Talk:Yankees–Red Sox rivalry/Archive 5

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Archive 5

Article renamed

I went ahead and renamed the article Red Sox–Yankees rivalry to keep the teams in alphabetical order, with the second paragraph of WP:AND used as a guideline. NYCRuss ☎ 13:28, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

NYCRuss, should we have the article as Yankees–Red Sox rivalry? I believe so because the news media often says it "Yankees-Red Sox," rather than "Red Sox-Yankees." – SNIyer12, (talk), 02:00, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I have moved it back to the original title per BRD. By all means feel free to open an RM, but I will say that my experience (granted, living in Fairfield County, CT probably has something to do with this) is that it's almost always referred to as the Yankees-Red Sox rivalry. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 17:42, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

I've lived in NYC and Boston. I've heard it as "Yankees-Red Sox" exclusively. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:51, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Yankees–Red Sox rivalry/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: AJona1992 (talk · contribs) 02:36, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Second Reviewer: TheSpecialUser ^TSU 07:00, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

2 deadlinks

Lead

• and fiercest rivalries in sports : this statement and the word "fiercest" needs further explaining. I see that FN#4 confirms this statement of not being comparable to others' because "The hostility and tensions explode onto TV screens all across America and on the baseball field whenever these two teams collide. It's an embedded part of our culture." maybe add a few words explaining the claims would help this sentence not border WP:FAN.
• For more than 100 years, Major League Baseball's Boston Red Sox and New York Yankees of the American League have been intense rivals : why? additionally, the paragraph is far too short so some explaining could do good.
• Similarly, the 2004 AL Championship Series is notable : the words "notable" and "memorable" do not belong in any article on Wikipedia, borders WP:OR and WP:NPOV.
• The lead's paragraphs are inconsistent in means of prose text, one is only two sentences long while the other is 4 sentences, pick a nice flow. Secondly, I do not believe the lead follows WP:LEAD which summarizes the entire article in a max of 4 paragraphs. Example, I see no mention of Violence over rivalry, Rivalry outside of baseball, ratings, and others. Please fix these issues.

Please fix these issues before resuming the review. Best, Jonayo! ^{Selena 4 ever} 21:05, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

I've fixed the deadlinks and added to the lead paragraphs to make it flow easier. -- Luke (Talk) 02:35, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Break 1

Lead

• For more than 100 years, Major League Baseball's Boston Red Sox and New York Yankees of the American League have been intense rivals." ---> For more than 100 years, Major League Baseball's Boston Red Sox and the New York Yankees of the American League have been intense rivals.
• Why isn't Harry Frazee wikilink?
• "Since the inception of the wild card team and an added Division Series, every playoffs has featured one or both of the American League East rivals and they both have squared off in the American League Championship Series three times, with the Yankees winning twice in 1999 and 2003 and the Sox winning in 2004" ----> this huge sentence needs splitting
• "The rivalry is called by many to be the best rivalry in sports" ---> who?
• "and get extensive media coverage," ---> and receive extensive media coverage,

Early History

Glory of Red Sox

• "(The Yankees began play in 1901 as the then-Baltimore Orioles, who played in Maryland for two seasons before moving north)" ---> explain why this sentence is in this state?
• Why isn't George Winter wikilink?
• "Years later in 1912, on April 11, the Highlanders debuted" ---> On April 11, 1912, the Highlanders debuted
• "The victory would not be as memorable for the Titanic sinking replaced it as the front page story." ---> The victory failed to become front page news, due to the Sinking of the RMS Titanic.

Babe Ruth sold to New York Yankees

• "Despite Ruth's success with the Red Sox, owner and Broadway producer Harry Frazee had lost patience with his star, who had threatened to hold out and become a distraction." ---> We already know who is Harry so his last name is only needed per WP:BIO, secondly, "had lost patience with his star" borders WP:OR, WP:FAN, and WP:SOAP. Needs fixing
• Delink Fenway Park
• Delink Babe Ruth
• "But it was not the Ruth deal alone that reversed the fortunes of both clubs." ---> then what was it?
• "Scott, a former Red Sox team captain, actually took the reins as Yankee captain from Ruth when he arrived and in doing so became the only player in history to be named captain for both teams." ----> source?

