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Merge??

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I see that Yupik suggests merging this into Xueta. Obviously that is the eventual intent - see Talk:Xueta#Start over; if someone wants to actually merge sections as they are translated, it's fine with me, but my intent was to complete the translation (on which help is very welcome) and then merge.

Also, Yupik, I'm not sure that putting this in categories while the translation is still in progress is a great idea, though I won't fight over it. - Jmabel | Talk 06:00, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I do apologize! I'll delete the cats and the merges today and I'll try and help with the translation, although religion is definitely one of those fields that is not my speciality. -Yupik 09:17, 10 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Some translation help requested

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I read Catalan moderately well, but I have never studied it, and there are doubtless gaps in my knowledge, some of which a dictionary will not fill. A few questions; doubtless there will be more.

  • In "orella alta" and "orella baixa": what does orella mean here? The only meaning I'm familiar with is "ear", but that makes no sense here.
  • Això, probablement, els permeté mantenir el gruix del grup de conversos relativament intacte.: I'm not sure I understand gruix in this context. I understand the literal meaning (thickness, bulk), but I'm not sure whether it mean that the group maintained its numbers relatively intact or its character.
  • What exactly does one do with a name like "Pere Onofre Cortès als. Moixina"? I'm unfamiliar with "als." Is it just an "a.k.a." or is it actually part of a name, in which case it should probably be mentioned in Iberian naming customs.
    • Below: Joan seems to agree that it is like "a.k.a". How should we render it in the article? - Jmabel | Talk 06:54, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'd just use the English word, whatever it is (alas?) because the current Catalan word "malnom" does not necessarily applied back in the day. Mountolive 04:42, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • I'm guesing that by "alas" here, you mean "alias"? Not a great choice: it tends to suggest use of a false name for criminal, or at least underhanded, purposes. "A.k.a." ("also known as") is probably better; our manual of style doesn't like the abbreviation, and wants it written out, so it would be "also known as". - Jmabel | Talk 01:10, 18 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • How close a relation is implied by familiars directes? Is it the same as the English "immediate family" or would it, for example, include a grandparent or grandchild? Or would it be all relatives except those by marriage? or what?
  • In terms of the result of a trial: relaxat and cremat en estàtua? Is relaxat acquitted or is it some kind of foregiveness after conviction? And cremat en estàtua (literally "burned in statute"): does this, in practice, mean anything other than burned alive?

- Jmabel | Talk 05:14, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • cremat en estàtua --> burnt at the stake, relaxat appears in the Spanish Inquisition article as relaxation, but I've never heard the time elsewhere in English; not sure if it's a calque from Spanish or not, but it appears to be widespread (13K hits in google) El gruix de is an expression meaning the bulk of / the majority of. I'm wondering about the als. myself as it appears quite a bit. -Yupik 09:26, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I apologize, I believe that cremat en estàtua might actually refer to burning effigies of people who have escaped (cf. p. 10 of the PDF at Seacex).
Effigy seems to be the right one based on the definition in El diccionari del Institut d'Estudis Catalans: Cremar en estàtua: cremar la imatge d'un reu per no haver pogut agafar-lo. This seems to be done when the convicted individual dies before being able to be burned alive or if the person is convicted in absentia. -Yupik 16:36, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Orella Alta i Baixa doesn't have to mean necessarily anything. You are right, the only possible translation is "Ear" as to how different groups came to be labeled as High Ear and Low Ear to me is an (inessential) mistery. As Yupik says, gruix translates as bulk, in other words, yes, the numbers. First time I see the "als" thing...still it seems quite clear that it does equate to a.k.a (als el Rabí, etc). As for the familiars directes...it is difficult because this doesn't necessarily refer to the modern legal Spanish concept. I would say it refers to all the family members living in the same household, any of them (up to three generations). No clue about 'relaxat' in this context nor cremat en estàtua (what Yupik is suggesting makes sense, though). Mountolive 22:51, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]


On the funny ear's question: I've not heard it before, and this expressions are not registered in the two main Catalan online dictionaries: [[1]] and [[2]]. So it should be an extremely local expression. But it makes sense to a Catalan speaker. To lower your ears, to have your ears down... if you observe a dog behaviour you'll know that it is a sign of humility, subordination, surrender... attributes supposed to a modest social class; in contrast of people living life with a "high" ears style! --Joan sense nick 01:34, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Another question: does dijunis mean religious feast days?
  • What about malmesclat?
  • Relaxat still a somewhat open question...

