Talk:Yane Sandanski/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Documents about the Bulgariannes of Yane Sandanski and his faction

Source: "Macedonia. Documents and materials", published by the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences, Institute of History, Bulgarian Language Institute, Sofia, 1978, Part III National-Liberation Struggles (1878 - 1918), records No. 112, 113, 114, 116, 118, 119, 120, 121 (retrieved on September 7, 2007).

112. An excerpt from the leading article entitled "Our Positions" in the first number of Sandanski's party organ - newspaper "Narodna Volya", explains the demands of the Bulgarian People's Federal Party, Thessalonica, No. 1, January 17th, 1909 (the original is in Bulgarian language):

• Edinstvo and Constitoutsionna Zarya had only provisional tasks, the most important of which was to help the Bulgarians in the Empire to orientate their social and political thought amidst the sudden changes in the internal life of the country; to propagate the new ways of thought and new forms of struggle made necessary by the changes, to point out the need to organize Ottoman democratic parties and to raise their common slogans. This aim has been achieved. In the ranks of the Bulgarian element the organization of democratic forces is already taking place. On the one hand, we observe the speedy growth of the Bulgarian People's Federal Party (BPFP) and, on the other, the first beginnings of the Workers' Party. The need for the further concentration of the forces around the two party groupings, the need for purely party newspapers, led to the appearance of Narodna Volya as a Party organ of the BPFP which is already in formation, and the newspaper Rabotnik, which will soon begin to appear as the theoretical organ of the Workers' Party (WP). To disseminate the ideas of our party and to defend our positions - this will be our daily task. In this article, however, we want to set forth the general outlines of these positions and ideas. As an organ of the BPFP, Narodna Volya defends and expresses the in­terests mainly of that part of the Bulgarian population, which comprises its predominant majority, and which is the most important element in that party -the petty owners deprived of all state protection, the landless or poor farmers, petty shopkeepers, craftsmen and merchants. These are the social strata whose interests today are the interests of the Bulgarian nationality in the Empire.

113. An excerpt from an article entitled "Two Tactics" in newspaper "Narodna Volya" expresses the view that the Ottoman Bulgarians should not rely on external intervention and the Macedonian Bulgarians have to cooperate with other Ottoman nationalities as Sandanski's Bulgarian People's Federative Party offers, Thessalonica, No. 1, January 17th, 1909 (the original is in Bulgarian):

• In fact, the Constitutional Clubs, at the bottom of their hearts, still keep their old distrust of constitutional reforms. For this reason, they could not become a really significant force for the development of democracy, which alone provides conditions under which the Bulgarian element as well would, together with the other nationalities, be able to feel free and equal. They probably said to themselves: 'We shall wait and see what the "Young Turk" Revolution will bring us.' And they waited at a time when it was necessary to work with all their strength for the organization of those forces which alone could make the Constitution a reality. To see what the others will give us! This could be said only by a man, who relies on what the others will give him, instead of winning his rights through his own efforts and struggles. And such are the people around the Constitutional Clubs. Being for the most part foreign agents, they have neither the desire, nor the interest, to show the Bulgarian people in the Empire that the Bulgarians there should not rely on others, as they have done until now, but that they too, like the other nations eager to achieve equality and justice, should take the responsibility for what has been won and what remains to be won. But they are not doing it because they know that if they say 'A' they will have to say 'B' as well, i.e. if they teach the people to rely on their own strength, they will not be able to avoid a confederation of all freedom-loving forces in the Empire. And this is contrary to the interests of the Bulgarian pseudo-patriots. It is much more in their in­terests to prove that only the Bulgarians are unjustly treated. To say that out of 38 million Ottoman citizens only one million Bulgarian-Exarchists are unjustly treated! And this agitation of theirs obviously aims at keeping the Bulgarian population in an isolated state in order to enable some dirty hands to use them.

114. From the speech of Habib Bey at the 11th session of the Ottoman Parliament, January, 19th, 1909 (the original is in Turkish language):

• It is not improbable that the Bulgarians had something in mind. Recently they coined a phrase which has become a slogan: 'Macedonia for the Macedonians.' The faction of the Supremists thrived under the name of Centralists. One of the factions set con­siderable conditions before the Committee of the Young Turks, while the other is trying with all its might to become Ottoman. This latter is the faction of Sandanski. It is entirely Ottoman and will remain so forever. Let it propagate its views so that all Bulgarians will become genuinely attached to us.