Curse of the Bambino

• "To make matters worse," ---> WP:WEASELWORDS

1920s and 1930s

• "The tables turn—" ---> not a good section heading
• "April 18, 1923 would be the day" ----> another WP:WEASELWORD and is WP:SOAPish
• "August 12, 1934, would show to be the then largest" ---> per above
• "Record crowds would also show up at Yankee Stadium." ---> numbers available?

Please fix these issues before going on. Best, Jonayo! ^{Selena 4 ever} 14:52, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

I've changed most of the information you mentioned. However for the last request, there are numbers for the record crowds in the two subsequent sentences. -- Luke (Talk) 17:50, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Break 2

The article is looking good :) here are more comments;

Lead

• There are too many instances with "The rivalry" and "the teams" needs different varieties
• "The rivalry is called to be the best rivalry in sports by many sports commentators" ---> what?

1940s-1960s

• "Despite his historic accomplishment, " ---> who said it was a historic accomplishment? otherwise it borders WP:FAN
• "May 15, 1941 in a game where his Yankees lost" ---> remove "his"
• "the two legends." source for them being named a legend? otherwise borders WP:FAN and WP:OR
• "Joe DiMaggio's younger brother Dom would play for the Red Sox his entire career during the 1940s." ---> source?
• "The Red Sox finally stopped the Yankees' momentum in 1946." ---> sounds like a red sox fan who wrote this, the keyword here is "finally" which needs to be addressed.
• "Former legendary manager for the Yankees," ---> another one
• "The city of Boston missed out on a chance for its first all-Boston World Series," ---> explain, I don't see why the whole city needed to be there, unless this sentence is telling readers what it needs to say
• "A Willard Mullin cartoon showed a broken and battered Yankees player trying to "bar the door" of the "First Place" house. Already sitting inside was a Red Sox player wearing a derby, holding an "eviction notice", and telling the Yankee, "Expecting someone, Bub?"" ---> source?
• "The Yankees went on to defeat the Brooklyn Dodgers in the 1949 World Series for their 12th World Championship." ----> source?
• "in the debut of PA announcer Bob Sheppard. " ----> PA what?

More later today. Best, Jonayo! ^{Selena 4 ever} 16:32, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Done, except with the Willard Mullin cartoon, I can't find it anywhere. -- Luke (Talk) 20:10, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

I didn't see any particular relevance to the cartoon. We can't include every mention of the rivalry ever made, only the important ones. I deleted the sentence. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:37, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to ask for a second opinion on this article. Best, Jona^{talk to me} 15:48, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I saw the second opinion tag. Here, I do agree with Muboshgu that there is no need for inclusion. If there is something you like me to have a look in the article then tell me, I'll be happy to do it. TheSpecialUser ^TSU 14:39, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Can you continue the review from where I left off on my 2nd break? Best, Jona^{talk to me} 12:05, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

 Doing... TheSpecialUser ^TSU 05:57, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Comments

