Talk:Yojimbo/Archive 1

Archive 1

macrons or not?

The title of this film usually appears as Yojimbo rather than Yōjimbō, so according to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles) the macrons should be removed. --DannyWilde 13:35, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

The recent book "The Emperor and the Wolf" has some interesting information on Toho's legal action against the makers of Fistful of Dollars, since it didn't credit Kurosawa and co. at all, as far as I can recall. I don't have the book anymore, but that information might be worth adding if anyone does have a copy.

"The Title is Yojimbo but when referencing the word it should be yōjimbō I believe... and that's what I'm going to change it to. Also, a proper transliteration of the title next to the Japanese seems useful... comment on my changes I'm about to make if you'd like. gren グレン ^? 00:08, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

You forgot to add that he was an Aeon in the FFX game, I added it.

Red Harvest Redux

According to this article, Kurosawa scholar David Desser "states categorically that "Yojimbo is an adaptation of Dashiell Hammett's 'Red Harvest'", as does film critic Manny Farber. There are also Kurosawa scholars who don't agree. Regardless of what the "truth" of the matter is, we have reliable sources who make the claim, and so we should report it. Describing those reliable sources as "unsubstantiated rumors" is terribly POV writing. Nandesuka 15:07, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

"A number of Kurosawa scholars and critics state" is a clear case of weasel word usage, which should be avoided in favor of attributing such statements directly to the people who make them. As for NPOV, the Salon article demonstrates that there is no consensus on the issue, so when citing it in this article the NPOV stance should be taken.
—Asatruer 16:41, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

While normally I'd agree with you, you have to compare it to the previous sentence, which was even less NPOV and much, much more weaseley. In any event, I've rewritten it thusly: "Kurosawa scholar David Desser and critic Manny Farber, among others, state categorically that Red Harvest was the inspiration for the film, while other scholars, such as Donald Richie, believe the similarities are coincidental.[1]." Nandesuka 20:30, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

The Guy With The Gun

Is his name Uno? And who is the actor who portrays him?

Tatsuya Nakadai - Arsian120 02:18, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the guys name is Unosuke, in the film they call him "Uno" for short. Yojimbo501 (talk) 20:10, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Significance

Though implied in the 'returning the favor' section (which I think probably ought to be renamed to something more sensical), the article does not explicitly discuss anywhere the significance and importance of this film. I wish I had a citation for it, but it seems to me that in general, there are many people who consider this one of the most famous, most important, most significant and/or most influential samurai films of all time. The way this articles reads right now, this could be any film at all. This isn't "Just Another Teen Movie" or whatever. When something is famous or influential or significant, we should talk about that. LordAmeth 08:23, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Different characters in Yojimbo and Sanjuro?!

I removed a sentence stating that it is not clear that the protagonists of Yojimbo and Sanjuro are the same character. This seems to be creating a non-existent problem. Given that both are scruffy, cynical ronin who call themselves 'Sanjuro' and are played by the same actor, I don't think some great mystery is intended. Cop 633 18:08, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

There's also the fact that they were made by the same director in a row and only a year apart... Hope no one lost any sleep over this. Mukake 20:09, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

There's nothing implying Sanjuro takes place during or after the Meiji Restoration (where Yojimbo takes place). In fact it appears to take place hundreds of years earlier. Also in Yojimbo he calls himself Kuwabatake Sanjuro. In Sanjuro his name is Tsubaki Sanjuro. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.89.165.90 (talk) 21:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC).

There's nothing implying it doesn't take place after Meiji, either. And as for the names ... they're pseudonyms, so of course they change! In Yojimbo, when asked his name, he looks out of the window, sees a mulberry field, and says he is 'Kuwabatake Sanjuro' ('Mulberry Field Thirtysomething'). In Sanjuro, when asked his name, he looks out of the window, sees some camellia flowers and says his name is 'Tsubaki Sanjuro' ('Camellia Thirtysomething'). If that doesn't indicate IT'S THE SAME GUY, I don't know what does! Cop 633 21:53, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

influenced by

I'd have to suggest that the influenced by movies section is probably largely original research. I mean, it's a matter of opinion to say whether or not Lucky Number Slevin took its' hero recruited by both sides from this movie. If a movie reviewer or anyone published said it, then it should be sourced. If not, it's against wikipedia policy as original research. Also: I have a little OR opinion myself, that I figure has to be backed up by somebody published somewhere. The movie Pale Rider is technically a remake of Shane, but clearly is a take off Yojimbo, except the wanderer is a priest, and is unambiguously in it for god and uninterested in money, and also, when he saves the couple he has sex with the wife? It's a take off Yojimbo in the scene progression. There's even a scene where he's let his guard down drinking in a bar that's pretty similar to Yojimbo except that it makes zero sense. 66.41.66.213 02:40, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and Titanic is actually a remake of Yojimbo except they changed absolutely everything. You're right about the OR, I have removed the latter part of the section which offered zero evidence for its claims. Cop 633 03:16, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Yojimbo or Yōjimbō?

