Talk:Yom Kippur/Archive 1

Archive 1

Christian terms.

Should Bible be replaced with Torah, and "Hebrew Bible" with "Tanakh"? Are there some articles that should use "G-d" instead of "God"? -- Jeandré, 2004-09-24t19:33z

Bible, in this article, is probably synonymous with "Hebrew Bible" and "Tanakh". Please note that "Torah" only comprises the first five books of the Bible. I would discourage use of "G-d". This is a practice reserved for print, to allow for discarding it after use without destroying God's name. JFW | T@lk 11:43, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I say do it, so long as you explain what they mean in Secular terms. The idea is to have this article look like a Jew wrote it, how he or she would write it. HereToHelp 20:31, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

re: "G-d". The way I have seen it explained is that it is not written out anyplace where it might be destroyed in some manner. This usually includes electronic messageboards and email (deletion = destruction), but it may be a matter of individual choice. That being said, however, to do it here would make it harder for non-Jews to read. There's got to be some modern halacha on it, I'm sure, but I'm not sure what the practice is when you're dealing with a general consumption text as opposed to a text with a purely Jewish audience. MSJapan 00:32, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

re: re: "G-d": I had a class in which the teacher discouraged using a dash. The term "God" is merely an English appellation that carries no inherent holiness (ie: is not forbidden to erase) as it is not in Hebrew. Even the most popular Aramaic term for God, Rachmana ("The Merciful One") the earliest use of a term for God of Israel not in the Hebrew vernacular is mentioned in the Talmud as being a term that can be used in non-holy states. The teacher weaned us off the dash practice because it implies that a language other than loshn kodesh, the Holy Tongue of Hebrew, can be imbued with divine holiness. I say keep the dash out of it. --Valley2city^₪‽ 07:55, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Under no circumstances should bible be replaced with Torah. That is very disrespectful. Jews call their holy book the Torah, not the Hebrew bible. Christians call their holy book the Bible. The Muslims call their holy book the Koran. Asking that question is like asking whether the term bible should be replaced with torah.

Please sign your entries. I agree with Jeandre, it should be replaced with Torah. That is the Hebrew name. --Jbanning22 14:12, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Because it occurs in Leviticus, it is in the Torah, but it would probably more correct to call the "Hebrew Bible" the Tanach rather than the Torah. The Tanach is the whole thing: the Torah, Nevi'im, and Ketu'vim. Calling the Hebrew Bible the Torah would be like calling the Christian Bible the Gospels. ('Gospels' only refers to Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John, right?)Sir Akroy 22:44, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Avodah Service

Would there be any merit to adding a section on the Avodah Service? I feel it is relevant since this service on Yom Kippur was the one time in the year when both the Holy of Holies is entered and the Name of God uttered.

Definitely. I think the current one needs expanding. I'll get started on the modern "reenactment" but if there is anyone who is an expert on the topic, please chime in. --Valley2city^₪‽ 16:17, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Holidays

You may be interested in the WikiProject, WikiProject Holidays, a WikiProject that will focus on standardizing articles about Holidays. It has been around for quite some time, but I'm starting it up again, and would like to see some more members (and our original members) around the help out. Cheers. — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 21:12, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Great! Sadly, only a small percentage of the Wiki community know enough to write, although they can always research it. But that puts this in Secular terms; I don't want that. It gives it an "unJewish" feel--se my comment above. HereToHelp 20:34, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

"heathen" nations?

"Heathen" seems like a loaded word, with derogatory connotations, at least in the absence of any explanation of the term. Could it be replaced with something more easily understood, or explained in context? Peter 20:13, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

I've replaced it with "other", which is neutral. JFW | T@lk 21:16, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Kol Nidre clarification

The passage on the Kol Nidre is unclear for those who are not already familiar with it (and, as it stands, gives support to the anti-semitic version). Information from the Kol Nidre article should be summarized by someone familiar with the subject (that person, sadly, is not me) and added to the article.

I removed all related material; only a wikilink remains. Everything will now be on the Kol Nidre page. JFW | T@lk 21:16, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Please revisit that section, JFW, because sometime between your edit in 2005 and Yom Kippur 2008, the text has been revised to be misleading again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.240.50.137 (talk) 00:44, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Big update

I have added some actual observances and their sources. More are to come. The page suffered from JewishEncyclopedia syndrome and I hope this redresses the balance somewhat. JFW | T@lk 21:16, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Azazel

Under The Temple Service there is discussion of the meaning of Azazel without any link. This discussion is a small subset of that which appears under Azazel. My preference would be to rip most of it out and rely on the link, but this seemed like a drastic enough change to warrent discussion. Heptazane (talk · contribs)

Well, the link should be there. It is the subject of much speculation, but this page should contain only a passing mention of the whole thing. JFW | T@lk 01:15, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Significance

The "Significance" sidebar says, "... and for the Golden calf". Should this be explained in the body?

This certainly should. It is important for the context of the day. This is the day where the second set of tablets were presented to the people at Sinai and our sins during the presentation of the first ones (17th of Tammuz, Golden Calf) were finally expiated, hence, Day of Atonement. This is vital to understanding the original point of the holiday.Valley2city 05:44, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

External link: Ritualwell.org

This site is neither commercial nor personal. It is owned by the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College, which is on a par with the Jewish Theological Seminary and Hebrew Union College/Jewish Institute of Religion. Linking to this site is of the same nature as linking to the external links extant for the entry. Funganny July 27, 2006

Wikipedia has a very strict policy regarding placing external links on a page. See Wikipedia:External links to read about these guidelines. If you still think that link belongs after reading the page, explain here why. Jon513 09:09, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

This page is not a good example of what I wish to reference, since it has few external links. Better examples are Sukkot and Pesach. For these holidays and numerous others, the external links which predominate reflect only one segment of Jewish traditions and practice.

Since Judaism doesn’t have a “central authority,” even within Orthodox Judaism, interpretations of law and resulting practices and traditions vary. In adding links to Ritualwell.org, I sought (a) to be respectful of what was written in the main article by not making changes or additions to allow for the other streams of Judaism and (b) to add an additional POV – that of women – since what is otherwise represented is almost exclusively male oriented.

It is worth noting that Ritualwell.org is pluralistic, including traditions ranging from Orthodox to “secular.” A case in point is the JOFA women’s seder, the O and F standing for Orthodox Feminist.

Thank you for your attention to this.

Funganny

There is no need to "respect" what has been written in the article and avoid making changes or additions. Wikipedia is a wiki that anyone can edit and we encourage everyone to be bold and make edits. That being said, you must also be careful to respect wikipedia polices, such as verifiabilty and netural point of view. Realize that to say that the orthodox perpective of Yom Kippur (or torah in general) is male oriented is strongly POV. Therefore to add a perpective of "women" (which women? - not orthodox women) would not make sence. Adding a perpective of reform or reconstructionist however would be welcome. Do not misrepesent Ritualwell. It does not represent traditions "ranging from orthodox to secular"; it represents traditions ranging from reform to secualar [1]. Which again, such perpectives are welcome as long as they are represented as such. If you are not sure if something is NPOV try this useful rule of thumb "An article is neutral if, after reading it, you cannot tell where the author's sympathies lie. An article is not neutral if, after reading it, you can tell where the author's sympathies lie". Jon513 17:54, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not interested in nor qualified to reinvent the wheel. That's why I originally added links to ritualwell. I followed your link, above, but saw nothing there to support your statement. That was immaterial to the issue at hand, if not downright gratuitous. Funganny 7 August 2006

the most holy day?

I've heard equally strong arguments in favor of the Sabbath as being just as holy if not more holy than Yom Kippur. I'll wait a bit before being bold and changing the proclamation in the first paragraph.

Yom Kippur is The Sabbath of the year, anyway you look into it. Do not change the article. Michagal 16:11, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. I would like to debate the affirmation of Yom Kipur being the most Holy Day. This is in fact a common question often asked to jews in study groups (perhaps to challenge their own views of their religion) or to people that is on the path of convertion to Judaism: "What is the most holy/important/sacred day of the year?"

It is a common mistake to answer Yom Kippur. The most important day of the Jewish year IS INDEED the SHABBAT - so much that, if any holidays fall over the Shabbat, the laws of Shabbat observance MUST take priority. If you follow the logic (oy!) if Shabbat takes priority over Yom Kippur, Sukkot, Kol Nidrei, etc. it is therefore the holiest day of the year. Ask any Rabbi (I did) [2] --Pinnecco 12:53, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Shabbos is indeed higher on the scale than any other holiday. Moreover, there should be something in the Talmud (if not the Tanakh) about it. Therefore, rather than debating it without proof, finding a citation will solve the problem outright. MSJapan 00:26, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree - I will make sure I ask my Rabbi to where I can find written information about it so we can put an end to this discussion --Pinnecco 10:22, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I had the chance to speak with two Rabbis today (Erev Sukot) about this issue: One is Rabbi is from the Reform movement and the other if from the Modern Orthodox movement. Both Rabbis agreed that SHABBAT is indeed the holiest holyday of the Jewish calendar and NOT YOM KIPUR. One compeling argument to support this is that The 10 Commandments says to remmember and keep the Shabbat -- not remmember and keep the Yom Kippur, and Rabbis tend to consider this a very compeling argument. The statement should be ALTERED. --Pinnecco 00:14, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

For the record, one of the Rabbis I consulted is Rabbi Rodney Mariner from the Belsize Square Synagogue in London. He is also the head (Convernor) of the Beit Din for the Reform movement in Great Brittain (the one at the Sternberg Centre). The other Rabbi is from an Orthodox Synagogue close to Chalk Farm, his first name is Michael but I don't remember more because I just met him on a Erev Sukkot dinner. --Pinnecco 08:27, 18 October 2006 (UTC) Please note: I am the Orthodox rabbi quoted here. Pinnecco's comments are not an accurate description of what I said. Yom Kippur is a holier day than Shabbat. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Micky105 (talk • contribs) 21:16, 1 September 2007

I think there is a basic consensus to CHANGE this statement as it is not encyclopedic or verifiable. To every single Rabbi I have talked to and to my own personal study, the Sabbath is more important and holier than Yom Kippur. I usually judge these things based on two criteria: the number of Aliyot and the penalty for violating them. Yom Kippur has 6 aliyot and the penalty is excisement from the Jewish People (or however you define kareit). Though this is both more Aliyot and penalty than any other festival, it is still less than Shabbat on both counts. Shabbat has 7 aliyot and the penalty is death. Yom Kippur is only around because of the Jewish people and they are the ones to sanctify it (hense the prayer order "King of the universe who sanctifies [Shabbat,] Israel and the Day of Atonement. Shabbat is the only holiday that happens because God Himself has sanctified it through Creation and exists even without the Jewish people. Shabbat happens every seventh day no matter what. Yom Kippur can conceivably be postponed by a day or so if the New Moon is not established. Michagal, to say that we should not change the article based on something you have decided is not sufficient. Wikipedia is a fluid and ever-changing enyclopedia and requires information to be verified. In addition people are allowed to change whatever they want and considering this overwhelming support, I think this merits a change. Valley2city 05:39, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

It's fairly common knowledge that while Yom Kippur is the most important of what are accepted as the 12 major "holidays" (see [3]), Shabbat is the holiest day of any week, and thus the year. Many Rabbis will even mention this fact during the Yom Kippur service so as to encourage weekly attendance. Given the consensus here, especially the fact that Pinnecco actually asked two diverse Rabbis about the issue, it's quite clear that the statement should be revised. I've gone ahead and done this, recasting it as "one of the most important days" rather than the single most important day. Dbratton 09:08, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I got into a very brief discussion about this, and apparently there is a rabbinic consensus that Hoshana Rabbah is the holiest day of the year. It's a little off-topic, but I had never heard this before. Does anyone know what the sources are on this? MSJapan 02:41, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Hoshanah Rabbah is judgment day for gentiles, and I believe that while it is sort of the end of the "High Holidays", Yom Kippur is considered the most holy day of the year. The Sabbath is the holiest of the days of the week. It is not the holiest day. Do not be confused. Yom Kippur is holier than the Sabbath, and it does take president over the Sabbath. For example, although one is not allowed to fast on the Sabbath, if the two coincide, we do not push of the fast of Yom Kippur and do fast on the Sabbath. End of story. HaravM 21:59, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid this will actually be a teyku, that we don't have a definitive answer. If Yom Kippur falls on Shabbat, we do not say Avinu Malkeynu and we truncate selichot until Neilah, when Shabbat has technically ended. Penalties for violating Shabbos are more severe than penalties for violating Yom Kippur. Sages have been arguing this for millennia; I don't think we will come up with the conclusive answer. --Valley2city^₪‽ 05:49, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Could we say something to the effect, "Although religious leaders generally agree that Shabbat is the most important Jewish holiday, in America many Jews only celebrate celebrate Yom Kikkur and no other holidays, raising its prominence." 216.90.172.158 19:55, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Bicycles.

