Talk:World War II casualties/Archives/2009/September

casualties of sowjetunion

numbers from krivosheev. how much battles showed that his numbers are too low? there a much battle where german took more POWS than krivosheev gave total casualties. krivosheev is at least discussable. so many historian who worked on specific battles like glantz found out that krivosheev numbers are wrong! because of various reasons. krivosheev numbers should be used only as the lowest possible figure. for example the german office for military study first checked the book of krivosheev and started to translate. they wanted to publish in german. after they checked the figures they found out that they are prooven as to low. they stoped for publishing the book in german. but for english wiki its the major source -.- -- HROThomas (talk) 00:46, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

The numbers for USSR military casualties are a range from 8.7 million to 10.7 million. Read the footnote.--Woogie10w (talk) 01:10, 1 September 2009 (UT

Military losses from 1939-1945, totaling 10.7 million, include 7.7 million killed or missing in action and 2.6 million POW dead, out of 5.7 million total POW captured, plus 400,000 paramilitary and Soviet partisan losses.^{3, 20-21}
The official Russian Ministry of Defense figure for military deaths from 1941-1945 is 8,668,400; including 6,330,000 killed in action or died of wounds and 556,000 dead from non-combat causes^7,85 plus an estimated 500,000 MIA and 1,283,000 POW dead out of 4,059,000 total POW captured ^7,236 These figues do not include additional casualties in 1939-40, which totaled 136,945: Battle of Khalkhin Gol in 1939 (8,931); Invasion of Poland of 1939 (1,139); and the Winter War with Finland (1939-40) (126,875).^7,51-80
The estimate by western historians of Soviet military POW deaths is about 3 million out of 5.7 million total POWs in German hands[1].^{17, Table A} Richard Overy has noted that " The official figures themselves must be viewed critically, given the difficulty of knowing in the chaos of 1941 and 1942 exactly who had been killed, wounded or even conscripted".^21,XV The official Russian statistics for military dead do not include an additional estimated 1,500,000 conscripted reservists missing or killed before being listed on active strength, as well as an estimated 150,000 militia and 250,000 Soviet partisan dead, which are considered civilian war losses in the official figures.--Woogie10w (talk) 01:16, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

i read the note. and solokov estimates more than 20 milion, other estimate 17 million and others estimate 13 millions. -- HROThomas (talk) 17:52, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

krivosheev is proven wrong. hes to low, thats an accepted fact. his research is good but the archivs are no accurate. so number of 8,7 is impossible . so no need to take this number? why taking a number which is impossible ? when we know that his numbers dont include conscripted reserves and miltia and partisans , then is unclever to mention the 8.7 as an possible number because its NOT. -- HROThomas (talk) 17:57, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Right now we list Krivosheev's figures and we point out that his figures are disputed. We note that the Krivosheev figures are disputed because they don't include conscripted revervists. You wrote solokov estimates more than 20 milion That figure includes civilians as well as military dead. Do you have the Krivosheev book? If you do we can do some math together.--Woogie10w (talk) 18:23, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

We must list Krivosheev's figures because on Wikipedia we must list disputed sources and list nature of the dispute. The readers must decide, not the editors.--Woogie10w (talk) 18:25, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

You wrote krivosheev is proven wrong. hes to low, thats an accepted fact List your source and the page. I need to verify your statement. --Woogie10w (talk) 18:42, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

iam not saying solokov is correct. krivosheev dont include these conscrips, so hes to low. everyone know this, we need no sources for this because its well known fact. when krivosheev dont includes this conscripted then u cant take his numbers for MILITARY DEATH , logic isnt it? 8.7 is too low. glantz disputes him frieser disputes him , nearly all historians which deal with one single battle point out that krivoheeh is too low. -- HROThomas (talk) 20:13, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

You write we need no sources. Encyclopedic content must be verifiable. On Wikipedia we MUST have sources for material that is disputed. All unsourced material will be deleted. --Woogie10w (talk) 20:18, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Please Read this important Wikipedia statement of policy Wikipedia:Verifiability We must list sources, no exceptions Thank you--Woogie10w (talk) 20:21, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed--Woogie10w (talk) 20:24, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Glantz , when titan clashes , Glantz Operationmars a epic desaster. Frieser Das deustche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg Band 8 . Solokov .and so on and so on -- HROThomas (talk) 20:25, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

the german office for military study, checked the book of krivosheev , first they wanted to translate in german and publish, after they checked it they find out that krivosheevs figures are to low , so they decided not to publish his book in german. -- HROThomas (talk) 20:29, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Glantz , When Titans Clash - Glantz uses the Krivosheev numbers- The are cited in detail by Glantz- I own the book, Glantz does not support your argument. --Woogie10w (talk) 20:42, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

