Talk:Yagyū Shinkage-ryū

This page ( http://www.furyu.com/onlinearticles/YagyuSR.html ) claims that the demonstration was given not to Tokugawa Hidetada, but to his father Tokugawa Ieyasu, even before he became Shogun. The page includes a legend about how this was influential in winning the battle of Sekigahara:

The Yagyu Shinkage-ryu is one of the premiere swordfighting styles of old Japan. It was developed when Kamiizumi Ise No Kami, a master of the Shinkage-ryu style, encountered Yagyu So'uemon No Jo Muneyoshi (Sekishusai). When Muneyoshi lost to Ise No Kami in several bouts with training swords, he asked to be a student of Ise No Kami. Afterwards, Muneyoshi was certified as a master of the Shinkage style. As a provincial lord in the Yamato area, Muneyoshi became embroiled in the battles and wars of that time. He presented his family style of the Shinkage-ryu to Tokugawa Ieyasu at Takagamine, a hill in Northern Kyoto. Supposedly, Ieyasu had a go at the barehanded Muneyoshi, who was in his 80s, after the regular demonstration. Muneyoshi disarmed the wooden sword from Ieyasu's grasp and threw him to the ground. Elated at the expertise of the old warrior, Ieyasu asked to have him serve the Tokugawa family. Muneyoshi declined, citing his age, and instead sent one of his sons, Munenori, to serve Ieyasu.

At the Battle of Sekigahara (1600), Munenori was at the main encampment, with Ieyasu. Accounts say that a raiding party burst upon the camp and attempted to assassinate Ieyasu and the generals. Munenori leapt into the battle and quickly dispatched some tens of the enemy before the rest ran away. For his skill, Munenori's fortunes rose rapidly. He became a fencing master to the Tokugawa shoguns. Later in his life, he became Soh-metsuke, or overseer of the "outside" daimyo, those not originally allied to the Tokugawa. Munenori founded the Edo Yagyu branch, the side of the Yagyu family that resided in the shogun's capitol of Edo (present-day Tokyo). Another brother, Yagyu Shinjiro Toshikatsu, went to serve the Owari Tokugawa, and Toshikatsu's son Hyogo No Suke Toshiyoshi Myounsai founded the Owari Yagyu.

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Its name roughly means Yagyu's heart-reflection school. I don't think this is correct. The "shin" is not the kanji for "heart" but the one for "new" which is also pronounced "shin." The translation is more like "new shadow school." One source for this translation is here: http://www.koryubooks.com/library/dlowry2.html

and a source for the kanji: http://www.kusastro.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~baba/iaido/

needing cleanup

It's been awhile since anyone made a big contribution to this article and I intend to do my best to clean it up. So unless someone else is planning&preparing to do it then I'll proceed once I get my sources in order. Fred26 11:37, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

needs an expert

This article needs the attention of an expert. I did some cleanup and broke it into paragraphs for easier reading but there are some things I can't fix for fear of altering the meaning.--killing sparrows 04:02, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi... I'll rewrite this soon as I get a chance. What's up there now is just mostly... uh... mmmm... ill-informed... My credentials are that I have studied under Yagyu Nobuharu Sensei for the last eight years and translated (for exchange students) the Chukyo Daigaku Textbook on the subject (composed by the only person authorized to teach Shinkage Ryu outside the Yagyu-kai). I'm sure the folks who wrote this are well meaning... but a great deal of the information being presented to the public here is just plain wrong... So I'll try to help out when I get the chance. Take care, JMDunn 15:11, 1 May 2007 (UTC) J.M. Dunn

"Until the 16th century, Japanese martial techniques were concerned with effectiveness in real battle"

"Until the 16th century, Japanese martial techniques were concerned with effectiveness in real battle". So when the 16th century came all of a sudden effective techniques were not prioritised? Doesnt sound very reasonable considering the 16h century was the main time-line for the Age of War. I've removed this statement but I would very much like to hear the source for this claim. Fred26 07:32, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Founder of Yagyu Shinkage-ryu

I think it should be expressed more clearly that Muneyoshi is the founder of Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, while Nobutsuna is the founder only of Shinkage-ryu. Please be aware that I am familiar with the excellent work of some of the editors of this page, so I am not ascribing any devious intent when I make the following statement: because of the obsession with lineage and seniority that many people have, this article may give the impression that the prominence of Nobutsuna in the article is a POV attempt to extend the lineage of Yagyu Shinkage-ryu back a little farther.

I recommend two things. First and more importantly, the content of Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, Shinkage-ryu, Kamiizumi Nobutsuna, and Yagyu Muneyoshi needs to be harmonized, and the amount of overlapping information needs to be decreased.

Second, (and if you disagree, by all means lets discuss it) I think Nobutsuna's name should be removed from the infobox on this page, and Muneyoshi should be listed there as the sole founder, and Nobutsuna should be treated more as a supplemental reference, and the subject of this article should primarily be the nature and history of the school from Muneyoshi's time on. Nobutsuna's personal philosophy and influence should be primarily (though certainly not exclusively) discussed on the Nobutsuna and Shinkage-ryu pages.