[Observances among secular Jews?]

“Yom Kippur there has the nickname ‘Festival of Bicycles.’” According to whom?

This is nonsense. Where is the reference for this absurd assertion?

--Lance6968 18:00, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I got the source for it and edited it in.

~~

I followed your link; it doesn't justify the quote. At best this is an obscure reference in Israel, but even admitting that much, is, as yet, unjustified.

The practices of secular Jews, I aver, has nothing to do with normative Judaism; that, by itself, raises a reasonable question of why this topic is even in the article.

I would suggest that an entire article on the practices of secular Jews, something quite separate and apart from Judaism, may be an interesting contribution.

--Lance6968 01:28, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a general encyclopedia, not an encyclopedia of Judaism, normative or otherwise. If the content meets notability and verifyability criteria it belongs. For better or for worse, Yom Kippur is the name of a national as well as a religious holiday in Israel. --Shirahadasha 05:59, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Question: why is this sentence in the Observances among Secular Jews section? "On Yom Kippur in 2006, many children in Israel were injured while cycling or skating – 95 of whom required medical attention from Magen David Adom crews." This is a current event that has no place in an encyclopedia.

130.64.80.155 17:29, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[Add a section] Should a section about the fact that many people consider this a non-official no transportation holiday and therefore many people go out with bicycles and such? Is this encyclopedic? Michaelas10 16:54, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

It's an interesting phenomenon, but it's already touched on in the Observances among secular Jews section:

In Israel, public non-observance (such as eating or driving a motor vehicle) is taboo. Yom Kippur there has the nickname "Festival of Bicycles," [1] referring to children's practice of freely riding their bicycles in the streets without motor vehicles presenting danger.

Any additional information (which should be limited, given the relative unimportance to the holiday in general) should be added there - an entire additional section is overkill. Dbratton 17:09, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I'll merge whenever I can. Michaelas10 18:11, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I've done merging. I left the verify tag on the merged section. Michaelas10 21:02, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Looks good to me. I removed the verify tag, as the addition is well-cited. Dbratton 09:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't actually think that is technically the case. It is true, at least according to an LA Times article I read a number of years ago, that extremely secular Jews in Israel ride their bikes in the empty streets on Yom Kippur. This probably owes to the fact that almost everyone, even the most unaffiliated "חילוני" Jews are in the Synagogue this one day in the year, and therefore the streets are deserted. I know this true of Jerusalem on any given sabbath, having walked in the middle of the road for many blocks walking to and from the synagogue and meals. As for it being a "a non-official no transportation holiday", Yom Kippur is the only holiday that has almost equal standing with the Sabbath in terms of its work restrictions (You can cook on all the other ימי טוב (Festivals) that fall on weekdays, but all of these traditionally carry prohibitions against riding. I am actually unaware of rules governing bicycles as opposed to things traditionally prohibited riding: animals and automobiles. Valley2city 19:41, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

As I saw it yesterday, the streets were completely filled with people with bicycles, a large part of them did go to the synagogue. I think this does worth a mention, at least a paragraph. I will write it whenever I'll have time. Michaelas10 17:41, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I've added the section. I've also added a verify tag to the section because I'm not completely sure of what I wrote as I wrote it from a lot of personal knowledge. Please verify the section using online resources and remove the tag. Michaelas10 18:47, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted a few changes done to the section recently:

• 1. I think getting medical attention the Magen David Adom crews is important since it's different from getting medical attention generally, because getting medical attention from them is immediate and isn't done in the hospital.
• 2. Ground human-powered transport vechicals shouldn't be replaced with human-powered transport vechicals as there are human-powered transport vechicals that work in the sky or in water.
• 3. Don't replace Yom Kipur eve with Kol Nidre, Kol Nidre usually refers to the prayer.
• 4. It gained popularity in all the Jewish communities in the recent decades, not only Israel.

Michaelas10 07:08, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Your reverts also re-inserted "vechical", which is not a word. It's "vehicle". As for MDA crews, were there any other medical services active, it being Yom Kippur? MSJapan 19:43, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I didn't note that change when I was reverting, sorry. I don't think there are any other medical services in Israel, well the provided news article didn't state any. Michaelas10 20:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

So, if there was no other option but to receive treatment from MDA, is it really noteworthy of inclusion? On further thought, if electric vehicles are prohibited, is it even noteworthy that people ride bikes and skateboards, considering that one has to get to shul somehow? The accident totals might be an intersting fact to add to the article, but I'm wondering if it deserves a separate section. MSJapan 20:44, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

It will be merged to an other section of the article, see the above comments. Michaelas10 20:48, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[Relevance of paragraph] I am just curious as the relevance of the following statement: "On Yom Kippur in 2006, many children in Israel were injured while cycling or skating – 95 of whom required medical attention from Magen David Adom crews." This seems completely irrelevant to the topic.

Naugahyde 21:33, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The use of the vacant roads by secular Israelis for riding bicycles is unquestionable, and its name as "Bicycle day" (יום האופניים) or "Bicycle Festival" (חג האופניים) is quite common terminology and not a mere "obscure reference in Israel". See search results [4] and [5] which include spelling variants. jnothman ^talk 10:05, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Rabbi Chaim Zimmerman, one of the greatest Rabbis of hiis generation, officially decided that the rules of riding a bicycle and of pushing a baby carriage are the same. Therefore, assuming deference to rules of Muktsa and Eruv, anyone may indeed ride a bicycle on Yom Kippur. Rebele | Talk ^{The only way to win the game is to not play the game.} 23:35, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Religious themes

To editor--My non-Jewish colleagues looked up Yom Kippur on wikipedia and asked me about what they read. So I read the Yom Kippur page and was hugely disappointed.

How can the religious themes section--THE MOST important section on the page--only have two sentences? Only already observant and engaged people who are already in the know care about the details of the service and halachic regulations involved. You're only discussing BEHAVIOR and not THEOLOGY and PHILOSOPHY. In my view this page is an embarrassment to our brilliant religion.

Would you please take the time to elaborate on this section--I personally think it should be FIRST--and the details of the service should be fleshed out to explain its very meaningful symbolism and relevance to the modern person. My goodness, any non-Jew (or Jew who doesn't know better) reading this page would think that American Jews are spending the day praying for sacrifices and the Temple back! Wikipedia should be educational, and this page does not educate anyone about this holiday and WHY we observe it. The HOW on the observance is irrelevant and blasphemous if the WHY isn't there. (and "because HaShem said" is just the p'shat, of course).

There are great writings out there about the meaning of Yom Kippur. READ a little and broaden your chagim next year and hopefully that of anyone looking to wikipedia to find out more about it. In the scholarly Jewish world, religious life does extend outside the narrow viewpoint of halachic existence, as beautiful as that world is.

Thanks--from an observant AND THINKING Jew who finds this entire article hopelessly inane. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mattshira (talk • contribs) 18 October 2007

Untane Tokef / Rabbi Amnon of Mainz

Does anyone agree that Untane Tokef and the legend of its authorship deserves a separate article? Anyway, as it is Erev Yom Kippur as I write this, Gmar Chatima Tova to all. If I have done anything to you or your articles to piss you off in the past year, I apologize. That's right; WikiTeshuva! Valley2city 19:30, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

It probably does. On a relate note, the quoted part needs to be sourced (which it is not), as it is a translation, and those can vary from Siddur to Siddur. MSJapan 00:21, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

See Unetanneh Tokef. Benqish (talk) 13:38, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Greeting.

Okay, for Christmas you say "Merry Christmas", for Easter "happy Easter". What do you say for Yom Kippur? --Midnighttonight remind to go do uni work! 02:33, 2 October 2006 (UTC) One answer: Have a good fast.68.41.169.186 16:40, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

"Chatimah Tovah" (May you be sealed for good). --Shirahadasha 02:22, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Sometimes rendered as "Gmar Chatima Tova". I don't really like "Have a good fast" or "Have an Easy Fast" (Hebrew: Tzom Kal). It's not supposed to be an easy fast! The whole point, according to the Torah, is "to afflict your souls". If one were to talk about the fast, my favorite is "have a meaningful fast". --Valley2city^₪‽ 05:52, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Temple Service?

What are the references for "Service in Temple in Jerusalem?" It seems like an extrapolation from Leviticus, chapter 16 concerning the tent of meeting with some additions which may be conjectural.

The reference has been provided -- Talmud Tractate Yoma. It's in the reference section. Some of the elements (like the number of garment changes and ritual baths, what happens to the goat for Azazel, etc.) are not in Leviticus, and the service is in a slightly different order. This is very standard stuff. A summary of it is in every traditional prayer book. --Shirahadasha 02:13, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Remembering the Temple service

What is the reference for this statement: "...most Conservative synagogues, a detailed description of the Temple ritual is recited on the day, and the entire congregation prostrates themselves"(?) The last six words appear to be factually incorrect. Prostrate meaning "to fall down flat on the ground, face down." I have never witnessed this; has anyone? LarG 15:20, 2 October 2006 (UTC)LarG

Yes and no. There is one part of the service where the congregation has the option to fully genuflect to the floor by bowing fully forward to the floor from a kneeling position; the presence of seats often precludes this. I have seen it demonstrated and explained, but never done. MSJapan 00:18, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

This is regularly done in Orthodox synagogues. I did it this morning. It is also done in some traditionalist Conservative synagogues, but not most. "Postration" may be inexact languague, as MSJapan points out it involves falling to the knees with the forehead on the floor. --Shirahadasha 02:13, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

On reflection, I think this article could be re-done with a large emphasis on beliefs and religious practices; and (a smaller) area on historical beginnings. Presumably, cultural anthropologists would see the beginnings of this holiday in the sacrificial elements as mentioned in the Bible. While there may be historical underpinnings to Talmudic remembrances, it should not be presented as history, but belief.

