Talk:Yumen Pass

Coordinate error

{{geodata-check}}

The following coordinate fixes are needed for These coordinates appear to place Yumen Pass in downtown Dunhuang. I believe the correct location is about 80km west of Dunhuang. —27.33.170.127 (talk) 11:48, 3 May 2011 (UTC)Conrad

 Declined — Current coords do not point to Dunhuang, and appear to be correct. If you still feel that correction is needed, please fee free to remove the "tlc|" from the geodata-check tag and say why you think that they point to Dunhuang. Regards, TRANSPORTERMAN (TALK) 17:38, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

References

Changes to the so-called "Fangpan Castle"

Someone has just changed the name of the monument in several places in the article which is clearly marked as the "Yumen Pass" in Chinese at the front, and on an official sign nearby with a map of the whole region (I have a photo of this sign which I will upload). In the meantime I will reverse the changes made today as, not only is there no other evidence of this edifice being called the "Fangpan Castel" on the un-sourced map this person supplied - but he or she who did the editing actually incorrectly copied the name given on this map as "Fanpan Castle." It seems someone has incorrectly copied map of uncertain provenance which has a different name for the spot than is found on the official signs. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 12:10, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Information sign at the site of The Small Fanpan Castle

Infomation abot Yumenguan form the site

Information sign about The Small Fangpan Castle

Yumengaun (Yumen Pass) is the name for the whole area (included two fortification, the great wall in the area and 20 beacon towers.) Many people think that The Small Fanpan Castle actually is Yumen Pass, but it is just a part of it, and it is a good reason to correct this misunderstand. If you can read Chinese, then please Google "小方盘城" and it will be clear for you. Below you will also find some pictures of information signs that are located close to The Small Fanpan Castle. I think is enough evidence. If not - then I have many more information signs that confirm my statement if needed. --Bairuilong (talk) 14:27, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

When I have the time, I will extend the article to clearly explain the whole emanating of "Yumen Pass" including all the beacon towers and also The Big Fanpan Castle that you can see on the map. --Bairuilong (talk) 14:41, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

I haven now also added a link as a refenence to the picture for the information sign. --Bairuilong (talk) 15:18, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Yumen Pass and the “Small Fangpan Castle”

Dear Bairuilong: I apologize if I sounded rude last night when I reversed your changes to this article - it was very late at night, and I was tired. I think I can see what you are talking about now - it is obvious they have changed some signs near the site when I was there in 2011. Perhaps we can both work on this site to make it better and more accurate?

1. The name “Small Fangpan Castle” sounds very strange in English as a “castle” usually refers to a large fortified building or set of buildings. The Wiktionary (see: [1]) gives as its first definition: “1. A large building that is fortified and contains many defences; in previous ages often inhabited by a nobleman or king.” It is somewhat misleading to refer to such a fortified gate in English as a “castle.” Moreover, 城 cheng is usually translated in English as a "walled town" or a city. The English word “castle” is usually translated into Chinese as: 城 堡.

The words fang pan (not fan pan as is mistakenly given in one place – I will correct that today) seem to me unlikely to be a place-name. I have read many descriptions of Yumenguan both in the Chinese histories as well as in the modern archaeological literature and I have never seen 方盘 Fangpan given as a name.

The translations of the two characters given in my dictionaries include:

方- fang1 feng1 pang2 wang3 – square, rectangle; region, local, place.

盘 - pan2 - tray, plate, dish; examine, check, examine, transfer, carry, transport, market, impost, tax, tribute.

So, I would think a more accurate translation of the legend in your map: 小方盘城 xiao fang pan cheng, would be something like ‘Small Walled Checkpoint,” or “Small Walled Tax Point or Market.”

However, it seems to me that you are probably a native speaker of Chinese – so please let me know if you think I am mistaken. I would like to ask you opinion about my proposed translation. Would this description fit – or maybe can you suggest a better one, please?

I understand that it is not you who have given "fang pan" this name - but maybe we should try to get the authorities to give it a better-sounding and more accurate title in English?

When I was there in 2011 there were several signs nearby – all of which I photographed. At that time there was no mention of all of a 小方盘城 or anything like it. I will paste in some of the photos of signs I took here so that you and others can check them with me.

The last photo at the bottom, showing the building with a large stone in front of it, which reads: 玉門遣址 Yu4 men3 qian3 zhi3 clearly inscribed on it.

My dictionaries give the following meanings for these characters;

玉 yu4 – jade; 門 men3 – gate; 遣 qian3 – dispatch, dispel, send, send off, exile;

址 zhi3 – location, site, place. I would, therefore, translate it as something like: “Jade Gate Exit” or “Jade Gate Dispatch Point.”

The sign on the other side of the building (with the man leaning on it) simply says: 玉门关 or Yumenguan – “The Jade Gate Frontier Pass.”

There was no mention in any of the signs I saw, or in any of the literature I have read, of anything like the 小方盘城 you suggest on the basis of these maps.

Perhaps we need to mention in the article, that the Yumen fortifications covered a large area and that this building was only the final western end of the walls and, in early times, represented the western end of Chinese territory?

However, I have little doubt that the building in the photos represents the gate in the walls which opened to the west and I think is should preferably referred to as something like: “The Jade Gate Frontier Pass” or, simply: "The Jade Gate Pass" - as in one of the photos, rather than “The Fangpan Castle.”

I look forward to any comments you or any other readers might have. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 08:39, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Apologize accepted.

It is new information for me also. One week ago I would have agreed with your oppinion. I am in Dunhuang now, and saw this a few days ago. Thats why I think it is interesting to publish it.

Actually I don't think that the Small Fangpan is the real main gate in Yumenguan. Look at the picture I put below yours. This is a photo of a simplified model of Yumenguan that is shown at the Yangguan-site. (North is down to the left on the picture). The Small Fangpan don't directly connect to the Great Wall.

I am not a native Chinese speaker, but I know the base, and I have Chinese people around me. It is not easy to translate Chinese names, and it could get real bad if you by a dictionary translate character by character. An alternative translation that I have seen is "Small Square Castle". I think maybe that any of "Small Square Fortification / Fort / Fortress" sounds better. Or just say "Small Fangpan" and skip the "Castle". Lets keep the work going...--Bairuilong (talk) 10:47, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Yumen Pass details, 2011

Sign saying Yumen Guan Frontier Pass, 2011

Part of model of Yumenguan

Sign saying Yumen Pass Dispatch Point, 2011