- Jmabel | Talk 06:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have a question about hort and if it refers to just a garden/orchard or if it has a special meaning on Mallorca of more of a countrystyle house? For example S'Hort de Son Caulelles. -Yupik 16:22, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Catalan original refers to l'enderrocament, i sembra de sal, de l'hort on es reunien els conversos. Enderrocament does suggest a house, but sembra de sal more suggests a garden. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:08, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Dijunis --> Dejunis --> fast-days AFAIK. And malmesclar --> to sow discord amongst people. Not sure if it's being used in that sense here though. Relaxar: a) Lliurar el jutge eclesiàstic al secular un reu de pena capital per a la seva execució; cast. relajar. Si saben que algú haje dit que los relaxats per lo Sanct Offici foren condemnats sens culpa, doc. a. 1735 (Hist. Sóller, ii, 971). (http://dcvb.iecat.net/) -Yupik 16:31, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So, just to make sure (in English) that I have this right on relaxar: it would mean a death penalty; the Inquisition would turn the person over to the civil authorities to carry that out. - Jmabel | Talk 03:04, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, "dejunis" is medieval Catalan for fasting days. Malmesclar, also agree with Yupik. As for the "hort", I do think is an orchard, the "enderrocar" would refer to any small "hermitage" (whatever the Jewish name for that is) or very basic facilities in the orchard or simply the stonewall around the orchard. Mountolive 04:42, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Now that I see the word in a more ilustrative context, I think "malmesclar" has a different meaning here. Malmesclar means, literally, "ill-mixing", from the sentence in the Cremadissa section "being accused of malmesclar" referred to a Xueta who married a Catholic woman, it looks like it is some derogatory word used by the Xueta community to designate marrying a gentile. Mountolive | Talk 21:17, 18 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • So "accused him of having made an inappropriate match"? - 06:52, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
"Inappropriate match" sounds to me like a latter day euphemism, and a very vague one. I would just go and briefly explain that Jewish, due to religious reasons, did not want to interbreed outside of their own community. Mountolive | Talk 07:37, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. -Yupik 09:45, 18 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • We now have "It is in this context that in 1808 the soldiers mobilized to go to the front, accused the Xuetes of being responsible for that, and assaulted the Segell district." Responsible for what? I find the original Catalan equally vague: "…és en aquest context que el 1808 els soldats mobilitzats per anar al front, acusen als xuetes de ser-ne els responsables i assalten el Segell." - Jmabel | Talk 06:39, 20 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I translated that assuming that they accused the xuetes of being responsible for their conscription....why did they accused the Jews of that? well, as we know, Jews have been accused of nearly everything, real and sci fi. But, if you don't find this assumption right, just go back in translation and leave it open to see what other suggestions are proposed. As I said, I am not so sure whether I am of help, as my wording may be too clumsy to be helpful, if so, just let me know. Mountolive | Talk 06:52, 20 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'd really like to see a clear reference for this. Given the statement in the previous sentence that the island was dominated by intrasigent supporters of the Old Regime, was there really conscription there in support of the liberal constitutional order? Possibly so (and no wonder it would have been unpopular). - Jmabel | Talk 23:08, 20 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The populace may have been mostly conservative but that doesn't prevent the Gobernador Civil and the rest of institutions from being liberal (as there were no votings back in the day). If there was an outspoken minority of liberal Jews, that would make sense that they were blamed by the populace which found in this the perfect excuse to vent or oppose conscription. Mountolive | Talk 23:25, 20 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I read again the original Catalan "els soldats mobilitzats per anar al front, acusen als xuetes de ser-ne els responsables i assalten el Segell" and now I am sure that the suggested translation is good.
"-ne" is a distinctive Catalan pronoun which substitutes previous statements, without the pronoun "-ne", it would read "els soldats mobilitzats per anar al front, acusen als xuetes de ser responsables de ser mobilitzats per anar al front i assalten el Segell". So no worries about this one. I got you covered. Mountolive | Talk 08:49, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Identity today

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I know the article is in progress, so don't bother replying to this now, but, just for when the moment arrives, I believe the article is overstating the importance of the Xueta group nowadays. The fact that there are some associations doesn't mean that they are widely popular amongst those Xueta descendents who, mostly, don't feel any particular emotion related to their ancestry, neither positive nor negative. These associations gather those who are particularly interested in history (not many, unfortunatelly), for the most part, people nowadays couldn't care less about Xueta ancestry or gentile one.