• These games have had at least 50% higher ratings than all of the other games broadcast, sometimes almost twice as high -> Twice as high? compared to what?
• However, in New York and Boston, it was blacked out because the YES Network had local rights in New York City and NESN in Boston. -> ref?
• ESPN since June 3, 2007, when the two rivals squared off - change squared off to something neutral such as "faced each other"
• The nature of the rivalry has led to games between the two teams often broadcast on national television -> the last words of the sentence doesn't make any sense. Please clarify
• Whenever they play games during the week, there are games broadcast on MLB Network and ESPN. - ref?
• For example, in the bottom of the 11th inning of Game 7 of the 2003 American League Championship Series, Aaron Boone famously hit Tim Wakefield's first pitch over the left field wall as Buck exclaimed, "The Boston Red Sox, and fans from New England, will tell you that they were five outs away, leading by three—as Boone hits it to deep left. That might send the Yankees to the World Series. Boone is the hero of Game 7!" -> ref?
• (for example, the rivalries between the New York Jets and the New England Patriots in the National Football League and the New York Knicks and the Boston Celtics in the National Basketball Association) -> remove ()
• mayor Rudolph Giuliani, a staunch Yankee fan - staunch? please remove it and make it like this -> mayor Rudolph Giuliani, who is a fan of Yankees
• "TRAITOR!" (Daily News) and "RED COAT" (Post) - link Daily News and Post
• The rivalry between the two teams has been seen, not just on the field, but also off the field. - remove this line
• Don Mattingly had appeared in public service announcements airing on the Spike TV network advocating fathers to spend time with their children as part of the "True Dads" campaign to encourage men to take an active role in their children's lives. Mattingly jokes at the end of the commercial about the impatience of one of the characters in the commercial by calling him a Red Sox fan. - don't think that this is needed thus either remove it or source it and merge with the relevant sub-section.
• After Boston's victory over New York in the 2004 ALCS, college student Victoria Snelgrove died from rowdy fans celebrating the victory. - merge this with the 1st line in the section
• During the final series of the 2010 season, Boston Police arrested a Yankees fan for stabbing a Red Sox fan over an argument about the rivalry. - merge this also with the previous line thus making the section into a single paragraph and also provide a ref.
• The 1961 season saw the famous chase of Babe Ruth's 1927 single season - remove "famous" please
• Both men would battle each other for the record until Mantle got injured late in the season, leaving Marris the only one in the hunt - rephrase as this sounds like a fan is stating it. Not at all neutral
• Red Sox rookie pitcher Tracy Stallard at Yankee Stadium - rookie? either introduce a relevant link or remove the word or replace it.
• The Yankees won the game 1–0 to clinch their 26th American League pennant, on their way to their 19th World Series title. remove terms like "clinch" and re-word the ending of the sentence. Also ref?
• Red Sox rookie pitcher Billy Rohr flirted with the record books - rookie? flirted? slang? in Wikipedia, no! please change the wordings
• Elston Howard hit a two-out, two-strike single in the ninth to spoil the no-hit bid - spoil? remove that word and replace with something encyclopediac please
• ater that year, Red Sox third baseman Joe Foy hit a grand slam during the first game of a two-game series. In the second game, Yankee pitcher Thad Tillotson threw two brushback pitches at Foy before beaning him in the batting helmet. In the next inning, Red Sox pitcher Jim Lonborg beaned Tillotson. Both pitchers yelled at each other, and then a brawl ensued. During the fight, Red Sox outfielder Reggie Smith picked up and body-slammed Tillotson to the ground - ref?
• Per MoS; 9th -> ninth
• The rivalry would intensify in the 1970s with the fans too, as just a year later in 1974 at Fenway Park, Yankees first baseman Chris Chambliss was struck in the right arm with a dart thrown from the stands after hitting an RBI ground-rule double. - REF? Also change "would intensify" to "intensified"
• He would continue to pitch until 1982, but his level of performance was not the same as it was prior to the fight. -> why different? ref? or best to remove the sentence as it becomes too much info
• The Yankees would win the division for the second year in a row -> The Yankees won the division for the second year in a row
• In the middle game of what would prove to be a three-game series sweep by the Red Sox at Fenway Park, Yankees manager Billy Martin pulled Reggie Jackson off the field in mid-inning for failing to hustle on a ball hit to the outfield. The extremely angry and highly-animated Martin had to be restrained by coaches Yogi Berra and Elston Howard from getting into a fistfight with Jackson in the dugout during the nationally-televised Saturday afternoon game. Eventually, emotions calmed down for the season and the Yankees came together to recapture the pennant and defeat the Los Angeles Dodgers in the 1977 World Series, their first since 1962 - ref?
• seemed as if they were destined for a trip to the World Series (aka "Fall Classic") for the second time in the decade -> were looking good for the World Series (aka "Fall Classic") for the second time in the decade
• Both teams made the playoffs in 2009. During the ALDS, the Yankees defeated the Minnesota Twins to face the Angels who had knocked out the Red Sox. The Yankees beat the Angels and went on defeat the Philadelphia Phillies in the 2009 World Series 4–2 to earn their 27th World Series title and their first championship since the Curse of the Bambino died. Former Red Sox pitcher Pedro Martinez was the losing pitcher of record for the defending champions in the last game of the series. - ref?
• would win the 2011 WS in a cakewalk -> would win the 2011 WS easily + what is WS? Link it please + ref?
• The Red Sox spent a great deal to bolster the team in the off-season, and were touting at least - remove bolster and touting.
• AL MVP candidates by mid season. - what is AL MVP? Link?
• The Red Sox spent a great deal to bolster the team in the off-season, and were touting at least two Red Sox as AL MVP candidates by mid season. Following a disastrous first month, the Red Sox climbed in the standings. - ref?
• Despite the lack of championships, the rivalry between the teams did have some memorable highlights. -> Despite the lack of championships, the rivalry between the teams did had some good highlights.
• Despite Righetti's heroics on the last day of the season, - heroics? remove it and add another proper word
• The Yankees' worst nightmare during the 1980s came when the Red Sox faced the Yankees' cross-town rivals, the New York Mets, in the World Series. - worst nightmare? remove the terms and make it neutral with change to "bad performance"
• In Game 6 of the World Series -> In Game six of the World Series
• The 1987 season saw notability with the rivalry at the end of the season when on September 29, Yankee first baseman Don Mattingly set a MLB record by hitting his 6th grand slam home-run of the season against the Red Sox -> The 1987 season saw rivalry at the end of the season, as on September 29, Yankee first baseman Don Mattingly set a MLB record by hitting his sixth grand slam home-run of the season against the Red Sox
• The Red Sox went on to sweep the Colorado Rockies in the World Series. - replace "sweep"
• Controversy erupted during the 8th inning -> Controversy erupted during the eighth inning
• Beginning with the 1995 playoffs, every playoffs have featured the Yankees and/or the Red Sox. As of 2012, the two rivals have made up 25 out of 34 possible playoff appearances, with the two teams reaching the playoffs in the same year 8 times (1995, 1998, 1999, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2007, and 2009). - ref?
• In an effort to shore up their lineup, the Red Sox set up a potential deal that would send reigning AL MVP Álex Rodríguez to Boston and Red Sox slugger Manny Ramírez and prospects to Texas - shore up? change it to something neutral
• The Yankees did not reach the World Series in 1997, but bounced back with one of the greatest seasons in baseball history in 1998 - remove "greatest" and add "better" instead and "bounced" with "came"
• Their fortunes changed the following year. - remove this line
• About four months after win, the Yankees controversially traded fan favorite David Wells - change "win" to "victory"
• Nine years later, in a similar fashion, Red Sox manager Terry Francona managed the American League team at the All-Star Game at Yankee Stadium, in the stadium's final season. - ref?
• These moments of truce were short-lived. - remove it
• Friday, September 10, 1999 saw Chili Davis' 2nd inning -> On September 10, 1999 Chili Davis' second inning
• In Game 7 at Yankee Stadium, the Red Sox -> change "7" with "seven"
• Despite winning the American League pennant, the Yankees lost the World Series to the Florida Marlins when future Red Sox pitcher Josh Beckett pitched a five-hit complete game shutout in the deciding game of the series -> Despite winning the American League pennant, the Yankees lost the World Series to the Florida Marlins, when the future Red Sox pitcher, Josh Beckett pitched a five-hit performance in the deciding game of the series.
• Game 7 loss, claiming he left Martínez in for too long - "7" to "seven"