The "according to the Talmud" covers the issue of how reliable the source is. Wikipedia's general approach to living religions has been to present the religion as the religionists see and describe it, then to present scholarly commentary on it. Judaism articles generally present Orthodox perspectives first, then Conservative/Reform/Reconstructionist perspectives. Articles on Christianity and Islam aren't run any differently. The Temple service is presented not because of modern thoughts about its origins but because of the contemporary role it plays in the religion. It's also commom to use religious sources present the religious perspective. The Temple looms large in Orthodox perspectives, although less so to not at all in other perspectives. --Shirahadasha 14:14, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps some "modern" philosophical flavors via Buber, Rosenzweig, or even Kaplan might be useful?

Feel free to add these, they would go in a section identifying whose perspectives they are as e.g. "Contemporary Reform (or Progressive Jewish or some such thing) Perspectives" It's entirely possible that the Orthodox view is over-represented at this point, feel free to add more information about the Reform or other views. Per WP:NPOV, there is no "Wikipedia" view. --Shirahadasha 14:24, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Anecdotally: while I was once told of the absolute devotion of Orthodox Jewry in Europe during the Yom Kippur service in the early 1900s; during fifty years of experience in Orthodox and Conservative congregations I have never witnessed any of the congregation prostrating themselves. If someone were to prostrate them self I'm sure an ambulance would be summoned. LarG 12:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)LarG

I know that in most Conservative synagogues only the Hazzan does this. I've never been in an Orthodox synagogue where there weren't a large number of people who did it, although my circles have been limited. It may be that this tradition is making something of a comeback. The custom certainly exists, although it appears there is a question of how widespread it is. --Shirahadasha 14:22, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

The practice is common in Orthodox and some Conservative congragations. Most people simply bow when the word "prostrate" is being recited.

Yom Kippur War

Is the advertisement for the Yom Kippur war at the top really necessary? I think most people who search for the yom kippur war write yom kippur war, not yom kippur. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Solid Reign (talk • contribs)

It is advisible to add such link, as many people aren't aware of the holiday. I can't fully explain to to you, but there are many such articles. Michaelas10 15:21, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, it is important to that the Arab states chose that particular day because the Jews were all at the synagogue (but didn't realize that mobilization was so much quicker because they were all in one place) as well as what laws they abbrogated and which ones they didn't on that first day of defending the country. I say keep the links. Valley2city 21:34, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Christian belief

Someone removed the Christian belief section which has been there for quite some time. I thought this was wrong seeing as Jews and Christians also see this day as a day of significance. I don't think it should be removed. --76.5.10.238 19:13, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

It should have been removed because this is a Jewish article. You don't see any Jewish beliefs being posted in Christian articles. So why should Christian beliefs be posted in Jewish articles? I know that there are more Christians but give the Jews some space for atleast a few articles. The world doesn't revolve around Christianity and their beliefs. You think a Christian would care about Jewish beliefs? Hell No!

Dear unsigned editor, do not remove entire entries without first going through discussions here. Removing the entry first and then adding a discussion post is unacceptable. There is no "race"-only or "religion"-only articles. Since Judaism is the "root" of Christianity, it is conceivable that many doctrines, holy days, and religions match. Hence, it is noteworthy to have a minor blurb of the Christian beliefs. --Jbanning22 14:09, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

There is no problem of having a section on christian or islamic (or any other) beliefs in article about a Jewish topic. However we must be careful no to give undue weight to alternate view and not to invent a view where one doesn't really exist in order to create an illusion of "balance". Yom Kippur (and other mainly Jewish topics) should be (and mostly are) presented as a Jewish topic and present other views as less significant since they do not have nearly the same importance in other religions as they do in Judaism. When similar ideas exist in different religion with equal importance in both religion splitting the article into two (or three) different article is often a good solution. Jon513 10:44, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

The line "Most Christians do not regularly observe this holiday as they do not consider this day as part of the New Covenant" is not only reduntant, but quite comical. To the best of my knowledge the vast majority of Christians do not observe it at all. The word 'regularly' should be removed (IMHO) but I really think this whole sentence should be changed to simply focus on the minority who do see some significance in the day, or who commemorate it in some way. Commontater 08:32, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

done. In the future, feel free to change it yourself. Jon513 17:11, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not that "Most Christians do not observe....", as though they somehow spitefully 'refuse' to observe it. It's rather that they are simply unaware of the festival or its significance, because it is just not a part of their religion. Obviously the founder of their religion probably observed it himself, but the only solemn 'fast' that (some) Christians observe is 'Lent' - the 40 days in the run-up to Easter / Pesach. I also found the "This is a Jewish article" comment rather an odd thing to say in an encyclopedia, and the "You think a Christian would care about Jewish beliefs? Hell No!" comment downright insulting. I am not Jewish myself, but I clicked on the article to find out why my work colleague and friend (an otherwise very secular Jew) was making a point of taking his wife and children to the Synagogue tomorrow when he never otherwise even mentions his faith. Most Christians obviously do not observe Jewish festivals (they have their own) but they conversely have no reason to disrespect them either. 160.84.253.241 08:24, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Haftorah Yona

I didn't see any reference to the Haftorah in the afternoon (Mincha) of Yom Kippur, which is the entire book of Yonah. This is an integral part of the Orthodox (at least) service, and there is a lot of discussion about the relationship between Yonah, repentance and Yom Kippur. I'm not suggesting an article about the book of Yonah here, but to show the close connection to Yom Kippur there should be a link to an external article about it. Commontater 08:55, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

done. Jon513 17:08, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Recent edits

Hi! I reverted a substantial rewrite by User:David Adam Lewis because the rewrite, although adding a lot of useful material, also deleted a substantial amount of existing sourced material without discussion. I would urge users not to undertake complete rewrites of long-standing articles without discussion and collaboration with other users. Best, --Shirahadasha 00:36, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Tallit: Actually worn for two evening services

The article says: "They also wear a tallis, the only evening service of the year in which this is done."

The most common practice in orthodox synagogues is to wear the tallit right through the day of Yom Kippur, and only remove it after the evening service following the end of Yom Kippur. The tallit is thus worn for two evening services. Jfrankmortimer 03:43, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi! The "evening" service refers to maariv, not just any service that happens to occur in the "evening" as determined from a secular point of view. Perhaps this could be clarified. Best, --Shirahadasha 08:44, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

To clarify what I wrote, there are two Maariv services during which a tallit is worn; Tishri 10 (Kol Nidre + Maariv of Yom Kippur) and Tishri 11 (weekday Maariv).

Also I suggest the more conventional transliteration "tallit" and maybe link the word to the page on the subject "Tallit". Jfrankmortimer 21:07, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

In my circles it's customary for men to remove their talit between the end of neillah and the beginning of maariv. I suppose some forget and keep it on, still, their wearing a talit in this way isn't customarily regarded as having religious significance, while the talit worn for kol nidre is a religious custom that is regarded as having religious meaning and significance. Perhaps the article could clarify that this is done as a religous custom. Best, --Shirahadasha 21:54, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I was told that one should follow Yom Kippur with a mitzvah. Therefore maariv is recited immediately without even stopping to take the tallit off, fold it, etc. Rebele | Talk ^{The only way to win the game is to not play the game.} 08:55, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Observances among secular Jews

Would there be any objection to changing this title to "practices of secular Jews" and moving it to a level-2 subheader given that most of the material added describes practices that secular Jews do on Yom Kippur, but provides no evidence that these practices are observances of the holiday as distinct from things people do on their days off. For example, the Christmas article might report that many Jews go to movies on Christmas (because most other businesses are closed), but would it be accurate or neutral for that article to report as unattributed fact that these practices represent "observances" of Christmas among Jews? Same here. I don't think the things people do because they are bored or inconvenienced by other people's holidays represent "observances" of those holidays. --Shirahadasha 18:08, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

It might be a matter of terminology. When many people do a particular activity on a particular day, it's sort of a tradition for them.--Nitsansh 22:29, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Changes to, comments on Article - Oct 9, 2007

I've made the following changes:

• tightened up the language in the lead paragraph and moved some things that seem to be details further down in the article. As I read the recent reversion of User:David Adam Lewis, there is a consensus that this article is first and foremost about "What is Yom Kippur" and only secondarily about the sources that have help defined the meaning.

• I've added a stub "Religious themes" section where we can explore the philosophical, ethical, psychological and theological themes associated with Yom Kippur. It seems a little strange that this section is missing considering the tremendous importance of this holiday to the moral and spiritual development of Jews.

• I've consolidated and retitled some sections so that additional material on biblical and talmudic sources for the holiday will have a natural home in this article.
  • The biblical section is missing any discussion of prominent literary themes. For example there appears to be a literary tradition of the child offered up and the child driven away that echoes the two goats of the Yom Kippur (Issac/Ishmael, Esau/Jacob, Benjamin/Joseph, ...) - if anyone has source material at hand discussing that theme I'd love to see it added...
  • There is some material I labeled as Midrashic - however the material is unsourced and I don't know whether these can actually be found in Midrashic literature or if they actually come from either Targum or Medieval commentaries. If anyone knows, please fill this in and change the section title if necessary.
  • At the moment the mishnaic/talmud section only contains a description of the Temple Service. Are there other sources that should be included?

• Temple Service - I wonder if this should be moved to a sub-article? The article is already over 31K and this section is quite extensive and detailed.

• I added a stub section for "Halachic requirements" and moved a sentence formerly embedded in the description of the Temple service to that section. I'm OK if someone wants to merge it into the Observances section. I just wasn't comfortable with halakhic statements being made in a "by the way" manner and buried in a long complicated section covering the details of the temple service. Halakhic requirements are too important to the Jewish perspective and should be handled in a section that allows them (and their sources) to be discussed.

• I've corrected some information about Progressive Jewish Yom Kippur customs.

Egfrank 14:48, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

"Yore" Kippur

After seeing it used in an old speech by Bill Clinton, I searched Google on "Yore Kippur" and found a small number of uses from seemingly reliable sources, but I could find no explanation. Anyone? --Tysto 17:28, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

It is a non-notable typo. It is 100% completely wrong, and is not a accurate transliteration of the Hebrew. Jon513 18:10, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Yom Kippur in Islamic Tradition

This section has been revised, there was too much confusion with 10 Muharram, Ashura, Passover, Yom Kippur, that I had to clean it up and summarize it as the day is about the Judaic tradition and Muslims observing this, instead of the Sunni/Shia debate. Since the dates are lost due to calendar nonuniformity, I suggested the difference in opinions. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.248.216.105 (talk) 04:15, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

In Islamic tradition, the day of Ashura is celebrated as the 10th of Muharram according to pure lunar calender. As a result it does not coincide with Jewish celebration. This much is clearly replicated in the article. But as per Muhammad(s.a.w)'s tradition, "We are closer to Musa than you are", we follow his tradition of fasting not just 1 day, but 2 consecutive days (ie. 9,10 or 10,11 Muharram). This is an important distinction, that should be mentioned in this section. Atif.hussain (talk) 04:07, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Law in Israel

As far as I know (and I am an Israeli lawyer), Israeli law does not forbid radio or television broadcasts on Yom Kippur and there are no state-enforced restrictions for this day. I have edited accordingly. Benqish (talk) 13:33, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Non-observance

Both the lead and the section "Secular Jews" imply, without reference, that most secular Jews fast on Yom Kippur. A source should be provided (if, in fact, this is true. Otherwise it should be changed) Jd2718 (talk) 03:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

The lead most definitely does not imply that, as nowhere in the lead is the word "secular" even there. As for the later section titled as such, that does not a source. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 04:42, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