If we agreed with this, then the population 18,000 figure should be nuanced as "people with Xueta ancestry nowadays" or, even better, provide an approximate figure of the real Xuetes back in the day, along with the estimated year for that guessing. Otherwise it misleads to think that there are 18,000 people who identify themselves as Xuetas, which is not true, not even in a secondary or tertiary level of self-identification. Mountolive 05:04, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Still to be reviewed later, when translation has been accomplished: I added Hebrew in the template as a language spoken by the Xuetes. It goes without saying that I am referring to the historical Xuetes, none of the descendants nowadays speak that language. In other words: I regard the template as speaking of the historic Xuetes but, as per above, I am not sure anymore whether the article is taking for granted that this group exists as such today, which it doesn't, that would be a serious flaw. Mountolive | Talk 17:43, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reos Relaxados

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I know what this means, but does anyone have a better way of translating it then executed convicts? And the REA gives the following definition for relajar: 5. tr. Der. Dicho de un juez eclesiástico: Entregar al secular un reo digno de pena capital.. Still haven't managed to find it in English, though as anything else besides "relaxed". -Yupik 19:17, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Meanings #5 and #6 are obviously the ones which interest us here. The rough translation of meaning #5 is when a religious tribunal (like the one of the Inquisition we are discussing here) hands to a civil one a person who is "digno" of being executed. The "digno" (which roughly translates as "deserving" here) is confusing, because he may be deserving death sentence but, at least in this definition, it is not saying that he is effectively senteced to death. I wonder whether this is just a previous step because, for some reason, death penalties are reserved only to the civil tribunal? ¿?
But then meaning #6, also a legal one, makes it harder to precise, because in this sense, it means actually alleviating a sentence (as the word itself suggests)
In other words...I don't have a %&#@ clue! But the word doesn't seem so relevant and maybe that small part could be simply skipped to avoid the risk of making a mistake, don't you think? Mountolive | Talk 05:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
what about this new clue? Mountolive | Talk 05:50, 20 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Well. A wonderful demonstration of why this is so confusing to us native English speakers. - Jmabel | Talk 18:36, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What remains to be done