TheSpecialUser ^TSU 07:00, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I think I addressed all of the above issues. -- Luke (Talk) 01:30, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Great work Luke! (Have seen you around and I'm quite impressed). Anyways, there are no issues other then refs. Here are they:

• The second game of the series, which the Yankees won 14–11, took four hours and 45 minutes to complete, making it the longest nine-inning game in Major League Baseball history. Months after the Yankees loss to the Tigers in the 2006 ALDS and manager Joe Torre's controversial decision to drop a struggling Alex Rodriguez to 8th in the lineup, Rodriguez in an interview with Sports Illustrated, claimed that he had preferred to go to the Red Sox before being traded to the Yankees.[262] The incident would be one of contention between Torre and Rodriguez as noted in Torre's book, The Yankee Years. - ref?
• During the third inning of a 2007 game at Fenway Park, Manny Ramírez, J.D. Drew, Mike Lowell, and Jason Varitek hit four consecutive home runs off Yankee pitcher Chase Wright, powering a comeback from a three-run deficit and completing a three game sweep of the Yankees at Fenway Park for the first time since 1990. By May, after long speculation about what team he would play for after retirement, Roger Clemens chooses to return to the Yankees as opposed to the Red Sox (where he started his career) or the Houston Astros (his hometown and last team he played for). Clemens helps the Yankees overcome a 14 game deficit in the standings to roar back to reach the playoffs again. However, this was not enough to win the division. On September 28, Boston won the AL East after a win against the Minnesota Twins and a loss by the Yankees against the Baltimore Orioles. This was the first AL East Championship for the Red Sox since 1995, ending the Yankees' nine-year reign in the division. - ref?
• During the final series of the 2010 season, Boston Police arrested a Yankees fan for stabbing a Red Sox fan over an argument about the rivalry. - ref?
• Several lesser known moments in the rivalry occurred during the 1930s. Pitcher Red Ruffing was traded in 1930 from the Red Sox to the Yankees. Ruffing, who had limited success with the Red Sox, would go on to a Hall of Fame career with the Yankees winning 6 World Series with them. On August 12, 1934, then the largest crowd in the history of Fenway Park, 46,766, witnessed Babe Ruth's final game at Fenway Park in a Yankees uniform in a game Boston would lose. A year later, the crowd record would be broken again when the two teams met again on September 22, 1935. Record crowds would also show up at Yankee Stadium. On May 30, 1938, before 83,533 spectators, Yankees outfielder Jake Powell and Red Sox player-manager Joe Cronin fought on the field and beneath the stands. Both players were fined and suspended for 10 games. The Yankees and Red Sox would finish first and second in the League respectively that year as well as the following. The Yankees went on to sweep the Chicago Cubs in the World Series and the Cincinnati Reds in the World Series a year later. - ref?
• Last thing- the formats in the "date" and "accessdate" is dual: "1 August 2012" as well as "1 August, 2012". Since this is related to America, please convert all to "1 August, 2012".

