Talk:Yemenite Hebrew/Archive 1

Archive 1

Jews EMIGRATED<>EXPELLED from Yemen

The Jews indeed were "semi-expelled" from Yemen. There were many riots and violence attacks against Jews because of Zionism and the Establishment of Israel, So when generally stating the situation the Jews were expelled as a result of the violence to Israel, and again, not because they only wanted to, but because they had no other choice. Many prosperous and wealthy Jews left Yemen and other Arab countries because they had no choice.Momentito 11:25, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Short and useless

I found this horribly short and useless but thats just me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Knockout27 (talk • contribs) 00:21, 22/May/06

What information would you like to see added to it? It is only a stub article.--EhavEliyahu 16:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

IPA

It would be nice to get some IPA in this article. Can anyone find a source that gives IPA? Mo-Al 05:03, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Is possible for Arabic speakers to Understand?

Is possible for Arabic speakers to Understand? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.38.211.144 (talk) 21:50, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

No. The pronunciation may sound familiar, but it is still a different language. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 08:25, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

IPA NEEDED!

For those who know what the IPA is, please bare with me.

Transcription is not the same as the IPA. Transcription only replaces one visual symbol/letter for another. The IPA is a written system that references SOUNDS. The sounds are freely available by recording and phonetic description, on the internet as well as elsewhere around the world. Phonetic information is what is needed, transcription does not provide this.

The International Phonetic Alphabet is a standard for writing down pronunciation worldwide. Yemenite Hebrew dialects are known to only a few, and even fewer who know what the IPA is all about. I hereby request that people who 1. know Yemenite Hebrew dialect/s pronunciation well and 2. know or are willing to learn (it is not hard) how the IPA works (you will need to learn how the basics of how phonetics works also - also not hard, even fun!). Such individuals should then make a chart of Yemenite Hebrew pronuncation with IPA letters next to the Hebrew letters. If you can't figure out how to make Hebrew and IPA letters/descriptions here, then you could write the names/descriptions, for example,

Aleph is a glottal stop
Beth with Dagesh is a bilabial plosive
Beth without Dagesh is a bilabial fricative

continuing through the whole list and then doing a separate list for vowels

For a person who is fluent in Yemenite Hebrew to do this would be a very rare wonderful thing!

If you can't do it but know someone who might be able to, please urge them to do it.

---

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.131.128.68 (talk) 19:30, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

It amazes me that it has been over a year since I wrote the above comment. So I can easily correct/add to my comment.

I realized that I forgot to add that the Beth/Veth is voiced. This is in symmetrical contrast to Pe/Phe which is unvoiced.

The God of Hebrew is ausome.

By the way, I appreciate the update on the Hebrew using Morag (the Hebrew book) etc. that goes into the dialect differences more thoroughly. Years ago I checked out this book, but since I am not fluent in Hebrew, I couldn't read it all. His colleage Asher Laufer did informative work on the epiglottal aspect of Mizrahi Hebrew by the way. Who did the helpful edit for us non-Hebrew speaking English speakers?

By the way here is a wish: I wish someone would make a language course for English speakers (utilizing Scottish/etc. English) to learn Sharabi? Yemenite/Biblical/Classical Hebrew using the Michel Thomas method. He was a genius in his approach to teaching languages. Perhaps this could be merged somehow with the course/idea by William Rainey Harper (late 1800's Hebrew course from the University of Chicago) that basically taught Hebrew going through the first eight books of Genesis inductively. I know I have very niche tastes but that would be GREAT! By the way, King James Version interlinear course work would be helpful too.

This is not the right name in Hebrew

Who wrote that Yemenite Hebrew is תימני עברית? Probably someone who doesn't speak Hebrew. Yemenite Hebrew is עברית תימנית or הגייה תימנית (Yemenite pronunciation). And there is no difference between Yemenite and Temani in Hebrew. מתיא (talk) 20:16, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

 Done. (You should have fixed it yourself). -- -- -- 20:50, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Biblical Hebrew

I know most academics state that Biblical Hebrew is "reconstructed", I've heard that most academics consider the Yemenite pronunciation to be the closet in terms of phonology to Biblical Hebrew anyone have any sources or links on this that would be a good thing to add to the article as well.Historylover4 (talk) 13:32, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

External Links

The Pronunciation Chart links in External Links are broken. 20:12, 10 December 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by BradGad (talk • contribs)

