 tennis trophy, I'd go with Yvonne. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:02, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
To confuse things even more there is an identical problem with Kate Gilou from the 1900 Olympics who is actually her sister Antoinette Gillou... Topcardi (talk) 11:45, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hello all. It's me and a fellow french wikipedian collegue that changed Yvonne and André Prévost birth and death dates. Like it was me who changed André and Marcel Vacherot birth and death dates and places in french. If we take example on the Vacherot brothers I don't know who put these birth dates of 1860 and 1864 in the first place. There was no birth act for those in the archives of their respective supposed birth towns at these dates. So when I found that one died in 1924 in Rouen and was a tennis player (from a newspaper on Gallica) I make researches and found the real birth and death dates for these two players. So if for the Vacherots phony birth and death dates and places were, why not for André Prévost. First when I make searches on Gallica for an Hélène Prévost I found nothing in tennis. But for an Yvonne Prévost and Mlle Prévost I found some news. So prabably Hélène Prévost was an invention like Michel Vacherot whose real name is Marcel Vacherot. I found on the Figaro an article that André Prévost and his sister won the double mixed île de Puteaux tournament in 1899. If you read the article, just above André Prévost and his sister... you read that Fernand Prévost won in semi-final men of this same tournament. I bet that this Fernand Prévost is the older brother of André and Yvonne. When I knew that André and Yvonne were brother and sister, and that we have the "good" Yvonne, I knew the birth and death date of André Prévost born in Rheims in 1860 was false because this André doesn't have the same parents than Yvonne on these respective birth acts. So I found the birth certificate of the real André Prévost here (act number 335 (view 1/31)) with the same parents names than Yvonne born in Dinard-St-Enogat in 1878, Ernest Prévost and Jeanne Königswarter. And it make sense that he was born in 1875 instead of 1860, because to win the 1900 tournament aged 40 years old it seemed illogic like for the Vacherots who were a lot younger in fact than born in 1860 and 1864. Thanks. --Danielvis08 (talk) 12:58, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, it was not unusual to have 40 year old players back then. Most of the age records still stand from the early days of tennis. While I can agree with Helene/Yvonne, the Andre's are still in question. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:20, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Another ref to Yvonne Prévost as a tennis player [1]. --Danielvis08 (talk) 13:19, 2 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Just got caught up on all of this... I have nothing additional to add, just wanted to say thanks to everyone who contributed. To further the points made here (the Dahllöf issue is actually new to me), Paul/Pierre Lebréton was the next athlete I was going to bring up once this discussion was resolved... there are a lot of these cases out there... Canadian Paul 04:04, 8 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And the name Rene Bolte that won the Canadian Women's Singles in 1938 you see on this page Canadian Open (tennis) and on the winners on the Rogers Cup official site is the name of the husband of the real winner Pauline Gadbois born in Montreal in 1908 and who married Rene Bolte in 1933 like explained on this facebook post in french. But it's not urgent since Pauline Gadbois/Rene Bolte has not a page on wikipedia (english or french). --Danielvis08 (talk) 19:24, 8 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per the well-presented nom, about as close to a courtroom opening argument in an RM I've read in awhile, and per what I understand to be a consensus among the editors discussing this (again, in really interesting detail, one of the best RM discussions I've read) that Yvonne is the subject's name. Or am I misreading the discussion? Will come back to this and read much of the parts I skipped because of length, and I look forward to appreciating it again. Randy Kryn (talk) 02:55, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 20:13, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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