116. An exceprt from a report by the Greek Consul in Syar to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs on the dangerous propagation of the Bulgarian spirit in the region of Syar, January 31st, 1909 (the original is in Greek Language):

• The leaders and the revolutionaries make the rounds of the villages and some of them are appointed as teachers, the constant collec­tion of taxes from the peasants still continues, those that do not submit are punished, the Organization is supported, military drill continues and everything else as well, just as before the Constitution, and this with the knowledge and forbearance of the Turks and the government, who are afraid to persecute Bulgarians, nor do they even dare offend them. In actual fact, in the south there are no detachments except for the old revolutionaries, who, armed and un­troubled, visit the villages and freely come on their lofty and peace-loving work , while with us it is just the opposite. In the north there are two or three detachments maintained by Sandanski to strengthen his influence, to collect levies, drill the peasants, etc. The leader of the detachment at Melnik is a man named Tosho, who has fled from justice. Besides the detachments there are seven Bulgarian officers, disguised as peasants, who visit the villages and drill the peasants. In a fortified valley in the mountain of Orvil (Mount Pirin), Bulgarian peasants constantly practise shooting and various military exercises in companies and battalions. It is inexplicable how the leaders and deputy-leaders from Sandanski's party, having brainwashed the peasants, send them afterwards to the Bulgarian archpriest in Syar and to the Bulgarian diplomatic agent, when at the same time Bulgaria pretends to be mercilessly pursuing San­danski's men. The number of guests to the above-mentioned characters on the part of the Bulgarophone peasants recently is extraordinary.

118. An excerpt from the editorial "The Parties and the Workers" in the newspaper "Rabotnicheska Iskra" ("Worker's spark"), refers to the "People's Federal Party" and "The Union of the Bulgarian Constitutional Clubs" as being Bulgarian parties in Macedonia and the region of Odrin, Bitola, No. 4, February 15th, 1909 (the original is in Bulgarian):

• In contrast, the Bulgarian Federal Party is the representative of the petty merchants, artisans and peasants, of the grocers and innkeepers, in short, of what is called the petty bourgeoisie. Thus, if the first is a bourgeois party, the second is a petty bourgeois party. The fact that the latter sides with the farm workers and with the poor peasants in general and stresses as a special point on its programme a demand for social reform, in the sense that the government should give land to these peasants - this fact does not in itself make it any better than a petty bourgeois party, which it is in essence. Because, first of all, it regards the problem of the social reform as a means of creating more petty owners, i.e. a more numerous petty bourgeois class, as a solution to what is today called a 'social problem'; secondly, 'this same social reform is the aim of the Bulgarian Macedonian-Adrianople Constitutional Party, except that for this party, the reform has a different, a purely bourgeois meaning. On the other hand, the Bulgarian Federal Party is also as nationalistic as the first party. The difference lies in the fact that the first party wants the Bulgarians to be united with Bulgaria under any conditions, while the second party wants this only providing that there is no monarchism, -etc., in Bulgaria.

119. An excerpt from a report by the Greek Consul in Syar to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Athens on the decline of Greek propaganda in the struggle against the Bulgarians, February 28th, 1909 (the original is in Greek):

• As I have already informed you, different leaders have formed their own detachments but they are not as yet active, either because of the winter, or because they are expecting a signal. I was informed yesterday that, besides the detachment of Stoyu Hadjiev, who fled from justice, one of Sandanski's aides, who has been roaming freely in the region of Kroushevo (Demir Hissar) has turned up near Yakovo and Bogoroditsa (Petrich), and also Mircho, with a detachment of six teen. Other smaller groups keep visiting those parts to boost Sandanski's in­fluence. In the south, and especially on the plain of Syar, efforts most energetic, varied and more consistent than ever before are being made to ensure the final predominance of the Bulgarians. I cannot but express my fears as to the final victory of the Bulgarians.