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  • "en hores baixes": I say "at a low ebb" or simply "in decline". Any other thoughts?
Either is perfectly fine.Mountolive | Talk 07:58, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I like "in decline" personally. -Yupik 12:46, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Done, I believe. - Jmabel | Talk 19:18, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "some Jews of Livorno li havien demanat referències sobre the Jews of Mallorca": I would think I understand it literally ("had asked for references about"), but that doesn't make much sense to me in the context.
Reports? -Yupik 20:27, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'd say it just means they made some inquires regarding a few Jew families in Mallorca. The rationale behind this obscure line would be that, in a conspiracy-prone environment, this mere request for reports may had seem enough "evidence" to track some so called Jewish plot. Mountolive | Talk 07:58, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Inquiries is a better way of saying it. -Yupik 12:46, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, Mountolive, you will probably want to know that in English the adjectival form is "Jewish". "Jew" as an adjective is actually rather offensive in English. I realize that as a non-native speaker there was no reason for you to know this, but you could get yourself in trouble with this one someday. - Jmabel | Talk 05:00, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oh God, my sincere apologies for the really bad choice of words: obviously there was no offense meant to anybody. If it wasn't for you I'd keep "malmesclant" if you may ;) these two words and, as you say, I may be gotten wrong. Thanks a lot again. Mountolive | Talk 05:22, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Done, I believe. - Jmabel | Talk 19:18, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a youth of some 17 years que es feia dir Isaac López": "who was known as", "whom they referred to as"?
That they called? -Yupik 20:27, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The closest I know in English would be "who styled himself as". I think the "styling" thing is restricted to monarchies and the like but, in any case, the point here is that he was pushing to be called Isaac (a Jewish name) vs. his original baptism Christian name. Mountolive | Talk 07:58, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Probably "who went by the name of" or "who called himself". "Styled" does have a noble/aristocratic connotation. - Jmabel | Talk 05:00, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Probably "who called himself" is the best, as it was he who "es feia dir". Mountolive | Talk 05:22, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with the choice of "who called himself". -Yupik 12:46, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Done, I believe. - Jmabel | Talk 19:18, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "s'havia d'ingressar en moneda circulant": I'd guess "they had to be paid in actual currency"
I'd suggest "cash" Mountolive | Talk 07:58, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"Cash" is too informal. "Currency" has roughly the same connotation as efectiu, which seems about right to me. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:00, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What about "circulating currency"? -Yupik 12:46, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Done, I believe. I used "actual currency" on first use, and "hard cash" on the other. This uses the more formal term when we refer to the law, and the less formal when we refer to complaints about the law. - Jmabel | Talk 19:18, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "according to a protest of the Gran i General Consell, no hi havia tant de numerari on the entire island." Anything particular to do with Gran i General Consell? And can we just translate no hi havia tant de numerari as "there was not that much currency"?
What about "there was not that much hard cash on the entire island"? -Yupik 20:27, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Yupik Mountolive | Talk 08:03, 24 February 2007 (UTC).[reply]
ps. Gran i General Consell is, as per ca.wiki: "Gran i General Consell era el màxim òrgan políticoadministratiu i de representació del Regne de Mallorca".
Perhaps that should be the next article we translate? -Yupik 12:46, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • We still need to decide what to do with malmesclat, as discussed above.
Still open, let's discuss it below. - Jmabel | Talk 19:18, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "While el capítol processal still had not closed, the Inquisition inicià i, finalment suspengué, uns quants procediment contra persones denunciades pels acusats by the autos de fe of 1691, the majority dead, únicament es realitzà an auto de fe in 1695 against 11 dead people and one living woman (who was reconciled)." For el capítol processal: perhaps "the period of the trials"? "contra persones denunciades pels acusats by the autos de fe" maybe ==> "against people denounced by those already accused in the autos de fe? "únicament es realitzà an auto de fe" maybe ==> "there was a single auto de fe"? Clearly some help is needed here.
all of your guessings above sound correct to me except the first one. I'd (not literally) translate the intro something like "as the trials were still going on, the Inquisition opened and, eventually, closed, a few trials against people..." to make it flow, I would just remove the inessential "as the trials were still going on" and simply start with "The Inquisition...". Mountolive | Talk 08:40, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
While the proceedings were/case was? still ongoing, the Inquisition started, and eventually finished, proceedings against some of the people denounced by those already accused in the autos de fe of 1691. With the majority of the accused already dead, a single auto-de-fe <some verb I can't think of: realitzar> against 11 of the deceased and 1 woman still living, who ended up being reconciled. -Yupik 12:46, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I ended up dropping the leading phrase, at Mountolive's suggestion, but if someone wants to do something with it, feel free. As for realitzà, probably "was brought" or "took place". I'm going with the former, but if someone prefers the latter, feel free. - Jmabel | Talk 19:18, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "la por generalitzada": is this just "in general"?