The lead uses the word traditionally in a very open way. I think most would read that to mean most Jews, or all Jews. As to the latter section, I think you left something out of this: As for the later section titled as such, that does not a source. Could you clarify? Jd2718 (talk) 05:02, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I still think there is nothing wrong with the opening section. I think that you really need to specify that you are talking about "secular" Jews if you mean that. How many articles on Jewish practices and beliefs have to go out of their way to say "but not the secular ones"? Or to secular members of any other religious affiliated group? Oh, for the latter section, I meant to say "that does need a source." I blame it on low blood sugar from fasting... --OuroborosCobra (talk) 05:09, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Ok, we'll see what others chime in with in regard to the lead. For the latter section, I may try a weasely reword, waiting for a source, if one comes. I am doubtful one will. (but better slightly weasely than a citation needed tag...) Jd2718 (talk) 05:17, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

"equivalent" Christian holy day

Somebody remarked that the "equivalent" Christian day would be Lent because that is when (some) Christians fast. But isn't the fundamental idea the atonement, not the fast? You could then say that the Catholic equivalent is the rite of confession, and there is no precise Protestant equivalent. (I am a gentile and I may be interpreting this wrong) CharlesTheBold (talk) 03:21, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I would generally say that the Catholic confession is far more like Yom Kippur than Lent, but then I'm not a gentile so my knowledge on Lent is fairly limited. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 04:21, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

A statement of this sort needs a source and needs to be attributed to a particular scholar. Jon513 (talk) 08:19, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

There is an interesting article here from L'Osservatore Romano which discusses the question. Knowing that Pessah is already the equivalent to Easter, I would presume that Corpus Christi or the feast of the Cross might constitute a sort of equivalent to Yom Kippur. [6] ADM (talk) 21:24, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Wouldn't the confessional or even the Crucifixion itself be the logical equivalent in Christianity? — Rickyrab | Talk 05:52, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Contemporary scholarship

Reasons for moving the "Contemporary scholarship" section down: The Yom Kippur#Contemporary scholarship section is only a modern-day critique and theoretical dichotomy of the holiday. It is not the classical historical, theological or Biblical source of the holiday that was observed by Jews as a result of commandments in the Hebrew Bible. Had the Jews thought that the veracity of the various secular Bible critics and most Biblical scholars at universities had any truth to them, then obviously there would not have been a Yom Kippur observed as it's known for the last 2000 years and prior to that as it was observed and practiced in the era of the two Temples. Therefore it is logical that the actual observances of the holiday and the many classical primary sources that it is derived from and its comprehensive liturgy and commentaries need to be described and explained first and foremost from as many of the primary Judaic sources (this is a Jewish holiday we are talking about!), and only much later on in the article can there be a section of what a group of latter-day secular academics decided to say thousands of years later based of their points of view. IZAK (talk) 09:06, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Ok, and this should be done for holidays in other religions as well: traditional observances and history should go first from the religion's followers' pov, and then the secular scholars' pov. As for the veracity of secular scholars and their effect on Yom Kippur's observance, look at how nontraditional Jews observe the holiday (modified fasts, bicycling, other activities that recognize Yom Kippur but which traditionalists frown upon or ban). — Rickyrab | Talk 05:49, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Significance of Shofar

A persons slavery or servitude normally ends on the last day of the year. However, the period between Rosh HaShana and Yom Kippur is a mandatory transition time where the person need not work, but the master must still provide for their needs. The person is not free to go until the sounding of the shofar which "proclaims liberty throughout the land." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rebele (talk • contribs) 09:41, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

remove date section

I have removed the section "date" as it was redundent with the infobox. The average reader would know that a date on the hebrew calander will change every year on the english calander and does not need to be stated. The holiday infobox display the gregorian date and will automaticly change every year. I think that is enough. Jon513 11:36, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

When is Yom Kippur?

It's amazing to me that this article doesn't answer this obvious question in terms comprehensible to English-language readers. I don't know the answer, but surely someone does, and can add it.Timothy Usher 10:53, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

In the infobox: "Gregorian Date (2006) October 2". -- Jeandré, 2006-08-04t18:47z

Added comment on this: I'm still wondering (When is Yom Kippur?). Is it July 10? Why not explain clearly if it must be calculated? Non-Jews like me have no idea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Banjobum (talk • contribs) 14:18, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Theological significance

I've had to revert edits that remove content from this section. Even for Christians, this is a different issue to observance, and is completely independent of it. The material from this section was copied to Christian observances of Jewish holidays, but it properly belongs here. Yom Kippur has theological significance for Christians who will never observe the holiday. StAnselm (talk) 22:18, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

• Your argument is absurd. Yom Kippur is 100% a Jewish Holiday. What Christians think of it is insignificant to what it is in and of itself. Once any Christian thinkers or groups latch onto it or onto any other Jewish holiday they have thus turned it into another (Christian) day that has nothing to do with Jewish holidays. There are Hebrew Christian and Jews for Jesus groups that do observe this day because of their claim to keep up "Jewish" holidays, but in effect because the Hebrew Christians and Jews for Jesus are just Christians they thus "convert" their Christian observance and theories of Yom Kippur into their Christian version of a Christian holiday as well in spite of what you claim from your own theological perspective. IZAK (talk) 07:08, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

No, the Epistle to the Hebrews has a Christian interpretation of it, but one could hardly call its perspective "insignificant". It doesn't turn it into a "Christian day" - rather, it claims to explain what Yom Kippur "really" means. You may disagree with its assessment, of course, but it's still important. This has nothing to do with Christian observance of it. StAnselm (talk) 07:19, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

StAnselm, not quite sure what your problem with the facts I have outlined is. Try simple Googling and you'll find this: Why do messianic Jews celebrate Yom Kippur?: "Didn't Jesus Christ fulfill the atonement with His Death, burial and ressurrection?..."; See these: Jews for Jesus: Yom Kippur, from their own website as they proudly declare: "...Yom Kippur can be somewhat of a conundrum to Jewish believers in Y'shua. Do we fast and confess our sins like the rest of the Jewish community or do we rejoice in the knowledge that we're forgiven in Messiah? Many Jewish believers view Yom Kippur as a time for identification with our Jewish people, introspection for ourselves and intercession for loved ones, knowing all the while that Jesus is the One that makes us at one with God..."; Or Jews for Jesus Issues: A Messianic Jewish perspective: A Yom Kippur Prayer (by Amy Rabinovitz): "Synagogue is hardly the scene to begin a story about believing in Jesus, but it was there my questions started...From that point on, the entire Bible opened up. God's own Word described the One who would come, die, bear the sins of humanity, and be rejected. I knew that I had found the answer to my prayers in Jesus. I had met the God of Israel. It was through this Yom Kippur prayer that I came to see myself before God. There is no explaining away of sin. But there is a sin-bearer and "…that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses." (Acts 13:38, 39.)"; Or this: Yom Kippur: A Practical Guide for Believers in Messiah (Emmanuel Messianic Jewish Congregation): "For believers in Yeshua, both Jewish and non-Jewish, the observance of Yom Kippur can hold special significance. The repentance started at Rosh HaShanah comes to a culmination with atonement ten days later. As with the traditional Jewish community, those ten days (Yomim Nora'im) can take on spiritual meaning as we meditate on the meaning of the high holy days. Although there are not many customs directly relating to the ten days, the message could be applied to a believer's daily meditation at that time. Traditional readings from the book of Jonah, Hosea 14 and other pertinent passages can enhance one's appreciation of the season...Blessed be the Lord God, who has secured our salvation in Yeshua the Messiah! That is what Yom Kippur is all about for those who call on his name. The materials here were taken directly from God's Appointed Times with the publisher's permission..."; Or Teaching >> Messianic Teaching >> Holy Days >> Yom Kippur (Congregation Shma Yisrael): "...What’s with the goats? (See Leviticus 16)...The wilderness goat died, leaving the iniquities in the wilderness. Yeshua took our iniquities to Sheol. (See Revelation 1:18.)...etc"; Or as observed by "The Living Church of God": The Day of Atonement--Its Christian Significance (by COGwriter Bob Thiel PhD: "What Does COGwriter Mean? COGwriter is an abbreviation for Church of God (COG) writer. The term Church of God is used here to include those Sabbatarian (sabbath-keeping) churches that are faithful to apostolic Christianity (most generally, but not exclusively, those who came out of the pre-1986 Worldwide Church of God, and hold similar beliefs)."): "The Christian Day of Atonement is based on the English translation of the Jewish Holy day Yom Kippur. In the original Hebrew, the Bible calls the day Yom Hakippurim (Hebrew for "Day of the Atonements"). The day is commemorated with a 25-hour fast by Jews, but normally a 24 hour fast by Christians who observe it. While not observed by the mainstream of professing Christianity, the Christian groups (mostly those with origins in the old Worldwide Church of God) that do observe it usually refer to it as the Day of Atonement..." The latter article is a good example of Christian theories and observances of Yom Kippur. All the material I have cited here are worthy of a stand-alone article on the subject which will come next, what will you say then? IZAK (talk) 07:56, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

What will I say? I guess I'm going to let the issue of Christian observance go. But the issue of Christian (or rather, New Testament) interpretation is another matter entirely. I seem to be repeating myself here, but what you don't seem to understand is that the paragraph about the Epistle to the Hebrews has nothing to do with Christian observance. You've responded with a whole lot of quotes about why Messianic Jews celebrate Yom Kippur. The Hebrews quote has nothing to do with that - in fact, for many Christians it's a reason not to observe Yom Kippur. StAnselm (talk) 11:59, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

This debate has been had previously. The fact that Jesus celebrated Yom Kippur should not surprise us, and given that the vast majority of Christians do not celebrate Yom Kippur and attach no specific meaning it, I am pretty sure that Yom Kippur carries little significance in Christianity. The fact that there are some who do is simply an exception that proves the rule. I would not be able to support an entire section on Yom Kippur in Christianity, although I would be willing to support a single short paragraph in the context of other similar information. JFW | T@lk 08:35, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Poll: Yom Kippur and Christianity

Yom Kippur is Jewish holiday. This article should reflect that. Serious Christian content in this article belongs in Christian observances of Jewish holidays#Day of Atonement or in its own article Christian observances of Yom Kippur

• Agree. IZAK (talk) 08:09, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
• Agree. JFW | T@lk 08:29, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
• Agree. And, I might add, I would be very interested to read such an article. I assume, though not mentioned, that the nom does not have a problem with a see also directing to that page -- pls let us know, and if you do, what the reason is.--Epeefleche (talk) 08:31, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
• Absolutely! A "see also" is reasonable. Debresser (talk) 12:00, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
• Agree, add to "See also". Chesdovi (talk) 12:32, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
• Strong Agree Even a "see also" is pushing things, but certainly no more than that. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 13:22, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
• Agree if other religions celebrate a holiday similar to that, then it should have its own article, but Yom Kippur is a Jewish holiday. Yossiea ^(talk) 14:04, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
• Agree selbstverständlich -- Avi (talk) 23:54, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
• Agree completely. Yoninah (talk) 23:05, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

RfC: section on theological significance

A section on the theological significance and interpretation of Yom Kippur has been deleted. Should it be in the article, and, if so, can it contain reference to the significance described in the New Testament? StAnselm (talk) 21:34, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

• No. This article is about the Jewish holiday, not Christian theology. The proper place for that material is at Christian observances of Jewish holidays#Day of Atonement. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:14, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
• No. Per the discussion (and indications of No by seven other editors) here. My comment refers to both 3 and 5 on Radagst's below list.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:29, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