120. An excerpt from a report by the Greek Consul in Syar to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Athens on the raising of the agrarian problem on the part of the Bulgarians, March 6th, 1909 (the original is in Greek):

• Before the Constitution, the agrarian question was one of the most impor­tant plans of the Bulgarian cause, but since July 11th this question has become the basic concern of Bulgarian propaganda. Indeed, if some other event, be it war or radical agreement among the European Powers, does not solve the Macedonian question, there is, in my opinion, no doubt that the solution of the agrarian question will prepare the final solution of the Macedonian question. Earlier on, the Bulgarians promised that the distribution of the farm land would start immediately after the unification of Macedonia with Bulgaria, or after it had acquired autonomy. Later, at the talks between the Young Turk Committee and Sandanski, the latter made the agrarian question the most important condition for his cooperation with the Turks and his services to Young Turkey. The Young Turk Committee, alarmed by the impending danger that the farm hands would be in constant excitement and would rise in the event of their demands not being met, promised to accept their demands and also to give the Bulgarians land sufficient for their needs.

121. An excerpt from an article in the Sandanski's party organ "Narodna Volya" about Gotse Delchev, Thessalonica, No. 19, April 25th, 1909 (the original is in Bulgarian):

• The Bulgarian population in Macedonia and the Odrin region has lived through such a historical moment. Under impossible conditions of life and development, it was forced to organize itself, and to start a struggle of life and death, an unequal and bloody struggle. In this agonizing and unequal struggle, the Bulgarian people in Macedonia demonstrated rare resilience and rare tenacity, it created strong characters and heroes, it reared innumerable modest people, steeped in bright idealism, people who were completely selfless, living with the interests and the ideals of their nation and finding their unnamed graves in the forests and plains.

Jackanapes 17:23, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Three unfortunate facts

I can see at least three unfortunate facts here, but feel free to correct me:

1. The modern Macedonian state has not published NEARLY enough books, or propagated original documents to support its cause as the modern Bulgarian state (which is much older). This goes for print as well as web publications.
2. The Slavic population of the geographical territory of Macedonia has gone through so much suffering and oppression, and so many foreign propaganda's trying to put so many labels on it and force it to wear them, that the Bulgarian one seemed to stick the most, for one or another reason. That is, of course, until the national awakening in which most of the population decided to call themselves ethnic Macedonians, different from all others. Just remember the lyrics of the old song 'Narode Makedonski' (ah, I should put that in wikipedia :)
3. Whether because of the population ration, or for some other reasons, there are many more Bulgarians than Macedonians on wikipedia, and large percentage of the Bulgarians seem to be history buffs, well versed in Balkans history and know their way around secondary and primary sources, which cannot be really said for their Macedonian counterparts.

I was gonna write a 'soap box' conclusion here, but I am tired of preaching today :) Capricornis 02:54, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

So what you mean is that Bulgarians are more familiar with Balkan history? If that is so why do you deny them/us that knowledge? Oh, and I'd really love to hear the reason why "Bulgarian propaganda" sticks best. Because of the identical language? Or because of what all the Ottoman censuses showed prior to WWI? Or is it something else? --Laveol ^T 11:55, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Identical language? Please don't show your ignorance in public, it is embarassing :) The Macedonian language is much more different from the Bulgarian Language, than Serbian Language is from Croatian Language or Czech Language and Slovak Language, and yet no one is killing themselves claiming they are the same languages. Also Serbs can understand bulgarian without studying it and vice versa, are those the same too? Capricornis 05:16, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Jacnapess, please post the macedonian and bulgarian passages that you deleted to show how similar they are, then i can post serbian and croatian passages, czech and slovak passages, ukrainian, russian and byelorussian passages, and even spanish and portugese passages, so we will let our readers judge which ones are more similar. Just because some languages are closely related and mutually intelligible it doesn't make them identical in the linguistic world Capricornis 17:19, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok, let it be almost identical then since this fires you up that much. It was just an answer to your sarcastic comments (not just on this talkpage). Since it sounds too offensive bear in mind that this is the official position of the Bulgarian government (Macedonian is a regional form of Bulgarian). --Laveol ^T 19:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I am familiar with the official position of the Bulgarian government and its irrationality, and believe me, so are many other people in the West. And no, it doesn't fire me up at all, why would it, as it is based on nothing substantial as any professional linguist would tell you. On the contrary, it seems to fire you up a lot, and stirs a lot of emotions and insecurity within you. Don't worry, most psychologists agree that it will pass as you grow up ;) Capricornis 04:03, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Read Wikipedia:Civility, refrain from making statements that might be offensive to people, even if you regard them as "jokes". Mr. Neutron 04:56, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