Someone moved the page to 'Yōjimbō' on the grounds that it's essential to distinguish long and short vowels in Japanese words. I moved it back because this is only essential when one is actually speaking Japanese, and this is the English Wikipedia; policy is to use the common English title (see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (films)) and this title is usually represented in English without the accent markers. The accent markers do appear in the transliteration following the title in the main body of the article, and that is all that is needed. Cop 633 18:28, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Man with no Name

"Thus, "Sanjuro" can be viewed as the original "Man with No Name" concept, made famous in the Clint Eastwood-Sergio Leone collaborations."

I understand that A Fistful of Dollars is a shot for shot remake of Yojimbo, but regardless of Yojimbo's relationship to Red Harvest I would argue that Red Harvest has a "Man With No Name" protagonist as well. I don't think you can say that Yojimbo was the first, nor do I see the point. 99.229.72.161 15:39, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Yojimbo shot.jpg

Image:Yojimbo shot.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 20:55, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Is anybody still working on this?

Well, if so I think we need to sort this out. As one of Akira Kurosawa's most famous films I think it deserves better. I think, if we work on a number of things this can become a B article. We should:

1 Get proper citation, and links.

2 Add to the current plot section.

3 This is a no brainer. Look for misspelled language.

That is all I can think of but feel free to add other objectives. Yojimbo501 (talk) 20:27, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Yojimbo.jpg

File:Yojimbo (movie poster).jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 03:27, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Translation Error?

The article takes the translation of his name as "Mulberry bush field, 30 years old" however in the BFI translation I have seen the conversation when he looks out the window is "30 mulberry bushs" to which the person hes talking to then looks at the window and says "30? theirs more than 30 bushs!" (In the field)

83.104.138.141 (talk) 15:05, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Opinions about an update to the "Influence" section

About the following text:

in the equivalent scene in Fistful, Eastwood's pistol-wielding character survives being shot by a rifle by hiding an iron plate under his clothes to serve as a shield against bullets.

It seems to me that this is missing the point of the comparison - The real equivalent duel was the "You always say that when a man with a pistol goes up against a man with a rifle, the man with the pistol must lose. Let's find out" scene where they each start with unloaded weapons and the man who loads and fires first is the winner.

The shield was just a device to even the playing field so that the duel could take place. (Good thing that Ramone always shot for the heart and didn't just say "to heck widdit" and shoot him in the head, eh?)

Opinions? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slickriptide (talk • contribs) 22:49, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

The influence is exaggerated

I've seen people go as far to say "Fistful of Dollars is an exact copy of Yojimbo" but while they have the same basic plot, a skilled wanderer going to a town ran by two gangs, tricking both sides, and killing them all in the end they also have completely different scenes and characters than each other. Just my thoughts on the issue. 97.118.63.76 (talk) 08:39, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

They may have some scenes that are different, but ask yourself this: do any of these differences affect the story or the plot in any significant way? For the most part, the answer is no. What changes exist are aesthetic and stylistic. I won't go so far as to say that Fistful is an exact copy, but you're wrong in saying that they share only "the same basic plot" because the plots really are pretty much identical with the exception of a few very minor details.--156.34.33.61 (talk) 01:46, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Uno's influence

I was playing Tenchu: Return from Darkness a few days ago and in the first level there is a sub-boss, a cheeky young samurai with a gun. He immediately reminded me of Uno, but I'm not sure if this was a direct reference or what. I wish I could find a video on youtube (aside from the 2 hour longplay videos)... 68.221.209.104 (talk) 18:47, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Plot Summary Way Too Simplified

I'd like to suggest that anyone with the time on their hands rewrite the "Plot" section. As it is now, it simply says that he tricks each gang into fighting each other by pretending to be working for each of them, and then kills off those who are left. This doesn't even do justice to the details of the Ronin's trickery and the gangs' rivalry, let alone the part where he helps the family escape or his friendship with the old man, etc., which are just left out entirely. --156.34.33.61 (talk) 01:46, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Red Harvest