And a related question - what about material from The Impact of Yom Kippur on Early Christianity or similar books? StAnselm (talk) 22:20, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

• That may be a good starting point for an article on that subject, though I can't tell for sure -- being unfamiliar with the author.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:29, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
• No, per Jayjg and Epeefleche. IZAK (talk) 22:47, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

• There seems to be a misunderstanding here. Consequently, most comments above are responding to a different question than the one StAnselm raised. As I see it, there are 5 relevant topics potentially being discussed here:

1. The origin and description of the Day of Atonement in the Hebrew Bible
2. Discussions of the theological significance of the Day of Atonement by Jewish scholars and rabbis
3. Discussions of the theological significance of the Day of Atonement in the New Testament and by Christian scholars
4. Observance of Yom Kippur in the Jewish community, both historically and at the present time
5. Observance of Yom Kippur by a minority of Christians

It has already been decided that #5 is covered in Christian observances of Jewish holidays. However, StAnselm is discussing #3, which is completely unrelated to #5 (all Christians view the Day of Atonement as having deep theological significance, but few observe the festival). The topic #3 could go into a third article (Christian interpretation of the Day of Atonement or similar), but there is a case to keep #3 together with the discussion of Jewish scholarship of the Hebrew text, to which it is obviously closely related. -- Radagast3 (talk) 02:59, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

• No Both Christian observance and Christian theological significance of Jewish holidays are best discussed in their own articles, separate from the Jewish one. -- Avi (talk) 23:56, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

That may be the best solution, in which case #3 and #5 should be in different articles. -- Radagast3 (talk) 11:09, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

• No. Yom Kippur is a Jewish holiday, period. All Christian interpretations and Christian observances belong in their own articles. Yoninah (talk) 23:11, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

• Strong no. Why are you always trying to insert Christian material into articles about Jewish things, StAnselm? I'm trying to AGF, but this is quite the pattern you have. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 23:41, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

i)Yes, please assume good faith.

ii)What other instances did you have in mind?

iii)Please bear in mind that the Tanakh is part of the Christian Bible, so everything in it, from the Day of Atonement to the story of Joseph, will have a Christian interpretation. In virtually all cases, at least some Christian interpretations will be notable enough to be included in the relevant article. StAnselm (talk) 00:01, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

They'll be notable enough to be included in articles about Christian theology, not articles about Jewish holidays. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:03, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

The root of the debate, I think, is that the present article is about an important Jewish holiday (#4 on my list), but it is also about an aspect of the Tanakh (#1 on my list) which has a lengthy tradition of both Jewish and Christian interpretation, since the Tanakh is sacred to both Jews and Christians. Perhaps the best solution is to create an article called Day of Atonement (Christian interpretation) or similar. -- Radagast3 (talk) 07:29, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Radagast: You miss the key points here, as you come up with your points by number. Judaism and Christianity are different, opposite and above all conflicting religions. Logically and historically, both cannot be true in the ultimate sense. Judaism rejects Jesus as a false messiah hence rejecting Christianity's main premises, while Christianity regards Judaism as a defunct/devil's religion essentially. The way they deal with the Bible is not the same. Wikipedia articles should respect that basic difference of fact and logic. To ignore the differences and try and dig up "similarities" will only create mass confusion and a fake theology that does not exist in violation of WP:NEO; WP:NOR and WP:SYNTH. IZAK (talk) 06:39, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

The real need, of course, is to explain the differences. It makes sense that on any particular topic, the relevant article has the Christian interpretation, the Jewish interpretation, the Muslim interpretation, the Bahá'í interpretation, and so on. That is why we have, for example, Abraham#In Christianity and Abraham#In Islam. I have no idea why we don't have Abraham#In Judaism. StAnselm (talk) 07:33, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Judaism and Christianity are certainly different religions, but they do share the Tanakh (and Christian theologians often read with respect what Jewish commentators have written about the Tanakh). Consequently, Yom Kippur#In the Torah and Yom Kippur#Contemporary scholarship are relevant to Christians, but Yom Kippur#Observances is not. However, I agree that Christian interpretations generally diverge from Jewish ones, which is why I was suggesting Day of Atonement (Christian interpretation) as a new article. -- Radagast3 (talk) 08:33, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Dear StAnselm and Radagast: The Abraham article, like many similar ones, has been far too widely universalized. But on average you will notice that it is articles key to Judaism that get to be peppered with everyone's view on them, while the huge amount of other religions' articles are left alone most of the time. For example, there are no articles purely about Judaism's view of all the Apostles or purely about Judaism's view of the Koran because Judaic editors are too respectful and smart to poke their noses into every last remotely related article and insert Judaism's views on every last topic within another religions' domains on Wikipedia since such editorial behavior would amount to hijacking, distorting and mangling articles so that the original subject matter in and of itself in its original context, as in the case of Abraham the first Jew/Hebrew who lands up having his Wikipedia article adorned with all sorts of what would be called heresy and lies according to Judaism. So often-times it's just a case of "when the cat's away, the mice will play" and instead of editors seeking expert Judaic input for topics that originate and are central to Judaism first and foremost, they pump so much other stuff into it that Abraham wouldn't recognize himself on Wikipedia because he was a Hebrew/Jew and not a Christian nor a Muslim. You are pointing out problems and run the risk of worsening the situation in this regard while not offering any solutions or doing the logical thing by asking for Judaic content for Judaic articles from Judaicly knowledgeable and experienced editors. In this case it is easy to invoke all manner of WP:LAWYERing to violate WP:NEO; WP:NOR and WP:SYNTH, while avoiding the truth and the facts about Judaism and the centrality of only the Tanakh and related Judaic literature to it. IZAK (talk) 07:45, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

I really don't know what to say. I've suggested taking material on Christian interpretation out of this article, and placing it into Day of Atonement (Christian interpretation) with a link. You're obviously unhappy with that option, so I withdraw my suggestion. I'm at a loss as to what to suggest instead. -- Radagast3 (talk) 10:07, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Archive

I would suggest, unless there is consensus disagreement, that all strings where the most recent comments are older than 30 days on this page be archived.--Epeefleche (talk) 01:52, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

• Not called for. Talk pages are not archived based on any length of time but only by when the amount of talk gets too long on the page, and in some cases that may take years. Does the present discussion make you nervous? IZAK (talk) 07:55, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Origin of Yom Kippur

I was watching some show on PBS talking about jews in spain in medievil times practicing yom kippur and it said they been practicing it for 1,500 years but by then christianity didnt exist, unless you wanna call horus the original jesus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ChesterTheWorm (talk • contribs) 17:23, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Day preceeding Yom Kippur

Just to anticipate any questions from my edit, in which I moved a paragraph to the beginning of the section, a note of explanation may be helpful --- The Jewish "day" begins at sunset (not at midnight). The phrase "erev (any holy day)", in particular, "erev Yom Kippur" typically refers to the "afternoon before the start of the holy day", that is, the "afternoon before the sunset beginning the holy day". The phrase is idiomatic, because, if translated literrally from the Hebrew, seems to mean "evening (any holy day)" So the phrase in this section "erev Yom Kippur" quite correctly describes the events of the afternoon of the 9th day of the month, and the content therefore should be placed before the prayers said during Yom Kippur itself, which starts at sunset and goes to the following sunset. DonToto (talk) 05:30, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Adding citations

I added a citation and reworded an unsupported statement that synagogue attendance doubles or triples in Yom Kippur. Anyone who attends synagogues knows this is true, but I found a book that says that for many secular Jews Yom Kippur is the only time they will attend synagogue. Accordingly, I changed the statement to say that this causes synagogue attendance to soar (but without stating by how much).

I'm not sure if this sort of thing belongs on Talk pages, please let me know if I need to sign/explain a small contribution like this one.

Gilad.maayan (talk) 10:03, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

What is prohibited on Yom Kippur

I changed the "six prohibitions" on Yom Kippur to five, the correct number. The last one, "dealing with money", is something that is forbidden on any Jewish holiday and not specific to Yom Kippur. It also is not listed in the Mishna which is referenced as a source for this list. As an additional note, it is incorrect to reference the Mishna as a source for hallachic prohibitions or any Jewish law. It is a well-known rule that "you do not learn hallacha from the mishna". It would be more correct to reference the Talmud, which provides specific hallachic directios and often overrules the p'shat of the Mishna. Most commonly hallachic laws are referenced from modern-day hallachic books, in this case the most appropriate reference is the Hebrew-language book "Shmirat Shabbat Ke'Hilchata", which is the most accepted source of hallacha about Shabbat and conduct during the holidays. Gilad.maayan (talk) 10:19, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Translation mistake

I can't edit because the page is protected, but "Tsom Mo'iil" is translated incorrectly as "an efficient fast". The actual literal translation is "a beneficial fast", as in "have a beneficial fast." 46.116.184.236 (talk) 12:30, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Thirteen Attributes of Mercy

The author does not mention this very important prayer from the Old Testament which is recited eight times during the course of the final Closing Prayer on Yom Kippur. Its purpose is to invoke God's mercy. At the very first Yom Kippur of the Israelites history when they attained atonement for the sin of the Golden Calf forgiveness was no more than notional. God refused to lead the Jewish People to the Land of Israel and instead delegated the task to an angel. God's manifestation was to be at arm's length. This displeased Moses considerably and he struggled to do better on behalf of his people. In search for the right formula with which to approach God he beseeched Him that as reward for his personal merits God let him know 'His ways'. Eventuall God relented to his request and passed before Moses as a vision of 'the back of God'. God explained to Moses that no mortal man could see the 'front of Him' and live. There are great Kabalistic meanings in this exchange but the simple meaning is that man's capacity to understand is limited to the finite. God being infinite cannot be understood on any more than a finite level by man.

When God 'passed by' Moses he taught him an order of prayer that contains thirteen attributes of Mercy. Moses was assured that whenever the Israelites were in need of Godly mercy they would be be able to invoke it through 'doing this formula'. The commentaries explain that mere recital of the formuala is not sufficient, rather it must be 'done'. When man invokes the spirituality inherent in those words and inspires himself to emulate God's divine mercy then he elevates himself to the point that he himself becomes worthy of mercy. This is the well known 'mida ke'neged mida' concept; that God does unto us as we do unto others.

This prayer forms the repeated theme of the last Closing prayer of Yom Kippur with the sins fully confessed earlier on in the day the repenter throws himself before God's mercy in his aim to receive a full and final atonement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.254.146.36 (talk) 23:30, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Confession on Yom Kippur

The author does not provide a treatement of this most essential component of the Yom Kippur prayer service the 'viduy' - confession.

There are two confessions recited a short one and a long one. Both are recited in alphatetical order. I would begin with explaining the similarities and differences between confession as practised by some Christians to the Yom Kippur confession. Main differences are that the confession follows the Jewish alphabet and is recited in unison by all participants. The confession is to G-d not a member of the clergy. The prayer book only covers the spectrum of sins typically committed in the course of the year. It does not cover the repentance process which must include remorse, a commitment to stop undertaking the sin and a commitmennt not to return to it at a later time. Nor does it cover the full spectrum of sins. It is up to the individual repentant to complete the process by adding the other neccessary components of repentance. The repenting process is covered more fully by Medieval scholars Maimonidies and Rabbenu Jona.