There is a fine line between a sense of humor and bad manners, and in my personal opinion I have not crossed it. As always, your mileage may vary :) Capricornis 05:18, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Talk pages are not for people to find out how good or how bad your humor is. Stick to discussing content not contributors, and do not make any more attacks. Mr. Neutron 05:26, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Please try to restrain your need to tell me what to do. thank you Capricornis 05:39, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I am informing you about rules in Wikipedia you are breaking, so that they wont be broken again. It is for everyones benefit. Mr. Neutron 05:44, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Mercia MacDermott

Can somebody comment the book of Mercia MacDermott "For Freedom and Perfection? The Life of Yane Sandansky" [1] , London, 1988. It seems that the colections of big number of documents qouted above (Primary sources) are used by M. MacDermott for her work, which is a Secondary source - a literature created by scientist.--GrigorG 17:39, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I, personally, find this a perfect source that I already mentioned above. It's good that you have found the text in the Internet as we can have the exact quotes now. --Laveol ^T 17:46, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

A speech by Yane Sandanski held in the town of Nevrokop (present day Gotse Delchev, Bulgaria) during the Young Turks' revolution, quoted in her book, p. 344:

• Today, all of us—Turks, Bulgarians, Greeks, Albanians, Jews and others —we have all sworn that we will work for our dear Fatherland and will be inseparable, and we will all sacrifice ourselves for it, and, if necessary, we will even shed our blood. Enlightenment is the surest guarantee of the wellbeing of a country; therefore, open schools! And enlighten yourselves! And we will demand from the Sultan that which is necessary for the amelioration of the state of the population, and, if he gives us no satisfaction, we will demand it with force, and will shout with one voice: ‘Down with the Sultan! Down with the Sultan! Down with the Sultan!.

A footnote regarding this document: "This part of Yané’s speech is quoted from a hand-written leaflet, bearing the seal of the Razlog Committee for Union and Progress, and a price, i.e. the leaflet was one of many copies made for sale. The leaflet was found among the papers of Lazar Kolchagov of Bansko, and was published by Ivan Diviziev in Istoricheski Pregled, 1964, Book 4 /Nov Dokument za Yané Sandansky/." - Jackanapes 19:32, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

External links

I'm troubled by the balance of the "External links" section. There are 4 external links, out of which 3 are dedicated to the Bulgarian point of view and only 1 to the Macedonian point of view. I think this should be discussed. INkubusse 23:02, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I've noticed that too. Do you know of any? Capricornis 08:16, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, all of these are representing the Bulgarian POV - the macedonian link is actually a macedonian translation of the second bg source and a genuine Sandanski's text. Asenizator 19:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that the Bulgarian POV is more popular - including historians in the West. What about if this POV is NPOV?--GrigorG 18:06, 21 September 2007 (UTC) You don't seem to understand what NPOV is, Grigor. The 'N' stands for Neutral, including both sides' view, not for Bulgarian. iNkubusse ^? 22:21, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

There are no "both sides". See Wikipedia:Fringe theories, also Wikipedia:Undue weight, both of which refer to the "Macedonian position". ForeignerFromTheEast 00:21, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

The Macedonian view is not a fringe theory. You suggest it's just some rumour, but it's accepted both in the Republic of Macedonia and by the Macedonian diaspora thoughout the world, and some other parties; so it shouldn't be qualified as a fringe theory.

"Undue weight" suggests that tiny minority views should deserve very little attention (or not at all). But again, this is not a tiny minority view and deserves some room in the "External links" part. iNkubusse ^? 01:47, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, we have already discussed the 'tininess' of these theories and got to the conclusion that it is at least 'a pretty small part' if not tiny. Especially in western sources. --Laveol ^T 10:03, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Town of Sandanski

The town of Sandanski is in the Blagoevgrad Province; there is no official Pirin Macedonia in the Republic of Bulgaria. Politis 10:55, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Dear Politis, as I already have told you (as Jackanapes), the unofficial name "Pirin Macedonia" is quite popular in Bulgaria. It is common practice among Bulgarians from Macedonia to refer to the administrative region, known officially as Blagoevgrad Province, also as Pirin Macedonia. This name is used in the contemporary Bulgarian scientific literature as well. There is a variant "Pirin region" too. For example an encyclopaedia "Пирински край" or "Pirin region" in two volumes was issued in 1990ies. Please, don't ignore these facts, the official name of that province isn't the only name of that part of Bulgaria. - Dimitar Navorski 11:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)