Fixed. Contributor613 (talk) 20:43, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

heavily influenced by Arabic

this article states "It is believed by some scholars that its phonology was heavily influenced by spoken Yemeni Arabic" whom are these scholars? I ask because the phonology if Yemenite Hebrew is pretty much identical to reconstructed Masoretic Hebrew acourding to every thing I've seen, the only exceptions being the pronunciation of Gimmel as Jimmela nd Qaf as Gaf, but this is not shared by ALL Yemenites. Also the sentance later on in the article "Hence, pronunciation of Yemenite Hebrew was not only uninfluenced by Arabic, but it influenced the pronunciation of Arabic by the Jews, despite the Jewish presence in Yemen for over a millennium." directly contradicts this article. This Article could also benifit from IPA — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.250.110.30 (talk) 09:05, 23/Nov/15

I have always wondered the same. I do not know who added that statement and I was reluctant to change anything stated by the person. I have, however, seen references by Professors Shelomo Dov Goitein and Shelomo Morag concerning some Hebrew words used in Yemen that have been influenced by the Arabic tongue spoken in Yemen, but this is by no means true for all Hebrew words, and seems to be only in rare instances. If you'd like, I can quote from their statements regarding this.Davidbena (talk) 04:03, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Standards of transliteration

I heard that Yemenite Hebrew is the standard for use in transliteration and terms like Beth (beys in Ashkenazic, beyt in Sephardic) and Sabbath (Shabbos/Shabbat) Mitzvoth (Mitzvas/Mitzvot), etc... come from Yemenite hebrew. Can anyone find any confirmation for this. I also heard that Yemenite Hebrew is the closest thing we may have to ancient spoken Hebrew Valley2city 06:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that's true. I'm pretty sure the transliteration comes from biblical Hebrew. It's true that Yemenite Hebrew resembles it, but there are differences (for example gimel/jimel). Mo-Al 06:07, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

As Mo-Al has stated Yemenite Hebrew is not considered "the" standard for transliteration. For the most part there is no exact standard for transliteration. There are some more common methods used for certain groups and individuals, but calling them standard isn't really a case. There are about three dialects that have elements of some periods of Ancient, Mishnaic, etc. Hebrew. That would be Iraqi Jews, Persian Jews, Yemenite Jews, and Samaritan. All languages evolve and Hebrew is no different. We can only assume that certain communities are close because we don't have any recordings of what Hebrew sounded like several thousand years ago. Also, there are some Yemenites who don't pronounce the Gimel as Jimel, or the Qoof as Goof.--EhavEliyahu 21:48, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

There seem to be several schemes for transliteration: British Sephardic pronunciation was used for a large number of books originally translated in England, and published by Soncino Press. These transliterations are notable for their use of things like the th sound. More recently, publishers have been using either modern Israeli transliteration (such as Conservative Movement and the Reform Movement), or Ashkenazi pronunciation (Orthodox publishers like ArtScroll).216.47.152.212 20:55, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

The old British convention of using "th" for tav rafe was partly influenced by the system in Christian Bibles (originally derived from the use of θ in the Septuagint). It was kept in the interests of neutrality, so that everyone would know what letter was meant, and pronounce it as they liked (Sephardim as t or d, Ashkenazim as s, Iraqis and Yemenites as th): it does not reflect any actual British use of a "th" pronunciation. You will find this convention in old scholarly works, such as Zimmels, Buchler, Louis Jacobs etc., but it is now considered very old-fashioned and I do not know of any living author who uses it. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 12:42, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I like to see one very detailed chart of the different Yemenite Hebrew pronuncations including: Shar'abi pronunciation, & B'nai Ya'aqub relation to Yemenite Hebrew. I also like it written in simple understandble terms so even a kid could understand. On Wikipedia, preferably by a profession!

We know Arabic & Hebrew are sister languages. We also know they that Yemenite Hebrew preserves certain aspects which it shares with ancient classical arabic but not modern Arabic

The Shar'abi accent is well-known, but the "B'nai Ya'aqub" I have never heard of, neither in Israel among the Yemenite Jews, nor in Yemen where I lived for some time. Can you please explain what group you are referring to here?Davidbena (talk) 06:17, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Merge request

I propose that Sanaani Hebrew language be merged into this article. The Sanaani article is very stubby, and contains no information peculiar to the Sanaani dialect, other than links which are also present in this article. It would be nice if someone more knowledgeable than me could expand the part of this article dealing with the differences between the various dialects. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 13:57, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I see absolutely no reason for preserving the separate article: all the relevant information is already there in Yemenite Hebrew. (It would be like having a separate article on "Lithuanian Hebrew", or "Frankfurt-am-Main Hebrew", alongside that on Ashkenazi Hebrew.) Otherwise we would also have to have articles on "Adeni Hebrew language" and all the other Yemenite Hebrew sub-dialects.