A fuller treatment of this essential aspect of the Yom Kippur service should also explore the authorship of this part of the service, the sins that are enumerated in each of these two confessions and the number of times these prayers are repeated during the course of the service.

It could then go on to elaborate with regards which sins are forgiven on Yom Kippur and which are not but are atoned by the passing away of sinner.It should then enumerate sins which even passing on does not atone for e.g. desecration of G-d's name, wrongs committed to another person which have not been made good. It could also add the various groups of people who are considered to be 'unable to repent' e.g. 'scoffers'. See Maimonidies (Laws of Repentance).

It could then explore the very central question of repentance which is, how does the hedonistic sinner go from materialistic physical being to elevated spiritual and repentant being in the course of what is quite a short period. How can such fundamental change to the psyche be affected and why would the sinner feel motivated to undertake this process. Love of G-d? Fear of G-d? An awakening to the fundamental truth of his tenuous existence in this world? Dormant but unfulfilled inner spirituality? There is much written on this subject by Jewish theoligans and philosephers.

The subject of repenance is central to Yom Kippur and its source is in the Old Testament which enjoins the people of Israel to purify themselves in front of G-d on this day. The paucity of treatment of it in the article is a fundamental ommission. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.120.246.2 (talk) 20:55, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

I replaced the Repentance section (which was basically a repeat of Repentance in Judaism) with a new section, Confession. Citations are forthcoming. However, a more in-depth treatment of this subject should go on the Repentance in Judaism page, not here. Yoninah (talk) 08:53, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Yom Kippur the holiest day of the year? Even compared to Shabbos?

The article says it is the holiest day of the Jewish year. As a single day of the year, I can understand that Yom Kippur is the holiest, but is it holier than Shabbos? If it is then what is the source for this? Shabbos has more aliyos than Yom Kippur which might indicate more importance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Benalt613 (talk • contribs) 17:54, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, even compared to Shabbat. Number of aliyot is irrelevant. The verse says שבת שבתון. We fast even if Yom Kippur falls on Shabbat. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 20:27, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

You are both correct. There are primary sources to support both of your positions. This is one of the reaons wikipedia tries to rely on secondary sources. --Bachrach44 (talk) 20:44, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

What are the secondary sources that indicate one way or another that Shabbos is or is not holier than Yom Kippur? - thanks. Benalt613 (talk) 14:33, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Interesting to note that the other festivals are also called Shabbat Shabboson in Vayikra 23. Rashi asks why the moados are connected to Shabbos and answers that if one transgresses them it is like he transgressed the Shabboses and if one keeps them it is as if he has kept the Shabboses.

Benalt613 (talk) 15:05, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Now if the moados and Yom Kippur are holier than Shabbos because they are referred to as "Shabbos Shabboson" then why compare them to Shabbos - something less than them? The only reason to compare would be if keeping the lesser one is as if you kept the greater one.

Benalt613 (talk) 17:28, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

What is the source that says that "Shabbos Shabboson" indicates Yom Kippur is holier than Shabbos? Or is this just assumed? I notice that on Shabbos we have a neshoma yeseyra which is not the case on Yom Kippur (as indicated by the lack of vesomim motzei Yom Kippur). Doesn't that indicate an automatic increase in holiness? R' Desler in Michtav Me'Eliyahu says that a neshoma yeseyra doesn't mean that there are 2 neshomas but an extra in-pouring of Kedusha. There is also a difference in the level of Kedusha on Yom Kippur during different parts of the day while on Shabbos it constantly increases. Benalt613 (talk) 14:33, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Another point is that just because Yom Kippur is doiche' Shabbos with regards to fasting doesn't mean much given that one is not mechalel Shabbos by fasting and there are other circumstances where fasting on Shabbos is allowed - e.g. after a bad dream.

Benalt613 (talk) 14:03, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Another point to mention is that the penalty for intentionally violating Yom Kippur is Kores and for violating Shabbos it is Skila. The Mishna Brura in the introduction to the 3rd chelek (in the 3rd paragraph) lists the order of severity of punishments and out of 8 levels, Kores (divine punishment) is listed 4th whilst Skila (stoning) is 8th - i.e. the most severe. It makes sense to me that something of greater holiness will have a greater punishment and one of lesser will have a lesser one. Though perhaps you could argue on this point.

Benalt613 (talk) 17:28, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

(For what follows, understand my perspective: I am an observant Jew.) Benalt613, I see your point. Although it is an argument that only an observant Jew is likely to understand easily, you can unquestionably make a case that Shabbat is more holy than Yom Kippur, even though Shabbat occurs weekly and Yom Kippur annually.

At the same time, I think you need to keep in mind that there are different types of holiness, if you will. So, for example, only Yom Kippur has the power to annul sins, not Shabbat. At the same time, according to the Midrash, it is observance of (two) Shabbat(ot) that will bring Mashiach, not observance of Yom Kippur.

You also have to keep in mind that "holiness" and "kedushah" are not exactly the same word and do not have exactly the same meaning. In English Wikipedia, it is best to make arguments that are reasonably understandable to native English speakers, regardless of their level of religious observance. Frankly, the argument that the weekly Shabbat is more holy than Yom Kippur--a day that vastly more Jews around the world observe in some fashion--is a complex one. It's not a wrong one, just a complex one.

Let me make the following suggestion to you. If you would like to add a section to the article on Yom Kippur comparing the holiness of Yom Kippur to the holiness of Shabbat, by all means do that. Note: you can't use "Yinglish" expressions like "doiche" (or even "doche"); you have to explain things in standard English. If you do that, I will be happy to help you find a way to incorporate the concept into the first paragraph of the article as well. However, until and unless you are willing to do that, I think a good enough argument can be made that "Yom Kippur is the holiest day of the year" that I would leave the article exactly as it exists now.

Gut shabbos and gut yomtov. StevenJ81 (talk) 19:03, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't mind trying to possibly put something together. On the topic of comparison I found something entitled "Yom Kippur and Shabbat" at the end of an article located here which also brings down an interesting comparison between Yom Kippur and Shabbos with regards to atonement. If I come up with something for wikipedia I can put it here for you go over.

Chag Somayach Benalt613 (talk) 17:04, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

IZAK edits of June 2013

IZAK, on one hand I fully understand your approach here. On the other, several of the items you broke out of the article lead probably now belong farther down the article. Most of the holiday articles start off with a lead, then a bit on etymology of the name, then observances and so forth. So perhaps you would look at this and have a thought to reordering some of this along those lines. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:02, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

• Hi Steven, all material was retained and nothing was deleted, but what was most glaringly missing was the connection between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur and how Yom Kippur, as the tenth day of the month of Tishrei, is the culmination of the Ten Days of Repentance (with Rosh Hashanah being the first of Tishrei). It lacked the information, that the neither the introduction nor the body contained, that I have put in that serves as the correct "beginning" and the article proper now opens with Rosh Hashanah<-->Ten Days of Repentance<-->Yom Kippur, or one can reverse the view the other way if one desires. I tried to structure the introduction the way Yom Kippur actually occurs and unfolds in practice, and left the first main paragraph as the opener for this complex holiday that can still be expanded further. Could you please point out something more specific that's bothering you and then we could work on this together. As you see I did not touch the main body of the article although I do think it has much trivia in it, like how "sports" (i.e. Yom Kippur#Observance by athletes) intersects with Yom Kippur. May as well tell tales of how Yom Kippur was observed by Jewish sailors in submarines or as they sat on camels' backs crossing deserts, it's just drivel that does not befit such a serious topic. Like who cares where brain surgery was done or to whom really, the main thing is to describe and explain what it is in depth encyclopedicly. Thanks. IZAK (talk) 09:16, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Rosh Hashanah and "Yom Teruah"

Concerning IP edits on this subject:

I assume good faith. Still, the points you are trying to make are quite subtle, and unless someone understands the POV of certain Christians, Karaites or Samaritans regarding things like this, it's just flat-out confusing. I will add a slight edit to the section to include some facts, but if you're going to add more than this here, please discuss it first. (The article on Rosh Hashanah is a better place for it, frankly.) StevenJ81 (talk) 17:47, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Observance by athletes

Should we remove or abridge this section? -- Ypnypn (talk) 18:40, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

No. To a lot of Jews, especially in the United States and especially less-observant ones, these issues have been important and a source of great pride. StevenJ81 (talk) 19:03, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

LIST the days of the week the DATES fall on as well!

Thanks for telling us the date can you also go an obvious step further and list which DAY of the week those yom kippur dates fall on? (i would edit it myself but I vowed to stop editing because too many people undo or change my edits). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gawdsmak (talk • contribs) 18:40, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Sport - rugby

Louis Babrow - Judaism and rugby? Axxter99 (talk) 13:25, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. I've addressed it. --Dweller (talk) 14:19, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Yom Kippur Page Correction

Hello, I wanted to thank you so much for the great information about Yom Kippur. I found this page really informative and it answered many of my questions. I wanted to inform you that a piece of the information on this page is incorrect. I am a muslim and I noticed that you have put in information about the corresponding day on the Hijri calendar, I thank you for that but you have linked the wrong day and information. Yom Kippur does not coincide with the month of Muharram and the day of Ashura, rather it is the month of Dhul Hijjah and the day of Arafa which is one of our holiest days of the year. If you could please make this correction I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you very much and may God bless you for your efforts. Have a blessed day. --Vick320 (talk) 16:22, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

@Vick320: Thank you for pointing this out. I'm guessing that in the year this was written, Yom Kippur's Hebrew month (Tishrei) coincided with Muharram, not Dhul Hijjah. I'm not sure everyone who writes on subjects like Yom Kippur is familiar with how the purely lunar Islamic calendar works.

I will make a quick, short-term fix now, but can do no more as I soon leave to prepare for Yom Kippur. After that holiday, I will consider the best longer-term approach. I may omit a reference to the Islamic calendar entirely, not because it's unimportant, but because the Islamic calendar moves aganst the Hebrew calendar, so that as early as next year the connection to Arafa will not be correct. Or I may try some other approach. Watch this space late in the week; I may ask for advice. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:50, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your efforts and timely response. I do think that you are correct about the calander. Many do not understand that each event on the Hijri calendar moves approximately 11 days a year due to its lunar cycle. I admit at this moment I am a little stumped myself as to how to fix it other than to remove it completely. 2601:206:4101:50B0:24A2:579E:774E:9578 (talk) 17:00, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

I did want to thank you and I pray that God willing you will have safe and beneficial holiday. Through the greatness of God millions of Jews and Muslims will be worshipping and fasting on the same day this year while millions more Muslims are making hajj. I hope this serves as a reminder to us of the importance of focusing on our similarities rather than our differences.2601:206:4101:50B0:24A2:579E:774E:9578 (talk) 17:04, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Commences??? Does it mean "starts" or "begins" (I guess). ..???-Brain (talk) 23:34, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

@Debresser: I made a very quick change, marked here on the talk page as short-term, right before Yom Kippur my time. I said I would try to sort this out after Yom Kippur; you might have given me a chance to do that.

In fact, while date corresponded this year to Day of Arafah, I think conceptually the better correspondence is to Day of Ashura. But at that the correspondence is closer to the Sunni interpretation of the day than the Shia one. Especially given that the correspondence is conceptual, but only sometimes temporal, I'm also wondering whether to keep it here at all. But I'd like to hear from the OP, if s/he is around today. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:12, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

L @Steven Sorry, I hadn't noticed that. Not that I agree with making unsure changes to a consensus version, even with the promise of looking into it later. :) Debresser (talk) 16:10, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

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Literally IMPOSSIBLE the OT contained the phrase "Day of Atonement"

The article currently reads:

"Etymology ~ Yom means "day" in Hebrew and Kippur comes from a root that means "to atone". Yom Kippur is usually expressed in English as "Day of Atonement"." ~ "Preceding day ~ Erev Yom Kippur ( l i t. "eve [of] day [of] atonement")...."

