Talk:Yang-style tai chi

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• • README***** umm, for my good 'ol wikipedia hawks who saw this and are going to act on it (right?)--the page is screwed up; the genealogy of the form is conflicting with the box, or the other way around. anyways, it's an impediment, would like it to be fixed. thnx.75.163.62.159 (talk) 12:09, 25 June 2008 (UTC)alp_arslan

List of Wikipedians by martial art add yourself!

Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art

merge

I ahve moved that the page for Tchoung Ta Chen "style" tai chi be merged with Yang style. VanTucky 21:58, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Please Research This

I no longer have access to a University library (graduated two years and 2 months ago), so, please do the article a favor and include information on the three separate frames. All Tai Chi styles ever made, by tradition, have three versions. There is the basic large frame, which is the foundational one, the medium one which is of course intermediate, and finally the most advanced which is the small frame. Traditionally speaking, the Yang family only teaches a small handful of students all three frames. Why is this important?

Well, Tai Chi Chuan can not be used to its fullest potential as a martial art unless all frames are learned because they encompass, naturally, the three ranges of combat. The large frame teaches defense against attacks that come from long range, and it is actually very similar to Aikido. The medium frame teaches defense right as an attacker steps into the "kill zone," or, the point where grappling (stand up or otherwise) will make more of a difference than getting in an actual slugging match. Finally, the small frame, teaches sensitivity to the most minute of muscular twitches in an opponent's body, allowing the practitioner to throw an opponent when they exert just enough kinetic energy to move barely an inch. So, summarized; the large frame teaches coordination, and sensitivity to big movements, the medium frame teaches sensitivity in case of a grappling like situation, and the small frame, the most difficult to master, teaches sensitivity to the tiniest movements of the body.

Everyone has always asked themselves why the Yangs taught their style to the Manchu royal family, after all, did that not make him a traitor to the han people? Master Yang himself was a Han Chinese, not Manchu. To that I say, not necessarily. As with all non-family, or non-chosen students, Master Yang taught only the rudimentary basics to the Manchu Royal family, and their royal guard. As a martial art, everyone who practices Tai Chi knows that the art's true power comes from its effective use of the laws of physics. It is so effective, one needs only the rudimentary basic form to defeat all other styles of Kung Fu, including Shuia Jiao, among various forms of wrestling.

So what am I suggesting here? That Master Yang only taught the rudimentary, basic large frame form, and only rudimentary Tai Chi style Chin Na, in addition to only rudimentary pushing hands exercises. Please do the research; I can almost guarantee you will find a reliable source on the fact that the Yangs do not teach all three frames to outsiders, or, students they do not feel will work hard enough to perfect the form. Master Yang Cheng Fu himself only taught Chen Mang Ching all three frames, while Cheng Mang Ching himself never taught the three frames. The Tai Chi most of us do, is only the basic, rudimentary form, and without an instructor knowleadgable even in the basic push hands or chin na, it can not be used as a martial art. Its a bit of a tragedy, but its true. The few true masters of Tai Chi Chuan, the ones who know every single frame, reside only in China and maybe, perhaps though its a long shot, Taiwan.

Please do the research; you will find proof of what I'm talking about. The Yang style, like all styles of Tai Chi Chuan, actually has three frames, each 108 steps long. You are asking yourself, if true, why three frames? Please do not forget the Daoist philosophy of "stillness" which dictates "big movements are not as refined as medium ones, medium ones, not as refined as small ones, but small movements, not as refined as stillness." The large frame is large, because its easier for people to circulate chi using big movements. As the student gets better and better, they move on to the medium frame to circulate it in a more precise manner. Then the small frame to circulate it in an even more precise manner than that. Finally, to standing perfectly still, and allowing the chi to circulate of its own accord.

If at all possible, please do more research. Also if possible, please inform those interested in Tai Chi that what is learned in the west is an incomplete rudimentary style. That is, we are only taught one of the three frames. I ask that you do this, as a favor to people interested in Tai Chi as a martial art so that they know what they're getting into. Unless one speaks perfect Chinese, and can navigate their way around China as if they live there, they better accept the fact that they will have to make do with only the basic, rudimentary form of whatever style they do. The Chens have been considerably more generous though; even though they teach shortened versions of their forms, they hold nothing back from what I have read both from internet and library sources.

sorry for the length, and sorry for the soapboxing.

good day.