"por" in Catalan is a false friend for Spanish speakers as it means "fear". Here it means "widespread fear". Mountolive | Talk 07:58, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oooh. Thanks. Again, my lack of comfort in Catalan shows. - Jmabel | Talk 05:00, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Done
  • In translating a title, we need to translate the latter part of i siete relaiados solo uvo tres pertinaces.
that's archaic Spanish roughly translating as: from thirty seven "relaxed" there were only three pertinaces..."pertinaz" means something like "staunch" or "stubborn", reluctant to change and adjust to the better judgement, in this context it obviously refers to Jewish refusing to abandon their faith, despite having been "relaxados". Relaxats still remains very obscure to me...maybe some sort of provisional acquittal based on them abhorring from Jewish faith in a public statement?... Mountolive | Talk 08:40, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
For relaxats, maybe "turned over to the civil authorities", which seems to be the heart of the matter? - Jmabel | Talk 05:00, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sure but...well, I just keep mesmerized by the "relax" stem which strongly suggests (also in Spanish/Catalan, specially in this archaic background) some kind of alleviation but, hey, if dictionaries say something else, dictionaries rule. In the rather weird reasoning back in the day it could be understood as "relaxed from life" (sentenced to death) or something... Mountolive | Talk 05:22, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think "turned over to the civil authorities" will have to do as none of us knows if there is a term to refer to this in English with the same stem. -Yupik 12:46, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Tentatively resolved but this whole issue of relaxar might need to be reopened.
  • "atès que alguns fragments escandalitzen": what is atès?
Atès que means "granted/given that", "considering that", "whereas", etc. -Yupik 20:25, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Yupik. "Given that" would be probably the most accurate translation.Mountolive | Talk 07:58, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Done
  • "només s’imposà la renovació de les posteriors a 1645 i per tant the implicated lineages, per practiques judaiques, es limitava als estrictament xuetes." If I understand correctly, "it was no longer required to renovate [the sambenets pertaining to those convicted] after 1645 and therefore the lineages implicitly convicted of judaizing practices were limited to those who were, strictly speaking, Xuetes." Does anyone see this differently?
Your guessing is good, but it is just the other way around: it was only mandatory the renovation of those post-1645 (because the previous implicated far too many lineages, some of them noble ones and after that date, they were only for sure Xuetes).Mountolive | Talk 08:40, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Done, per your explanation.
  • As discussed above, we need to decide what to do with reos relaxados.
Reos still an open issue, see below. - Jmabel | Talk 19:18, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "i escalivats de la requisa econòmica": requisa econòmica is obviously "economic wealth"; I don't know escalivats.
Escalivar is "to punish someone harshly or severely"; "to teach a lesson to s.o." or it's more normal meaning of "to cook something in embers". Requisa is "requisition" or "seizing" of something. So I would say "and were harshly punished(?) by the requistion of their wealth/money/some other word". -Yupik 20:25, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've ended up with "Now, deprived of their religious network, and their fortunes having been requisitioned". - Jmabel | Talk 19:18, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Done, I believe - Jmabel | Talk 23:47, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The episode of the "capellà Mosca"" was emblematic: desprès de diversos intents aconseguí un púlpit on predicar a St. Felip Neri": the basic meaning is clear, but who made several attempts and then preached at St. Felip Neri? And did they simply seize the pulpit and preach from it, or were they permitted by someone against the wishes of others?
Capellà Mosca did those attempts and preached the teachings of St. Felip Neri ("predicar a" doesn't translate as "preach at" here). I can't see well the point of this part in the original Catalan, I am missing some part. I am guessing that capellà Mosca was a Xueta in stricto sensu (i.e. no longer of Jewish faith), he actually was a Catholic preacher, preaching the teachings of St. Felip Neri, but the populace knew he was from Xueta lineage which eventually provoked the assault at his pulpit. Mountolive | Talk 08:40, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So is capellà here "chaplain", same as capellàn?
Yes, sir. Mountolive | Talk 05:22, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
But I'm still not sure what to do with the rest of this. - Jmabel | Talk 05:47, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is just obscure in the original Catalan as well: capellà Mosca appears out of nowhere and we don't know why his pulpit is assaulted etc. As I say above, I suspect the reason is he being of Xueta ancestry (his pulpit was burnt in order to get "purified") but, again, is not clear. It doesn't look as such an essential part of the text anyway, I guess nothing really would happen to the article if this episode was skipped...Mountolive | Talk 06:18, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
OK. Let's drop it. [DONE]. - Jmabel | Talk 23:43, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "s’ha integrat en la Xarxa de Juderies": what is integrat here? And I don't really get the connotations in this context of Xarxa de Juderies.
"integrat" here means "became a part of" the Xarxa of Juderies. Xarxa means "net", juderies "jewish ghettoes". I leave the final redaction to the real mccoy anglo Mountolive | Talk 07:58, 24 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
incorporated into? -Yupik 12:46, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Let's take this one up below. - Jmabel | Talk 19:18, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In short, other than my suggestions here, I've hit the wall. Someone else needs to take the next step. - Jmabel | Talk 19:04, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the many replies. I'll do what I can with these. - Jmabel | Talk 05:00, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
These would be easier to reply to btw if they were stuck under separate headers. At least I've gotten totally confused trying to reply to these :D -Yupik 12:46, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Another round