Leviticus was written between 1440 & 1400 BC

Atonement -- AS A LABEL -- was invented around 1510 AD.--Purrhaps (talk) 23:05, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Apart from the annoying fact that this editor uses AD in this article, and not CE as accepted per Wikipedia guidelines in Judaism-related articles, the fact that the word "atonement" is first found in the English language in 1510, which is all the source states, is not relevant, because 1. that first use was not in relation to Yom Kippur. 2. what we are saying is that the meaning "atonement" was derived from the meaning "to cover", without any connection to the actual, specific word "atonement" itself. Debresser (talk) 22:15, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

Sorry about AD instead of CE. ~ NO, I'm not saying HOW atonement was derived, only WHEN.--Purrhaps (talk) 23:01, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

OK, here is HOW it happened. ~ A baby named "Atonement" was born in 1510 CE to an Englishman named Thisis Parabolic. A Jewish baby named "TO-COVER" was born 2,950 years earlier. ~ Also in 1510 CE, an Irishman named Dubious-Coincidence O'Really?, renamed To-Cover, & called her To-Atone (for her name). In 2016 CE, Jews & Goyims (Gentiles) everywhere, call her "TO-ATONE" everyday, but especially on the "Day-of-Covering" -- even though they don't know why. ~ You wrote: "the meaning "atonement" was derived from the meaning "to cover", without any connection to the actual, specific word "atonement" itself". ~ Prove this, please.--Purrhaps (talk) 18:11, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Etymology of ATONEMENT

It is irrefutable that at-one-ment was coined around 1510 CE. Therefore, atone, atoned, atoning, Day of Atonement, Christ's Atonement are not part of the original Hebrew or Greek Scriptures, or Jerome's (405 CE) Latin Vulgate = dies expiationum (Lev.23:27) / dies propitiationis (Lev.23:28), or the Greek Septuagint LXX Pentateuch (282 BCE) = hemera exilasmou (Lev.23:27,28)--Purrhaps (talk) 22:48, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

The word "atonement" was, apparently, as claimed by this not necessarily reliable source. In English. But, as you can see, in Hebrew it existed a few thousand years earlier. Latin and Greek can not be proof of the opposite. Debresser (talk) 00:04, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Not a soul on the planet read or heard the word "atonement" until 1510 C.E. How could it exist "a few thousand years earlier"? This is not logical.--Purrhaps (talk) 03:40, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Hebrew VaYikra (Leviticus) (1440-1400 BCE)

Lev.23:27 = yom hakippurim (H3725 kippur)

Lev.23:28 = yom kippurim (H3725 kippur) + kaper (H3722 kaphar)

Greek Septuagint (LXX) Pentateuch (282 BCE)

Lev.23:27 = hemera exilasmou (H3725 kippur)

Lev.23:28 = hemera exilasmou (H3725 kippur) + exilasasthai (H3722 kaphar)

Jerome’s Latin Vulgate (405 CE)

Lev.23:27 = dies expiationum (H3725 kippur)

Lev.23:28 = dies propitiationis (H3725 kippur) + propitietur (H3722 kaphar)--Purrhaps (talk) 12:33, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

You don't seem to understand my argument. Can't help you there. I still fail to see what the point of the Latin and Greek is. Debresser (talk) 14:35, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

The English word cover only dates to the late 13th or early 14th century CE, so itself is scarcely an improvement according to this line of reasoning: if the only ‘proper‘ English translation of kippur should come from the 15th century BCE, it would be in PIE or Proto-Germanic or something, so no modern reader would understand it anyway. Most abstract nouns arise from some kind of concrete metaphor, so can’t be taken too literally in the first place, and there’s rarely, if ever, an exact correspondence between unrelated languages. Regardless, Day of Atonement has been the conventional translation for a long time, which fact will tend to trump any quibbles over its aptness, even well-founded ones—which this is obviously not. (BTW the OED is generally considered a pretty reliable source, and its oldest citations for atonement are indeed from the early XVI c., from Thomas More e.g.) @Purrhaps: please sign at the end of your posts, as is the normal practice here—rather than at the beginning, which makes discussions hard to follow.—Odysseus1479 01:14, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, I recently learned that the tilds go at the end & have done so since then. Then The Vulgate & Septuagint have more weight than "cover" & "atonement. You must have meant CE not BCE. --Purrhaps (talk) 02:43, 3 September 2016 (UTC)

Erev Yom Kippur does NOT literally mean "eve [of] day [of] atonement"

The article currently reads (again & again): "Preceding day ~ Erev Yom Kippur (lit. "eve [of] day [of] atonement")". ~ It's IMPOSSIBLE that kippur LITERALLY means atonement. ~ Emotional truth = emotional editing, but not accurate scholarship.--Purrhaps (talk) 23:15, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

1. Aren't you repeating yourself here? 2. Is it really necessary to create a new paragraph every time? See WP:TALK. Debresser (talk) 00:06, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Sorry about the so-called repetion, but I am commenting on 2 different parts of the article. So, I agree with you that there is redundancy in the article. Feel free to fix. I am sorry that you don't seem to understand the significance of the word "literally", or that the OT Scriptures didn't & couldn't mean an English word that was invented around 1510 C.E. ~ Shallom--Purrhaps (talk) 03:31, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Long-standing Text = Long-standing Error

Debresser's latest edit-war reversal reads: "You should not edit war, since you are the one trying to change a long-standing text. The burden of proof is on you to show consensus." ~ Pretty funny saying something created on Dec 18, 2001 is long-standing, & that that point means wrong scholarship should not be corrected. ~ Leviticus was written between 1440 & 1400 BCE. Take care. --Purrhaps (talk) 03:46, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Yom Kippur

My use of atonement all my life, was changed this past January when I did research, counted to 3,000 & used common sense to overcome emotional attachment to an English word invented around 1510 CE. Any site like Bible Gateway or BlueLetterBible (even though peppered with "atonement") helps the reader learn about the 4 related Hebrew words. ~ BASIC meaning of Hebrew Scripture words = COVER (not 1510 CE atonement invention). ~ Gen.6:14 ~ Make ...an ark of gopher wood ... COVER (H3722) it inside & out with PITCH (H3724). ~/~ H3722 kaphar (found 102x) = to cover ~/~ H3724 kopher (17x) = bitumen, a cover, etc. ~/~ H3725 kippur (8x) = cover (from H3722) ~/~ H3727 kapporeth (27x) = (exclusively, the pure gold) lid cover {improperly translated as Mercy Seat}. ~ No one before 1510 heard of the word atonement. Modern dictionaries (secular & religious) just parrot what folks have heard since birth -- including me. My point is a (red-stained) ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM.

I have no issues if Wiki says: Yom Kipper, also known as Day of Atonement, or commonly referred to as.... BUT it’s terrible scholarship to say Kippur comes from a root that means "to atone”; or that Y.K. LITERALLY means D-of-A -- under an Etymology heading no less !!! ~ Sir Joseph's logic makes Gen.6:14 read as follows: Make an ark of gopher wood, don't COVER it, just ATONE it inside & out with ATONEMENT, not BITUMIN. ~ The ark won't float, but there will be a lot of thick SMOKE (& mirrors).

1. “Yom Kippur (OFTEN mistranslated as the Day of Atonement)”.-- see The New Oxford Annotated Bible: New RSV, 2010, 4th Edition, edited by Michael David Coogan, Marc Zvi Brettler, Carol Ann Newsom, Pheme Perkins, p.166 ~ see Google Books

2. “Yom Kippur is FREQUENTLY mistranslated as the “Day of Atonement” -- see Torah with a Twist of Humor, by Joe Bobke, p.393

3. “Therefore, the actual translation and purpose of Yom Kippur should be Day of Covering” -- see http://www.huffingtonpost.com/roger-isaacs/yom-kippur-not-for-atonem_b_3890544.html (6th para.)

4. "The root of kippur is kapar (Strong’s 3722), which means covering. Yom Kippur is the Day of Covering. Atonement is another word entirely, with different etymological roots." -- see https://landofhoneyblog.blogspot.ca/2014/10/do-we-need-still-yom-kippur --Purrhaps (talk) 19:01, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

I'll try to summarize what I learned from the sources you cited:

1) The commentators in The New Oxford Annotated Bible write "yom hakippurim (the day of purifications ...)—in later Judaism Yom Kippur (often mistranslated as the Day of Atonement) ..."

2) Joe Bobker writes in Torah with a Twist of Humor that "Yom Kippur is frequently mistranslated as the 'Day of Atonement' ..."

3) Roger Isaacs writes at the Huffington Post "the actual translation and purpose of Yom Kippur should be the Day of Covering ..."

4) Your use of Strong's numbers without citing any other source is considered original research, which is not permitted on Wikipedia. And a blog, which happens to be a dead link, is not generally accepted as a reliable source.

Again, what is your point? Yom Kippur is translated into English by millions of reliable sources as "Day of Atonement", but you think we should throw that by the wayside because you trawled the internet and found one reliable source and two fringe sources that sort of, if you squint your eyes, seem to agree with you? Please stop already. Wikipedia is not a publisher of new thinking. It publishes majority thinking. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 02:13, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

"EVERYONE" trawls the internet -- that's what it's for. A few even trawl & rely on Wikipedia :-) _-Purrhaps (talk) 10:48, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments, but Gen.6:14 trumps millions of sources commenting on Yahweh's (1440-1400 BCE) WORD: Make an ark of gopher wood, COVER it inside & out with a COVER-of-BITUMIN ~ Even if Millions say (only since 1510 CE): Make an ark of gopher wood, ATONE it inside & out with ATONEMENT -- Purrhaps (talk) 09:47, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Erm, וְכָפַרְתָּ is similar but not the same word as כִּפּוּר even if there may be an entertaining conversation to be had over whether the two words have a common root. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:00, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Further, The Bible discusses the ritual of Yom Kippur in Leviticus 16. Your proposed translation of, say, verse 34, which wraps up the topic nicely, doesn't work at all. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:04, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

I am in agreement that the ritual of Yom Kippur is in Lev.16, but not the ritual of "Atonement". No NT or OT ORIGINAL word can be legitimately translated as "atone" or "atonement" BECAUSE the word & notion didn't exist until 1510 CE. -- Purrhaps (talk) 10:25, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Further, the NT contains many quotes & references to the OT (http://www.kalvesmaki.com/LXX/NTChart.htm). The shocking fact is that there are no references that = atonement. NT Scripture tells us Jesus REMOVED our sins, not COVERED them. --Purrhaps (talk) 10:41, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

WP:PLEASEDON'TSHOUT. How would you translate Leviticus 16:34? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:06, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

I am not shouting. Today folks skim articles & only stop & read "headlines" before reading further. -- Purrhaps (talk) 11:35, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