206.63.78.84 (talk)stardingo747 —Preceding comment was added at 00:45, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Interesting stories, but our articles aren't the place to sort them out. Please see WP:SOAPBOX. As for teaching our readers about the quality of modern tai chi, Wikipedia is not a how-to manual. If there are references to the three frames, we can put them in, if not, we won't. The current Yang family teachers, Yang Zhenduo and Yang Jun, deny categorically that there is any Yang style frame but the large. Yang Shou-chung's students state otherwise, and Yang Shaohou was known for his small circle frame, related to what Yang Banhou taught Wu Quanyuo. If the Yang père et fils only taught the Imperial Bodyguard a large frame form, why is Wu Quanyuo's family (direct descendants of the Imperial Guardsmen the Yangs taught) known for their small frame expertise? There is no reliable reference available in our articles that Chen Man-ch'ing was taught any other form than the large frame Yang Chengfu form. He studied with Yang less than ten years. So you see, some of us have done a lot of research, these issues are debatable, and encyclopaedia articles aren't the place to debate them. If you have references, these things may be mentioned, but we aren't going to push them as the truth. --Bradeos Graphon Βραδέως Γράφων (talk) 03:56, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for posting this, anonymous. :) I never heard of these "frames" before, and had only a vague idea (from a source I'm not so certain whether to completely trust, where objectivity is concerned) of how Yang Lu-Ch'an's modifications had impoverished the more sophisticated inner aspects of the style he taught the Manchu imperial family. So, I found it an interesting read. 131.211.210.247 (talk) 12:04, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Move to "Yang-style t'ai chi ch'uan"

It has been discussed at length here: Talk:T'ai chi ch'uan#Romanization / Naming Revisited. Unfortunately the consensus was not reached to move to pinyin (taijiquan), as most other Chinese martial arts have done. This is because although most well learned practitioners and professionals of the martial art refer to it in the pinyin form, the majority of references to it are still in the Wade-Giles form. Consensus was thus reached to at least use the accurate Wade-Giles form, if at all, since the spelling "tai chi chuan" is too ambiguous as in turn one could, for example, also write "chi" (for "qi") instead of "ch'i", and making it appear to be the "chi" in the name (tai chi chuan), etc. This consensus has allowed for correctness while following WP guidelines of adopting the most common usage.
In turn, in all related articles it's to be made immediately clear that "t'ai chi ch'uan" is interchangeable with "taijiquan", e.g. writing "t'ai chi ch'uan (taijiquan)" or "taijiquan (t'ai chi ch'uan"), while on the t'ai chi ch'uan page, a write-up is going to be made to reflect that officially, taijiquan is preferred. For the sake of avoiding unnecessary fragmentation, all the family styles are being renamed to "t'ai chi ch'uan" as well. The shift of common usage is slowing moving toward pinyin and in time the change will be made to it, but for now the current usage in it's correct form is what seems best to use and, of course, to avoid confusion through naming fragmentation, it's best to have all sub-pages in-line with the main t'ai chi ch'uan page. I hope this doesn't upset anyone and you all understand the necessity for the current position that has been taken. InferKNOX (talk) 20:00, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Improving lineage trees

Key:

NEIJIA

Solid lines

Direct teacher-student.

Dot lines

Partial influence /taught informally /limited time.

TAIJIQUAN

Dash lines

Individual(s) ommited.

Dash cross

Branch continues.

CHEN-STYLE

Zhaobao-style

(陈长兴) Chen Changxing 1771–1853 6th gen. Chen Chen Old Frame

(杨露禅) Yang Luchan 1799–1872 YANG-STYLE Guang Ping Yang Yangjia Michuan

(王蘭亭) Wang Lanting 1840–? 2nd gen. Yang

(杨健侯) Yang Jianhou 1839–1917 2nd gen. Yang 2nd gen. Yangjia Michuan

(杨班侯) Yang Banhou 1837–1892 2nd gen. Yang 2nd gen. Guang Ping Yang Yang Small Frame