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I've done my best to integrate what I could from the discussion above. A few issues remain open; I think it's simplest to start a new section, even though some of these are discussed above.

  • We still need to work out just what relaxat means. Apparently, it always means "turned over to civil authorities", but it only sometimes means "to be killed". Any help sorting this out will be appreciated.
  • We still have to work out what we want to do with malmesclat. I understand the compunctions about something as weak as "made an inappropriate marriage", but "married outside the faith" seems wrong, too, because the Xuetes were, nominally at least, Catholics.
    • What about "married a non-Xueta"? -Yupik 20:00, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Some mention should be done about this marrying outside the community as a religious taboo, which is what lies behind "malmesclar" Mountolive | Talk 20:39, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'm going for "censured him for having married someone not of Jewish ancestry". - Jmabel | Talk 00:09, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • I don't wanna be no stickler here but the fact that they are using a distinctive an original term "malmesclar" strongly suggests that "marrying someone not of Jewish ancestry" was a standard, if not crime, at least offense, for the Majorcan Jews which had even coined its own verb ("malmesclar"). In other words, I think this cultural fact is worth noting and the present redaction is kind of whitewashing, don't you think? Mountolive | Talk 01:10, 28 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • That's not really clear. I'd love to find a clear source on this. Right now, what I've written is safe, even if the truth might be something even stronger. It's always frustrating that the Catalan and Spanish Wikipedias have such vague citation. I suppose someone really should, at some point, start providing inline citations, but it almost certainly won't be me. - Jmabel | Talk 17:39, 19 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am not sure what to do with the intial phrase in "únicament es realitzà an auto de fe in 1695 against 11 dead people and one living woman (who was reconciled).
  • What about reos? Is it just people who were brought to trial?
  • Except in titles of works, we should probably be consistent about using either gramalletes or sambenets after first mention. Right now, we mix them almost randomly. Is one of these to be preferred?
  • I'm still not sure I get desprès de diversos intents aconseguí un púlpit on predicar a St. Felip Neri. Is it "after several attempts, he obtained a pulpit from which to preach the words of St. Felip Neri"? I'm still quite lost on what all this is about. I know nothing about St. Felip Neri other than there being a plaza named after him in the Barri Gòtic of Barcelona. By the way, he probably deserves an article, given that he is apparently a Catholic saint.
    • He has an article as far as I know: Philip Neri, but I'm no expert on saints, so it might be someone different. -Yupik 20:00, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Jmabel translation is correct. Still, as per my comments above, it is obscure in the original Catalan why he got his pulpit burnt, maybe because he was a Catholic Xueta? The fact that he was preaching St. Felip Neri I believe is inessential, he could be preaching St. Vicent Ferrer or any of these latter saints who were in turn preachers themselves. I'd simply remove this excerpt from the translation-. Mountolive | Talk 20:43, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I still don't know what to do with la Ciutat de Palma s’ha integrat en la Xarxa de Juderies. Yes, I believe I understand each word individually; I just can't make any sense of what it says has occurred.
  • Still not sure what to do with Gran i General Consell. I know what it means, just not what to say in English.

- Jmabel | Talk 05:47, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And once we deal with those last few details

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I think we should move the current article to Xueta/old and add a {{mergeto}} on it, and move this to Xueta and add a {{mergefrom}}. I'll cross-list this proposal at Talk:Xueta, but suggest that the discussion happen here, since this is obviously more active at the moment. - Jmabel | Talk 05:47, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. And we may want to do a speedy merge, since this article seems quite better than the old one. Mountolive | Talk 19:12, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Some external links that deal with this subject (even though I'm sure you've all seen these already):

Some of the terminology became clearer when I read those articles, but the "relax" issue is still open. -Yupik 20:19, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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