You say no Original Research, but now want original research!!! People are funny. :-)--Purrhaps (talk) 11:47, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Purrhaps, please read WP:No original research. Your thoughts about the translation of a verse in Genesis related to Noah's Ark and about the origins of the concept of atonement are good fodder for your blog, but they have no place on Wikipedia. Please provide reliable sources that support your interpretation and tie it to Yom Kippur -- the subject of this article -- or I will start removing your comments, which violate our talk page guidelines. Thank you. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 11:22, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Of course Gen.6:14 relates to Noah's ark rather than the Ark of The Covenant, but it is extremely helpful to see the basic meaning of the 4 related Hebrew words that I've shown earlier. Why stiffle conversation? I will have to take some time (to trawl) as I must go out of town soon for laser surgery. etc. --Purrhaps (talk) 11:41, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

You seem to be trying to use this talk page, and perhaps the article, as a soapbox for a particular view of the concept of 'atonement' (or, rather, your preferred alternative). Even if your views are correct, Wikipedia is not the place to 'right great wrongs', and articles should present what is stated about the subject in reliable sources.--Jeffro77 (talk) 11:57, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Malik has already agreed that I "found one reliable source". The mediator wants us to discuss things on the TALK (not DON'T TALK IF SOME DON'T LIKE page) before he opens up a thread. -- Purrhaps (talk) 12:08, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

You are taking the other editor out of context. He actually said you "found one reliable source and two fringe sources that sort of, if you squint your eyes, seem to agree with you". He clearly doesn't think that your view represents a consensus among reliable sources generally.--Jeffro77 (talk) 12:10, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

God made us with the ability to squint our eyes to filter out distraction & focus on what is really there. -- Purrhaps (talk) 12:21, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

I don't see how an asserted unfalsifiable claim about the supposed actions of a deity has any relevance.--Jeffro77 (talk) 12:26, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

What if a million (post 1510 CE) scholars wrote the following? ~ Shakespeare meant: "Tubby, or not Tubby, fat is the question." -- Purrhaps (talk) 12:43, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

The attempted argumentum ad absurdum is irrelevant.--Jeffro77 (talk) 12:47, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

See also Straw man --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:49, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Secondary Sources

Here are some of the sources I found so far. I don't know any of them.

1. through 4. see Yom Kippur above.

5. The Cherubim: Divine Majesty in Motion - Christadelphian Vault ~ “It was dramatically set forth on the day of Atonement (of Coverings, as atonement means). ... The life of the flesh is in the blood: & I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement (Heb. kaphar — covering) for your souls; it is the blood that maketh an atonement (covering) for the soul" (Lev.17:11).” (p.31). ~ “But this wood of the Ark — figurative of human nature — was hidden from sight by a covering of gold.” (p.40).

6. http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Holidays/Fall_Holidays/Yom_Kippur/yom_kippur.html ~ Yom Kippur ~ 3. The Shacharit Service .... The Torah’s name for the Day of Atonement is Yom Ha-Kippurim, (meaning "the day of covering, canceling, pardon, reconciling” (p.9).

7. http://endtimepilgrim.org/atonement.htm ~ “For most people the Yom Kippur, a "day of covering" (for sin), or a Day of Atonement....“

8. https://books.google.ca/books?isbn=1456885782 ~ The Gospel Truth Made Simple, Just Like God Planned It, by Annesah Nasheed, 2011, p.242 ~ “In Hebrew, this concept means the day of covering, or reconciliation.”

9. https://books.google.ca/books?isbn=1575678160 by Mitch Glaser & Zhava Glaser, Moody Press, 1987 (p.79) ~ The Name: Day of Atonement: The biblical name for the Day of Atonement is Yom Hakippurim, meaning “the day of covering or concealing.”

10. http://aletheia.consultronix.com/19.html ~ “Yom Kippur literally means “Day of Covering.” “ (3rd para.).

11. http://jewishroots.net/holidays/day-of-atonement/yom-kippur.html ~ Holiday Name & Meaning: The biblical name given to this holiday is Yom Hakippurim (Lev. 23:27), meaning the day of covering or concealing. Other names for the holiday include The Day, The Day of the Fast, The Day of the Great Fast, or a Day of cleansing. Its most known translation is the Day of Atonement.Its Aramaic name is Yoma. In post Talmudic times, it has been known as Yom Hanora (Awesome Day). Yom Hanora is based on a post Talmudic Midrash on Joel 2:11. Some have also referred to this day as Yom Hadin (Judgment Day).”

12. http://minuteswithmessiah.tripod.com/minutes/kippur.html ~ “(Le 16:12-16) In what may be one of the most significant puns of the Bible, the book of Micah notwithstanding, Moses describes the duties of the High Priest on Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement). Actually, we should call it "the Day of Covering," for that shows the play on words more clearly. As shown in the passage above, the Kohen Gadol (High Priest) enters the Holy of Holies with a censer & a bowl of blood. Incense is put on the censer to make enough smoke to hide the "mercy seat." Then blood from the bowl is sprikled on that "mercy seat." But there is the pun, because what the KJV ...translates as mercy seat is a word with the same root as Kippur, kapporeth, or covering. Thus the blood of covering is put on the covering.”

13. http://www.hebroots.org/hebrootsarchive/0310/0310a.html ~ From the Book: The Seven Festivals of the Messiah by Eddie Chumney ~ Life for a Life: The biblical name for the day of Atonement is Yom HaKippurim, meaning "the day of covering, canceling, pardon, reconciling." Occasionally, it was called "the Day of the Fast" or "the Great Fast" (Leviticus [Vayikra] 23:27-31; 16:29-34).

14. Fulfilling the Feasts of Israel - Google Books ~ https://books.google.ca/books?isbn=1449786464 Velda Stearns, 2013, p.65 ~ The common Jewish name for the Day of Atonement is Yom Kippur. The Hebrew name is Yom HaKippurim, which means the “day of covering.” ....Atonement comes from the word kaphar from which the name Yom Kippur was developed. Kaphar means “appease or to cover over.”

15. http://happyhebrew.webs.com/thedayofatonement.htm ~ Messianic Overtones in Judaism ~ L. Marenstein ~ It was known also as the "days of awe", and in Hebrew, it was Yom Kippur, meaning the "day of covering". -- Purrhaps (talk) 21:24, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

I still think that this version of the article expressed perfectly what you and those sources say. Debresser (talk) 21:57, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

I've removed sources 1 through 4 because Purrhaps posted them and I replied to him about them in the section titled Yom Kippur above. I strongly encourage Purrhaps to read Wikipedia's talk page guidelines, especially the paragraph titled "Avoid repeating your own lengthy posts" in the section of the guidelines titled "Good practices for all talk pages used for collaboration". Repeated violations of the talk page guidelines may result in the suspension of your editing privileges. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 22:49, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

I was just putting the sources in one place. You guys threaten, & delete, & assume bad intentions. All my edits are done in good faith. The bias needs deodorant it's so strong. -- Purrhaps (talk) 01:29, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

General response

I've been following this for a while, even during my Wikibreak for my son's wedding. And I've got to say that the only one here with a biased agenda is User:Purrhaps. I would make the following observations in this regard:

• Regardless of whether you think a word based on כ – פ – ר ought to mean something closer to "cover" than "atonement", to a great extent the word has been used in the sense of "atonement" for, well, a long time. There are many, many (many) reliable sources to support that. So if you want to add a brief riff to the article about "cover", knock yourself out. Your "RS" may (may) be good enough to justify that. But to start overhauling the article to say that this whole thing really means "Day of Covering", and that millennia of Jewish usage is flat-out wrong, is (a) biased and (b) not supported by RS.
• Looking in more detail in Jewish writing, and in particular liturgy, about Yom Kippur, I would point out that there are three phrases that tend to be used in parallel in the liturgy:
  1. מחילת חטא – forgiveness for [unintentional] sin
  2. סליחת עון – pardoning for [careless] sin
  3. כפרת פשע – atonement for [willful] sin (Google translate gives "crime" as Modern Hebrew for פשע)

So your כפר root appears once, and in parallel to two other verbs that have a clear meaning of forgiveness, pardon and atonement. To then say that one of them doesn't "really" mean atonement in that context is absurd.

I entirely agree with Debresser that the previous version he links to suitably captures the etymology while staying focused on the meaning that is clearly the generally accepted meaning today within the Jewish world. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:49, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

• I concur with StevenJ81 and others in the thread here regarding the root and meaning of כ – פ – ר. While the root is important as a source, words in all languages diverge from their original derivations, with the nuanced definition of the new words being shaded by the source root word even if it doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as the original. To use the English language as an example, the words "discover" and "uncover" both have the word "cover" as a root, but both have well-established metaphoric meanings; it would be ludicrous to insist that the words "discover" and "uncover" could only be used to mean an action such as "take off the lid from a pot", which is essentially what Purrhaps has been arguing about "Yom Kippur" meaning "Day of Covering". Alansohn (talk) 17:01, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Note

I agree that the holiday's name could be stated correctly in English as "Day of Atonement." this is supported by numerous mainstream and prominent religious Jewish sources. I agree it is not a literal translation of the Hebrew itself.--Sm8900 (talk) 02:32, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Is the Hebrew name יום כפור or יום כיפור?

Going back and forth between the Hebrew page and the English one, I see that the English version states that the holiday's name is "יום כפור", while the Hebrew one states that the full name "יום הכיפורים" is often shortened to "יום כיפור". (I'm using Google Translate, since my Hebrew is very limited.) Does anybody know what the proper spelling really is? Does it have the yud or not? I'd be inclined to trust the Hebrew source, since presumably the people who wrote it know better. Is this an error in the English version?

Aasmith (talk) 10:07, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Technically, both are correct. One is ktiv haser and the other is ktiv male. The spelling with the extra yod is about ten times more common per Google search, as ktiv male is the standard in modern Israel. Debresser (talk) 10:54, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Right. The Torah source (Leviticus 23:26) is spelled haser (without the yud), and that's the most common spelling in things like Bibles and prayer books that use nequdot (vowel points). But Modern Hebrew—especially on-line sources, which don't tend to use vowel points very often—will spell it male (with the yud). StevenJ81 (talk) 14:27, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

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Corrected one of the "fixes". StevenJ81 (talk) 18:11, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Updating

Could you please update the dates section on the chart to the right at the start of the page by deleting the gregorian dates for 2016 and 2017 and adding the gregorian dates for 2019 and 2020? Please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:304:5D4E:5CA9:29A0:CE68:7E77:8C07 (talk) 22:36, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

We usually keep one year back, so I'd keep 2017. Debresser (talk) 17:10, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Reverted deletion of 2017. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:36, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Yom Ashura

@Debresser and Abraxamovic: This back and forth is just plain silly. As far as I can tell,

• Saying that "Yom Ashura" is the "Islamic equivalent of Yom Kippur" feels like far too strong a statement, notwithstanding what is written in the lede of the article Ashura. This is particularly true given that the article Ashura itself points out that as an important fast, it has been superseded by Ramadan.
• The portion of the background of Ashura listed in Ashura § Significance for Sunni Muslims seems to have a probable source in Yom Kippur.
  • The portion having to do with death of Husayn ibn Ali has nothing to do at all with Yom Kippur. Yom Kippur is not a day of mourning.

Putting that all together, I'm not especially convinced that there is really a need for a link here at all. But, Abraxamovic, if you are determined that a link should be there, I think the most you can really justify is ...

• [[Ashura#Significance for Sunni Muslims|Ashura]] — Islamic fast partly related to Yom Kippur

StevenJ81 (talk) 18:44, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

I explained on the editor's talkpage. See also sections must not include links that are already present in the article proper. A simple and technical reason, and that is all. Debresser (talk) 22:54, 30 August 2018 (UTC)