• I'm positive you mean American format should be "August 1, 2012" and that's what the conversion should be to, rather than "1 August, 2012". The latter is not a valid format. BlueMoonset (talk) 06:00, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Once addressed, I shall pass this clearly. Great work so far! TheSpecialUser ^TSU 01:38, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

So much {{cite news}} templates :). I think I got everything. -- Luke (Talk) 13:07, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Teixeira-Padilla

The feud between the two is a legitimate and relevant issue within the context of the rivalry. Munson and Fisk HATED each other and it led to one of the most intense decades in the rivalry. The personal feud is what makes the rivalry that much more heated and relevant. Arnabdas (talk) 22:48, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Apples and oranges. I don't see how Teixeira and Padilla's distaste for one another compares. And you should really revert your addition per WP:BRD, in which you were bold, I reverted, and now we discuss without your bold addition present in the article. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:05, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

That's fine about reaching consensus first. I don't understand how they are "apples and oranges" as you say. As I said before, a rivalry is inflamed more when things get personal. Thus it totally makes sense to include it. It adds to the drama that is Yankees-Red Sox. Arnabdas (talk) 23:18, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Munson and Fisk took it out on each other during games over a long period of time. Here, Padilla said something about Teixeira that has had no impact on the field. Teixeira just brushed it off. Munson and Fisk are similar to if it was Jeter and Ortiz. Teixeira and Padilla reminds me more of Pedro and Karim Garcia, except there's no bench clearing near-brawl and nobody's thrown Zim down to the ground. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:34, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

OK, remove it for now. I think it is a noteworthy issue and should be put back in if this feud escalates while they are both on the teams. Arnabdas (talk) 15:26, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

End of 2012 Season

The events around this are very notable to that of the rivalry. When a manager who says he hates the other team in the rivalry gets fired, it is worth mentioning. Furthermore, the Yankees defeated the Red Sox to clinch the division and home field advantage in the playoffs. That too is notable within the context of the rivalry. This isn't a "game by game" recap as you said. Winning the division and securing home field advantage is a notable moment. Arnabdas (talk) 20:37, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

So notable that the Yankees are down 0-3 and losing Game 4 as we speak. The fact that the Yankees clinched home field against the Red Sox is coincidence. That the Red Sox fired their manager is completely immaterial to the Yankees and their rivalry, regardless of what he said to try to stir things up and inject himself into things. His comments may be worth including here, but not his firing. The "game by game" recap I was talking about was the game by game recap of the April series I deleted. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:49, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Coincidences are exactly why the rivalry takes place. All rivalries result because of games they coincidentally play against one another. I know you don't like the rivalry articles based on your past opinion, but given that they exist, the Yankees winning the division and clinching home field advantage after playing them is a relevant piece in a long history between the two teams. Arnabdas (talk) 15:03, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

New Section to Incorporate This Story...Possible Geographic Breakdown or Fan Profile?

CBS Sports showed a breakdown of Connecticut's lines between where fan loyalties tend to lie. I think expanding a section regarding fan demographics, celebrity fans, or something like that could be worthwhile. http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/eye-on-baseball/24424988/geopolitics-the-actual-border-between-red-sox-yankees-nations 161.185.157.22 (talk) 22:33, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Good idea. That map is pretty good too. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 22:00, 23 April 2014 (UTC)