Talk:Ysgol Llanhari

Just to note, it's not nonsense, it's written in Welsh (translates as Gyfun Llanhari school). Probably non-notable or vanity though, so I'm not contesting the CSD. -- Tivedshambo (talk) 16:19, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Heh, oops! That's a bit embarrassing. Nice catch. -Merope 17:57, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

needs more - you do know you can create a page in welsh ... and persian and .... etc Victuallers 19:45, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Welsh motto and translation

I recently made an edit to note that the translation of the motto 'Gorau gwaith gwasanaeth' is 'service is the best work'. In response, 78.147.25.72 noted 'incorrect: original translation was correct. Yours is a word for word translation. Do you honestly believe 'service is the best work' is accurate?'. Teigr has noted 'Lets put this to bed. It's 3 words separated by commas. This is the de facto translation. Now please leave alone.'

There's obviously some disagreement, so here are a few comments. But firstly, in response to 78.147.25.72, I would only edit Wikipedia in a way that I 'honestly believe' is accurate. I may not always be correct and should I err I would always be grateful for correction in a manner consistent with Wikipedia's house rules.

There are two issue here: the exact form of the motto and its translation.

I think that it is clear that the motto in question should be 'Gorau gwaith gwasanaeth'. My main reason for saying this is that the motto has a grammatical structure which is very common in mottoes. As noted on a BBC website on Welsh proverbs, for instance, phrases such as 'Gorau arf, arf dysg' ('The weapon of learning is the best weapon') are often adopted as school/college mottoes. A similar motto is that of the Football Association of Wales, 'Gorau chwarae cyd-chwarae' (literally, 'playing together is the best play', more loosely 'playing together is the best way to play'). Another similar proverb is 'Gorau cyfaill, llyfr da' ('a good book is the best friend'). Grammatically, the pattern is 'Gorau X Y' = 'Y is the best X'. So 'Gorau gwaith gwasanaeth' means 'service is the best work' or more loosely 'service is the best kind of work'. It's a very appropriate meaning for a community school.

The version with commas doesn't really make much sense: 'Gorau, gwaith, gwasanaeth' ('Best, work, service'). The three words are grammatically unconnected. In fairness, though, I see that the commas are included in the motto as given on the school's website. I'm sure that's an error. As might be expected for a formal motto, the 'Gorau X Y' construction is not something that would appear in everyday Welsh and so it would be easy for a transcription error to occur. But in this facebook discussion on school mottoes, the three former Llanhari pupils (I assume) all use the version without commas. In fact, I've just found Llanhari's 6th form prospectus, which has the motto without commas as well.

Another Glamorgan school has 'Gorau gwaith gwasanaeth' (no commas) as a motto: Cynffig Comprehensive School. As it says on its website, 'A literal translation of our motto is 'The best kind of work is to serve'.'

So I think it's clear that the motto should be 'Gorau gwaith gwasanaeth' (no commas). I'd be happy with the translation 'service is the best kind of work', but other variations are possible. Unless there any further comments, I'll re-edit. We should probably draw the school's attention to it as well. Troellwr (talk) 18:58, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

As a fluent Welsh speaker, and a member of staff at Llanhari for 15 years, I dispute your findings. There have always been commas in the motto. If you would like to engage with me on this feel free. Teigr (talk)

I'm always happy to discuss. I've tried to support my statements with evidence but let me know if anything is unclear. As I said, I know that the school has used the motto both with and without commas (as indeed it still does). And it may well be that the school has used a version with commas for a long time. But I've tried to show why the form without commas (the form also used at Cynffig) is the correct form. Troellwr (talk) 20:41, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi. Sorry. Not sure if I should be posting this here. But the actual school badge has commas in it (as printed on school literature and on uniforms). As a native welsh speaker, I'd also dispute your extrapolation from other mottos, which seem to be arbitrarily based on 'x and y are this here (e.g. The FAW) therefore it always applies'. You also seem to have made the bizarre assumption that the school's website has an error (as it has the commas), yet a Facebook page created by ex-pupils is correct (as it doesn't). So a formal page, checked by the senior management team in the school (i.e.the school website) is incorrect?? Sorry. No. My parsnips remain unbuttered by your 'evidence'. Mainly for the reasons that your evidence is flawed, but moreso that I am fluent in Welsh. You appear not to be.

I've made an amendment to the motto based on the the above. PLEASE leave this alone. I can see I'm not the first to dispute this post. I can also see that a former member of staff has corrected you, yet you remain unwilling to edit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.221.205.167 (talk) 23:15, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments above. There are clearly divergent but sincerely held views on this. So I've had another look at the sources available, and I think that the picture is clearer than it was when I last posted.

But I'll start by addressing the points raised above. Firstly, the school website. You say that I chose to ignore the school website and accept a form found on a facebook page. But in fact I noted that the website had examples of the motto both with and without commas and I also included a link to the 6th form prospectus that had the form without commas. So there was clearly an incorrect form on the website back then; the question was which one. A facebook page is clearly far less important than the school website, but it was only there to show that at least some people outside the school do use the motto without commas. As such it doesn't help much.

I also tried to show that the motto without commas had a gramatical pattern that was typical of mottos. You dispute that, but I can't really see where you think the problem lies. So I'll leave that for now.

You mention that an editor who said they were a former member of staff disagreed with me, which is true. I did invite her/him to continue the discussion but s/he did not do so. So, as no evidence was provided there was no reason to change the entry. Wikipedia operates on the basis of the validity of references rather than on the status of editors, so whether or not an editor is a former staff member or a fluent Welsh-speaker is not the issue, but what kind of evidence they can provide.

To go back to the issue of the form of the mottos, the school's new homepage uses the form without commas. You may still feel that's wrong, but as it's from a highly reputable source wikipedia guidlines say that that's the form that should be used in this entry, unless an equally reputable published source disagrees.

That leaves the translation. Again, I've tried to find a reputable source. So here's a story about the school from the Western Mail. The motto there is translated as 'Your best work is to serve'. For clarity I'll put brackets around 'your' as the words 'dy' or 'eich' are not part of the motto, but otherwise I'll leave it as it is, with a reference.

I am certain that the form without commas is correct, but strictly speaking my opinion is irrelevant. It's the quality of the sources that matter. So I'll re-edit the entry in line with the sources I've noted above.Troellwr (talk) 10:51, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

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