By the way I agree with you that Krivosheev's figures are too low, but we must include them as well as the higher figures cited by Erlikman in the footnotes.--Woogie10w (talk) 20:44, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Do you have the Krivosheev book?--Woogie10w (talk) 20:47, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Do you read Russian?--Woogie10w (talk) 20:48, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Glantz DO NOT SUPPORT KRIVOSHEEV he uses his numbers but brings his own because he thinks krivosheev is too low. look Glantz operation mars. i brought more than 1 historian which states krivosheev is too low even the the office for miltary sutdy of germany is that opinion. -- HROThomas (talk) 20:59, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

On what page does Glantz say that he thinks krivosheev is too low. --Woogie10w (talk) 21:03, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

when he discusses the losses. krivo gives 70000 dead and glantz says thats to low. i dont now the page because i dont own the book i lend it. by the way its not only glantz.... -- HROThomas (talk) 21:16, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

In other words you cannot cite a source, you have no source for your POV. Your statement 70000 dead and glantz says thats to low Glantz refers to only one battle, not total war casualties--Woogie10w (talk) 21:20, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

can u read? i provided without looking 3 historians who say hes too low + a whole group of historian of an office ? are u bias? when glantz for example says the casualties are wrong how can the complete casualties fit? frieser mention more then 10 battles with to low numbers. check my arguments before u write something. -- HROThomas (talk) 21:24, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

You do not cite the source and page and give a quote of text . You have no source, just your POV. Cite the page and quote the text.--Woogie10w (talk) 21:29, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

HOW CAN KRIVOS NUMBERS BE CORRECT WHEN HE USED RUSSIAN ARCHIVES ???? THE RUSSIAN ARCHIVES ARE INCOMPLETE . even 7 year old child will understand that u cant get the right solution with wrong addend -- HROThomas (talk) 21:29, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

YOU NEED TO CITE SOURCES FOR YOUR STATEMENTS- This is Wikipedia not a Blog.--Woogie10w (talk) 21:33, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg Band 8 page 153 : " In diesem Zusammenhang soll nich unerwähnt bleiben, daß das Militärgeschichtliche Forschungsamt das von krivosheev herrausgegebene Buch "grif sekretnoski snjat" sehr euphorisch aufnahm und es ins deutsche übersetzten lie?. Von der beabsichtigen Publizierung wurde jedoch wieder Abstand genommen, da sich viele Verlustangaben als eindeutig zu niedrig erwiesen. Das liegt weniger beim russischen Herrasugeber als vielmehr in den Mängeln des Meldesystem der Roten Armee...." -- HROThomas (talk) 21:35, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

U ALREADY HAVE SOURCES IN THE WIKI WHICH SAY KRIVO DOES NOT INCLUDE CONSCRIPED RESERVES. HELLO OPEN YOUR EYES -- HROThomas (talk) 21:36, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

YES IN THE FOOTNOTE FOR THE USSR ON WW2 Casualties page!!--Woogie10w (talk) 21:39, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

READ THE FOOTNOTE ON THE USSR. READERS ARE CLEARLY INFORMED THAT KRIVOSHEVS FIGURES ARE DISPUTED. Richard Overy has noted that " The official figures themselves must be viewed critically, given the difficulty of knowing in the chaos of 1941 and 1942 exactly who had been killed, wounded or even conscripted".^21,XV The official Russian statistics for military dead do not include an additional estimated 1,500,000 conscripted reservists missing or killed before being listed on active strength, as well as an estimated 150,000 militia and 250,000 Soviet partisan dead, which are considered civilian war losses in the official figures. ^{3, 20-21}--Woogie10w (talk) 21:43, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Readers see the Krivosheev figure and informed why it is being disputed.--Woogie10w (talk) 21:46, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Krivosheev is prooven wrong-- HROThomas (talk) 21:56, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Note well this Wikipedia guideline:

Neutrality requires that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. Now an important qualification: In general, articles should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views; generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all. For example, the article on the Earth does not mention modern support for the Flat Earth concept, the view of a distinct minority.

We both agree that Krivosheev is wrong, we have presented his figures and let readers know why his figures are disputed--Woogie10w (talk) 22:03, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Can you read Russian?--Woogie10w (talk) 22:05, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

i cant read russian. krivosheev is not disputed hes prooven wrong he dont include conscripted -- HROThomas (talk) 22:15, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

ok u said hes wrong i didnt saw this -- HROThomas (talk) 22:42, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Alles klar, wir haben diese sache totschlagen!!--Woogie10w (talk) 22:49, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

diese Sache tot geschlagen -- HROThomas (talk) 22:51, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

maybe +10,7 would be good.. -- HROThomas (talk) 23:02, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

10.7 is there already with sources--Woogie10w (talk) 23:08, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

ich geb auf -- HROThomas (talk) 23:16, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Mir auch, genug davon!!--Woogie10w (talk) 23:21, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Correct data entry

The figure shown in the last column for New Zealand death rates is incorrect (0.07%). The correct figure as computed from the data in the other columns is 0.73%.