I'd like to see a citation or some authoritative source, preferably a primary source, on whether or not Red Harvest should be listed as the "source" of Yojimbo's plot. I've read Red Harvest and I've watched Yojimbo. I've read countless USENET postings, I've read some web article, and I've read some articles from various critics. I've never seen an authoritative primary source quoting Kurosawa that Red Harvest was a source for Yojimbo. I don't think the plots of the two works are that close, either. In Red Harvest, the Continental Op is a hired private investigator who arrives in the town to find that the person who hired him is now dead. The father of the dead man then hires him to find the murderer. The first third of the novel is spent on this. The second part of the novel finds the Continental Op then deciding to take apart the town for his own motives - but the town is not divided into two gangs. Every person in the town is out for themselves and every person has some sort of secret pertaining to some other person. The Op is working on revealing those secrets so that individuals take each other out. Alliances between individuals shift constantly - almost from page to page. There is a relationship with a femme fatale character. The finale part of the novel sees two more operatives from the Continental agency arrive to help the Continental Op. The Continental Op is drugged and when he awakes he finds the femme fatale dead in the bed beside him. He then works at speedily killing or having the town people kill each other before he gets the murder pinned on him. New characters are constantly arriving in the plot and then dieing in a matter of a few pages to move the plot along. That is nothing like Yojimbo. I think the whole "Red Harvest is Yojimbo" thing started with some Marxist literary analysis of Red Harvest that then became applied to Yojimbo - which analysis is fine and ok. But to say that Yojimbo is "derived" or "based" on Red Harvest is not a factual statement. Whoever

Kurosawa said the film was directly influenced by Dashiell Hammett, but didn't admit that he'd gotten any ideas from Red Harvest--you can believe what you like. It's rare for anyone making a movie out of ideas from a book (or earlier film) he doesn't have the rights to adapt to ever admit that he did that, unless the work in question is long out of copyright, which I don't think Red Harvest was at the time. Leone never admitted he'd copied Yojimbo (after trying to get the rights to remake it), and of course that's an obvious remake, that goes directly to Kurosawa's story, and lifts it more or less complete. I've read Red Harvest, and the main similarity to Yojimbo is the premise, the set-up--where he goes with the story is radically different. But yes, I think Kurosawa was a bit dishonest there, and from his POV, necessarily so. He got ideas from more than one Hammett book, and wanted to credit Hammett's influence, and show a great storyteller the proper respect--but he felt the similarities to Red Harvest were just a little too direct for him to openly admit having used it--you have to read between the lines. How likely is it that he himself would not see the similarities, being a fan of Hammett's work? I truly don't think Hammett would have minded (he was already dead, of course--died in January of 1961, the year of Yojimbo's release). So's Kurosawa now, so forget about ever getting a final answer on this one. Intended or not, there is a direct influence--Red Harvest basically kick-started the hardboiled crime fiction genre Kurosawa was consciously borrowing from to make his movie. It it had never been written, Kurosawa's film would never have been made.Xfpisher (talk) 21:36, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

The Red Harvest book is too complicated for film. This is the reason the core of the story, a man pitching two gangs to clear a city is used as a plot, if you are to make a film out of it. This is what makes people believe that some movies are based in Red Harvest. If the acknowledgement of Kurosawa or just comparing the plots of the book and the movie are factual enough might need some further discussion. Vaceituno

I've always been told that Sanjuro was a prequel to Yojimbo. — Gwalla | Talk 9 July 2005 01:26 (UTC)

While I don't know if there's any official word on which film happens first chronologically, it is definite that the character Mifune plays in the films is the same. His surname is Sanjuro in each, and he takes his given name from the plants he looks at after being asked his name. I've edited that section to reflect this. Vuffster

Since (as far as I know) it has never been stated categorically that the two films are sequel and prequel, I've changed this to 'companion piece' and put back the supporting information. I've also moved it out of the Trivia section - it's more important than 'a character in such and such had a name that was the title of this film in English or looked vaguely like him' etc. Yomangani 10:17, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Archiving old discussions

Since some of the discussions on this page are seven years old, I've set up automated archiving for old discussions. I hope this is not a problem. If anyone doesn't want to do that, please state your objection here. JoshuSasori (talk) 23:49, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

That should be okay and thanks for doing this. On a page that gets so little traffic like this one you can also just archive everything older than a year without the automation but either way is fine. MarnetteD | Talk 23:59, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

That poster is from "The Hidden Fortress", not "Yojimbo"

Is there anyone in charge here who can fix that? Hopefully there aren't two rival editors, but I guess in that case I'll have to pit you against each other, and then kill everybody, so there can be some peace in this article. But seriously, that's the wrong poster. The fact that Mifune is sleeveless, and there's a Japanese tomboy on horseback really should have clued you in.Xfpisher (talk) 21:25, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't like this poster and don't think it adds to the article, but the poster is for a triple bill of Kurosawa films, with yojimbo being the middle one, and sanjuro at the bottom. JoshuSasori (talk) 22:54, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Just noticed that. There has to be a better image available. Poster, film still, whatever. Better no image at all than the wrong one. This is one of Kurosawa's most influential films.