What would be useful is for someone to expand "Yemenite Hebrew" to show the geographical boundaries and phonological features of all the sub-dialects (of which, according to Morag, there are five, though I have only come across two). --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) 13:02, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

User:Sirmylesnagopaleentheda, the article Sanaani Hebrew language and "Yemenite Hebrew" are actually one and the same article.Davidbena (talk) 06:21, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Now they are. They weren't in 2007, and that is why I was in favour of merging them. This has clearly since been done. --Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 22:33, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Okay. I hadn't looked at the history.Davidbena (talk) 23:07, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

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Question concerning the removal of vital source

User:AntonSamuel, shalom. I noticed where you removed an important source (written in a footnote) concerning the pronunciation of the "holam" in Sana'a and in the provinces throughout Yemen. I will re-paste the edit for your convenience. Can you please tell me what you thought to be contradictory about the statement, or what you noted as a "conflicting source"?

ḥōlam

References

Best wishes. Davidbena (talk) 19:02, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Hi! The pronuciation of holam as /øː/ is overwhelmingly the case in Yemenite Hebrew from what I've gathered, and I question the validity of the information contained in that quote. Regarding the conflicting source, I was referring to the information and references about holam further down in the article in "Distingushing features" and "Holam and sere" that supports what I mentioned earlier. AntonSamuel (talk) 19:49, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Well, your input is important, but in this case it would seem that you may be a little uninformed. I have actually grown-up among the Yemenites, and as anyone can tell you who has lived among the Yemenite Jews, there are two distinct ways of pronouncing the "holam": one, the traditional Sanani way, which is closer to our regular "o" sound, while the provincial way (in Yemen's rural districts), the "holam" is pronounced more similar to the "sere," and which, by the way, the reference about the "holam" further down implied. Therefore, Abraham Z. Idelsohn's statement is correct. He clearly pointed out the distinction between the Sanani pronunciation and those in the rural villages.Davidbena (talk) 12:39, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

The quote states that holam is pronounced either /äu/~/oi/ or /ä/~/e/, while the rest of the article states that holam is either /ø/ or /e/, that was the contradiction I was referring to. I've posted the other conflicting relevant passages below. You may restore the qoute in the article if you think it's vital, I removed it since I thought it created confusion as it contradicted the rest of the information about holam in the article and since it presented a claim I hadn't come across elsewhere, including in the Hebrew Wikipedia article regarding Yemenite Hebrew. AntonSamuel (talk) 13:03, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

In some dialects, ḥōlem/ħolam (long "o" in modern Hebrew) is pronounced /øː/ (anywhere from non-rhotic English "er" to German o-umlaut), but in others, it is pronounced /eː/ like ṣêrệ/cerej. (The last pronunciation is shared with Lithuanian Jews.) Some see the assimilation of the two vowels as a local variant within the wider Babylonian family, which the Yemenites happened to follow. A distinct feature of Yemenite Hebrew is that there is some degree of approximation between the ḥōlam and the ṣêrệ. To the untrained ear, they may sound as the same phoneme, but Yemenite grammarians will point out the difference. The feature varies by dialect: In the standard, provincial pronunciation that is used by most Yemenite Jews, holam is pronounced as /øː/. For example, the word "shalom" (Hebrew: שָׁלוֹם), is pronounced sholøm, the /øː/ having the phonetic sound of something between a non-rhotic English "er" and the German ö. For all practical purposes, the sound is similar to the "i" in girl. In some provincial dialects, in particular that of Aden, holam becomes a long e and is indeed indistinguishable from sere, and some early manuscripts sometimes confuse or interchange the symbols for the two sounds. Some see the assimilation of the two vowels as a local variant within the wider Babylonian family, which the Yemenites happened to follow.

So, it would have been better for us to make note of this distinction in all places where the pronunciation of "holam" is referred to, rather than expunge an important aspect of its enunciation. Also, Rabbi Yosef Qafih argues in favor of one of the ways in which it was pronounced, while, at the same time, admitting that its pronunciation had changed over the years. Again, the result being that there are two distinct ways of pronouncing the "holam" in the Yemenite dialect. If you'd like to work on adding both methods, I'll give you the liberty to do so. It's important, though, that we keep Idelsohn's very important and invaluable remark on the "holam" as pronounced by the Sanani community and as pronounced in the outlying districts.Davidbena (talk) 21:54, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

References