Chimaman (talk) 10:05, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Albania

there are 28,000 deaths in Albania, and all jews were save. [of Jews in Albania]

There was an error: the Jews were about 200, but no one was killed. While there are no precise statistics, the victims of war in Albania was around 28,000 ( without distinguish soldiers from civilians).

--Dessy-The Hero's Land (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Albania

there are 28,000 deaths in Albania, and all jews were save. [of Jews in Albania]

There was an error: the Jews were about 200, but no one was killed. While there are no precise statistics, the victims of war in Albania was around 28,000 ( without distinguish soldiers from civilians).

--Dessy-The Hero's Land (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

In April 1944, 300 Jews were placed in the Pristina prison, mainly refugees in Kosovo, followed by a few hundred more within the next months. Ultimately, 400 of these Jews were transported to Bergen-Belsen in the summer of 1944, where only 100 people survived. jewishvirtuallibrary [2]--Woogie10w (talk) 14:20, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Note well, Holocaust victims are counted not by nationality, but by place of residence in the war. For example most of the 80,000 French Holocaust victims were refugees from Nazi Germany and Poland, not French citizens--Woogie10w (talk) 14:25, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Forgive me, I missed the link. The data are for the Jews in Yugoslavia, not Albania. In Albania (Kingdom of Albania) were saved 200 jews.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/949323.html http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/08/30/albanian-muslims-who-rescued-jews/

They were resident in Albania. For example Jewish US citizens were resident in Germany. They are counted as German Holocaust victims.The Source Martin Gilbert lists them with Albania, not Yugoslavia--Woogie10w (talk) 18:52, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Forgive me, there was my mistake doing copy-paste with links.

--Dessy-The Hero's Land (talk) 14:46, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

In Albania all 200 jews survived, in Yugoslavia (including Kosovo) not, but I'm talking only about the albanian state.

--Dessy-The Hero's Land (talk) 14:52, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

They were resident in Albania. For example Jewish US citizens were resident in Germany. They are counted as German Holocaust victims.The Source Martin Gilbert lists them with Albania, not Yugoslavia Another example is the Netherlands, about 1/3 of the Dutch Holocaust victims were refugees from other countries, not the Netherlands. Holocaust victims were counted NOT by nationality, but by country of residence. All sources listing Holocaust victims count by country of residence NOT nationality--Woogie10w (talk) 18:56, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

No reliable statistics on Albania's wartime losses exist, but the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration reported about 30,000 Albanian war dead, 200 destroyed villages, 18,000 destroyed houses, and about 100,000 people left homeless. Albanian official statistics claim somewhat higher losses Source: Albania : a country study Federal Research Division, Library of Congress ; edited by Raymond E. Zickel and Walter R. Iwaskiw. 2nd ed. 1994 ISBN 0-8444-0792-5. Available online at Federal Research Division of the U.S. Library of Congress Library of Congress Country Study (see section The Communist Takeover of Albania) --Woogie10w (talk) 19:09, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

All jews in Albania were saved

http://ddata.over-blog.com/xxxyyy/0/19/69/68/jewish-survival-in-albanie.pdf http://blog.aacl.com/albanians-and-jews-by-shirley-cloyes-dioguardi/ http://www.hmh.org/ex_show.asp?id=86 http://www.zeqaj.com/shqiponja/Jewish%20Survival%20in%20Albania.htm http://www.scribd.com/doc/13968790/NAZIsJEWSholocaustSAVERS

The number of Jews in Albania at the beginning of the war, was 200. This is the number of Jews within the borders of Albania as a state, I am not referring to the Albanian population in the Balkans. The source is probably false because the Jews in Albania may not be killed to 100%, when the sites I linked say it is the only country in Europe where the Jews were rescued.

--Dessy-The Hero's Land (talk) 19:47, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Blog is NOT a reliable source for Wikipedia--Woogie10w (talk) 20:32, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

French Holocaust victims were foriegn Jews resident in France, NOT French Jewish citizens. Tha same applies to Albania. Read the footnote. --Woogie10w (talk) 20:35, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

The Oxford Companion to World War II also states that 200 Albanian Jews were murdered (page 286). Nick-D (talk) 23:06, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

In Albania the number of jews derths is irregular because albanian people defent jews bay SS and Germany. In 1938 the kingdom of Albanian Zog I have +200 jews in this number is Albert Eistan and in 1945 Albania have +700 jews.