No argument from me. My knowledge of YSKR is limited and the only thing I've done in this article is the info-box. I added Nobutsuna to the info-box it sounded proper at the time, but I got no deep knowledge, just superficial. I'd like to see this article getting a proper knowledgeable guardian as well. Fred26 19:03, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Historically speaking, these are all very important articles - I'm excited to see the progress being made.Bradford44 14:48, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

No. Kamiizumi Isenokami is the founder of Shinkage Ryu, and Yagyu Shinkage Ryu is not a separate school. KI passed on the school to Yagyu Munetoshi (aka Muneyoshi, aka Sekishusai), and the addition of "Yagyu" at the front is simply a result of the school's long association with the Yagyu family. "Yagyu Shinkage Ryu" (or even "Yagyu Ryu") is a popular name. The correct name of the school is Shinkage Ryu Heihou or Shinkage Ryu Hyouhou. The school did not change, nor did Munetoshi (Muneyoshi) found a new school; the founder of the school that he inherited is Kamizumi Isenokami (Nobutsuna). JMDunn 15:23, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Then should there be separate articles for Shinkage-ryu, and Yagyu Shinkage-ryu? If not, which one should redirect to the other? Bradford44 15:43, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

To get the impression that there are two seperate ryu is easy. This is due to the fact that it seems individual dojos use Shinkage-ryu and Yagyu Shinkage-ryu indifferently. Like this dojo. They dont even mention Yagyu until half-way down the page and the site introduces itself as Shinkage-ryu. Anyways, if all this is correct then we should prepare a merger and redirect the technically obsolete Shinkage-ryu into Yagyu Shinkage-ryu. I'd like to hear more comments from all contributors involved first..as I said, I'm not very knowledgeable about YSKR. Fred26 15:53, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

You should be careful in contributing or editing an excyclopedia article based on research you've done through the internet. Various groups doing Shinkage Ryu, or what they call Shinkage Ryu, have political reasons for including or omiting the Yagyu name. Also, lot of the information you will find on the internet is, for various reasons, just plain wrong. Some, as with the case of this article I expect, being simply honest lack of knowledge, but some of it is deliberate obfuscation. I will attempt to re-write this article this summer, and will check everything with the current headmaster of the school, Yagyu Koichi, before posting it, but right now I just don't have the time. Yagyu Nobuharu Sensei passed on two months ago. I thought what I had writen previously was clear, but apparently not. "Shinkage Ryu" is not obsolete any more than the name William is just because many people go by Bill. Also, there is no shurikenjutsu in Shinkage Ryu Hyouhou, that's an utterly different martial arts school that happens to have homophonic name (I don't know what kanji it is written with) JMDunn 04:22, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi guys. I am a student of a Japanese Government officially recognized school of Shinkage Ryu / Yagyu Ryu. Which means the current Grand Master of Shinkage Ryu founded our school. His ancestors can be traced back almost 500 years as owners of the school. Just so you guys know Yagyu and Shinkage are the same thing. It is correct to call it Shinkage Ryu. It is correct to call it Yagyu Ryu. It is incorrect to call it Yagyu Shinkage Ryu. Same thing two names. The original founder did not have a son. So he left the school to a legendary swordsman that was his student. That guys family name was Yagyu. They improved on the schools Kata and added many new Kata. So its now known as Yagyu. Even today descendents of the Yagyu family own it. These guys taught the Tokugawa. Thats why they are so famous. Ieyasu Tokugawa and his entire army were students of Yagyu Ryu. Jmdunn I really do not know of anyone who might have political reasons for ommiting the Yagyu name. I asked my Sensei and he says that its just improper to say Yagyu Shinkage Ryu. He says all schools of Shinkage are proud of the Yagyu name. As the legendary swordsman Yagyu Munenori can not be forgotten. He seemed kind of insulted that someone might have political motivation against the Yagyu name. Hope this helps. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Smasher666 (talk • contribs) 09:45, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I will try again as it appears my earlier comments were not posted. I am a student of Yagyu Shinkage-Ryu based here in Fukuoka, Japan. I have been training for over 7 years here, and intend to open a school in Australia/New Zealand when I return around 2010. I have added my website to allow you all to view the documented history and offiical lineage of my school. Kuroda Han Yagyu Shinkage-Ryu Aratsu-Kai. Yagyu Shinkage-Ryu sword masters were sent to Fukuoka in Kyushu to protect Lord Kuroda. http://www.shadowsword.jp This website also contains some history of Yagyu Shinkage-Ryu as well, as references to find more information. I believe that there are many factions of Yagyu Shinkage-Ryu all throughout Japan, and no one school has the right to say they are the only true source. This art is well documented through time, over 500 years, so it stands to reason that there are many branches to this tree. My branch in Fukuoka has a well documented history that is authentic and can be easily traced, as I am sure many others also have. Lets all enjoy this living museum, this sword art, and help to preserve it for future generations. All the very best. ArakiPaul Fukuoka Japan —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arakipaul (talk • contribs) 08:44, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Folks, it seems like things have stalled a bit, but this article still needs some major clean up. Regarding Shinkage Ryu vs Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, I think looking at the official page of the ryu can help clear things up: Yagyu Shinkage Ryu Heiho. The English page notes: "Shinkage Ryu Heihou has been the formal name of our school from the beginning. Nowadays, however, because the school is so strongly associated with the Yagyu family in the popular mind, and because the legitimate succession is recognized in relation to the Yagyu family by groups such as the Association of Japanese Martial Arts and the Budo Institute, we operate this site under the name of Yagyu Shinkage Ryu Heihou." Also, it's notable that that in the Japanese Wikipedia, "Yagyu Shinkage Ryu" redirects to "Shinkage Ryu". Finally, as J.M. Dunn noted earlier, the soke line of Shinkage Ryu, even when publically referring to itself as "Yagyu Shinkage Ryu", credits Kamiizumi Nobutsuna as its founder, not Yagyu Muneyoshi/Munetoshi, so I think putting Muneyoshi down as the founder is misleading. I suggest the articles be merged under "Shinkage Ryu Heihō", with a note that the mainline is popularly known as Yagyu Shinkage Ryu due to its association with the Yagyu family. JReyer (talk) 06:10, 31 March 2008 (UTC)