(武禹襄) Wu Yuxiang 1812–1880 WU (HAO)-STYLE

Zhaobao He-style

(李瑞东) Li Ruidong 1851–1917 Li-style

(杨少侯) Yang Shaohou 1862–1930 3rd gen. Yang Yang Small Frame

(吴全佑) Wu Quanyou 1834–1902 1st gen. Wu

(王矯宇) Wang Jaioyu 1836–1939 3rd gen. Guang Ping Yang

(杨澄甫) Yang Chengfu 1883–1936 3rd gen. Yang Yang Big Frame

(田兆麟) Tian Zhaolin 1891–1960 3rd gen. Yang

Qi Gechen

(吴鉴泉) Wu Jianquan 1870–1942 2nd gen. Wu WU-STYLE 108 Form

(孙禄堂) Sun Lutang 1861–1932 SUN-STYLE

(董英杰) Dong Yingjie 1891–1960 4th gen. Yang

(陈微明) Chen Weiming 1881–1958

(張欽霖) Zhang Qinlin 1888–1967 3rd gen. Yangjia Michuan

Kuo Lien Ying 1895–1984 4th gen. Guang Ping Yang

(傅仲文) Fu Zhongwen 1903–1994 10th gen. Chen Beijing form

(郑曼青) Zheng Manqing 1902–1975 4th gen. Yang Short (37) Form

(吴公儀) Wu Gongyi 1900–1970 3rd gen. Wu

(吴公藻) Wu Gongzao 1903–1983 3rd gen. Wu

Taiwan

Robert W. Smith 1926–2011

(黃性賢) Huang Xingxian 1910–Present

(杨振铭) Yang Shouzhong 1910–1985 4th gen. Yang

(王延年) Wang Yennien 1914–2008 4th gen. Yangjia Michuan

Taiwan

Benjamin Pang Jeng Lo 1927–Present

William C. C. Chen 1935–Present

(杨振铎) Yang Zhenduo 1926–Present 4th gen. Yang

(田英嘉) Tian Yingjia 1931–2008 4th gen. Yang

Wudang-style

United States

Big Six Tam Gibbs Lou Kleinsmith Ed Young Mort Raphael Maggie Newman Stanley Israel

Little Six Victor Chin Y. Y. Chin Jon Gaines Natasha Gorky Wolfe Lowenthal Ken VanSickle

Ip Tai Tak 1929–2004 5th gen. Yang

(杨军) Yang Jun 1968–Present 5th gen. Yang

(田邴原) Tian Bingyuan ?–Present 5th gen. Yang

Yao Guoqing ?–Present 5th gen. Yang

CHEN-STYLE

YANG-STYLE

WU-STYLE

SUN-STYLE

WU (HAO)-STYLE

I'm working hard on improving the lineage trees for the main taijiquan page and for all the family style pages. Please comment on the this tree where you feel improvements can be made and help me by posting information on individuals that aught to be included in the tree and the reason for their significance so that a detailed Yang-style tree can be produced. All individuals to be added that are approved upon (via consensus of course) will be added, unless they threaten to make the tree excessively large whilst adding little value to the overall tree.
The tree on the main page is to focus on the gate keepers of the styles in order to show each family style's lineage without making it excessively large, while the trees on the family style pages are to be more focused on the particular styles, showing a more in depth view of it's development & connection to other family styles. I hope to hear from as many of you as possible & will continue making edits to the tree here as feedback comes in. Thanks. InferKNOX (talk) 20:44, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks to the help of many individuals (outside of Wiki) and research on my part, I've hugely increased the size of the Yang-style tree. Please review it and comment on any errors, improvements or other amendments that should be made. Thanks. ~ InferKNOX (talk) 17:00, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

I think this is now ready, unless there's contestation. ~ InferKNOX (talk) 14:56, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

I may be a few years out of date answering this request, but I want to propose and addition to the Yang section of the chart. Tung (Dong) Ying Chieh is on the chart, but his successors are not. His son Tung Hu Ling passed the teachings on to three of his children. His son Kai Ying established a school in Los Angeles, and his students all over the world; his son Chen Wei has taken over the Los Angeles school, and both continue to teach workshops. Ying Chieh's grandson Dong Zeng Chen established a school in Hawaii, and passed the art on to his son Dong Da De (Alex Dong) who now teaches in New York. So the Tung/Dong family has two relatively young, active lineage holders in the US, and their kids are learning too. Both branches have students all over the world; this family should be represented on the chart. Wood Monkey 23:03, 4 August 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neurodog (talk • contribs)

What makes Yang different

There is no information on the page about what yang tai chi actually is, only where it comes from, who practiced it, it's influences on other forms, etc.

The article should have a section preferably near the top which at the very least explains the differences from other styles, and with a general outline of the style. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.144.156 (talk) 16:11, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Potential renaming under discussion

Editors interested in this topic are politely asked to participate in the discussion here: Talk:Tai chi#Consistency among Tai chi-related articles. SilverStar54 (talk) 06:21, 12 June 2023 (UTC)