I think it's OK to remove it, it doesn't add anything to the article. JoshuSasori (talk) 13:22, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Perfect! The Japanese release poster. Now this article can hold its head high again, and march proudly off into the sunset, to commit more bloody acts of mayhem on scruffy evildoers. My work here is done (by somebody else, but that's nitpicking). Xfpisher (talk) 13:49, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Due to the fact that I couldn't figure out where the triple bill poster came from as it had never been in the infobox before I did a little searching and found this edit on the file page [2]. The new one was added by Jsigned for some unexplained reason. JoshuaSasori I know you already posted on the talk page for the file but I am concerned because a "Orphaned non-free revisions" image tag has been added to the file page and now we might lose both poster images. I am posting here and at the film projects talk page in the hope that someone who understands all the ins and outs of image rights can fix things. MarnetteD | Talk 14:21, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I certainly did not add that image (for one thing, I don't know how, for another I was aware of possible rights issues). I think it's exactly what the page needs, but again, better no image than the wrong one. There must be something out there that can be legally used. That poster image is EVERYWHERE online--lost count of the number of websites I found it on, when I did a search out of curiosity. I know Wiki's standards are higher than your average blog, but I find it hard to believe that Disney theatrical film posters can be used and this one can't.Xfpisher (talk) 17:24, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

As far as I can tell nobody stated that you switched the posters. Since posting at the filmproject page it turns out that everything is okay and it is the poster with the pic from The Hidden Fortress that is set to be deleted which is what we all want. So things should be okay and we are set to have the correct poster in the infobox for the foreseeable future. MarnetteD | Talk 19:40, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

I just like things to be clear, is all. Not accusing anybody of accusing me of--oh never mind. Just glad the right poster is up there now. TCM showed Yojimbo the other day, and I wanted to refresh my memory about a few things, and it was pretty jarring to see that Hidden Fortress poster there. Now I guess I better go make sure they've got the right poster for that movie. Like maybe they're using a poster from Star Wars, though that wouldn't be entirely inappropriate. (editing this in) Turns out the Hidden Fortress article has no images of any kind. Xfpisher (talk) 20:42, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

@Xfpisher: MarnetteD said that another user changed the image, a user called Jsigned. Please look at the history of the article which shows the edits made to it. JoshuSasori (talk) 22:25, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Final Fantasy

I'm surprised the reference in final fantasy 10, of the summon Yojimbo, isn't in the influence section 69.59.98.19 (talk) 08:20, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Are you sure that has something to do with this film? Wistchars (talk) 08:38, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Period?

When is the film set?? The gun in the film suggests that there were now western influences in Japan. Is is at the end of the Tokugawa shogunate because there are still daimyos and local officials who travel in palanquins. So I guess the Meiji Restoration has not begun yet?86.171.199.131 (talk) 15:05, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

There are historical details in the film, but drawing conclusions from that would be WP:SYNTH. The only way to answer the question in the article is to find a citation from Kurosawa or similar about when it was meant to be set. I didn't find any easy answers on Google. JoshuSasori (talk) 05:57, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

• The opening titles of the film say 1860 (I just watched it). 50.143.131.57 (talk) 06:37, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I confirmed this, it says "1860". Wistchars (talk) 09:53, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Citation for inspiration from Dashiell Hammet

I saw that in the article, there was a missing citation next to the claim that Yojimbo might be inspired by Dashiell Hammet's Red Harvest due to plot and setting similarities. I'm currently reading David Desser's (who is mentioned immediately after) article "Towards a Structural Analysis of the Postwar Samurai Film" and he makes that claim about Yojimbo and Red Harvest. I'm not sure how to add/edit citations, but here's a citation for that claim:

Desser, David. "Toward a Structural Analysis of the Postwar Samurai Film." Quarterly Review of Film Studies 8.1 (1983): 33. Print. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hadokendude (talk • contribs) 18:34, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Samurai Jack

I have recently started watching Samurai Jack. In the second episode Samurai Jack knocks on a door (night club) and asks for a drink. Could that be a reference to Yojimbo?

(Jonathan Peel (talk) 14:19, 13 August 2014 (UTC))

• The Samurai in Yojimbo first asks for water at a farmhouse. Then, when he enters town, he asks for food and sake from the old man who runs a sort of eatery. I'd say that's close enough a reference. --50.174.54.141 (talk) 19:37, 10 August 2015 (UTC)