Talk:Woluwe-Saint-Pierre

This article relates to Brussels, and should follow the Brussels naming conventions.

Names survey, result

Between 23 December 2006 and 28 January 2007 there has been a survey about which names the articles for the municipalities in the Brussels region should have. The municipalities in question have different names in French and Dutch, the two official languages of the region. A majority of contributors to the survey prefers using one single same over using both names in the title. This single name should follow English usage, which has been determined using domain specific Google searches.

The final result of the survey is that:

for the following municipalities the French name has been chosen, in line with the most commonly used names in English:
for the following municipalities no significant preference in the English language has been found. After discussion, the Dutch names have been chosen:
- Sint-Jans-Molenbeek
- Sint-Agatha-Berchem

Details about the survey can be found at Talk:Brussels-Capital Region/NamingArchive3. Markussep 18:38, 1 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

1st line

Sorry, nothing to do with any language preferences, but where the article name is already decided, this should be the 1st on the order of the 1st line. All respect to the Vlams name and history (I used to live happily in Zaventem), but it just looks illogical and wrong to have inconsistencies between the article name and Introduction. I think Talk:Brussels-Capital Region/NamingArchive3 applies here also. --83.170.113.250 (talk) 08:59, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's part of the compromise that when the French name is chosen as article name, the Dutch name is put first in line. (et vice versa if the Dutch name is chosen).--Westermarck (talk) 04:55, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Could you point out where we can find details about the compromise you wrote about, and what were the arguments for it? Generally speaking, I'd prefer the name used in the title (which should be the most commonly used name in English) to be used throughout the article (unless for example the historical context of a section dictates otherwise), with alternatives given in parentheses, as stated in the WP:NCGN guideline. Markussep ^Talk 07:53, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See Talk:Brussels-Capital_Region/NamingArchive3.--Westermarck (talk) 15:13, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I see it has been proposed there to show the Dutch name first if the French one is the title (Fram did so, 13:15, 3 January 2007), but I don't recall a decision to actually do that. But correct me if I'm wrong. Markussep ^Talk 15:47, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is just wrong if the name of the article is decided, that is the form the 1st line must take. WP:NCGN states this quite clearly. Of course any any Flem will get riled by this but this is an English language wikipeida, let the anglophones decide and stop trying to force your VB politics on us. We deal with facts, not opinions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.179.250.186 (talk) 19:51, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I found the proposed Wikipedia:WikiProject Belgium/Brussels naming conventions, I suppose that's what Westermarck meant. Instead of edit warring, I think it's better to revive that discussion, and see if a consensus can be found about naming issues. Surely the Brussels naming conventions shouldn't violate conventions like WP:UE and WP:NCGN. Markussep ^Talk 08:16, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Things are simple : respect command to use first the french names because th majority of inhabitants of Brussels municipalities are french-speaking people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vania lahtoh (talk • contribs) 12:37, 13 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And the majority of inhabitants of Belgium speak Dutch. So OK, lets move Liège to Luik. I hope you realize that such an argument is nonsense

Brussels is billingual. Half of the Flemish population works in Brussels. Wikipedia must show that in Brussels Dutch and French are equally official. It was part of the compromise that if the French name is chosen the Dutch name is put first in the introduction (et vice versa off course).--Westermarck (talk) 14:11, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No. It is nothing to do with who lives there, it is a matter of what the majority of English call it. The French use the name "Londres" not London, and have Londres as the first name in the first line on the fr wiki. Then any article in WIkipedia should be consistent with the naming as it is in the article. WP:PLACE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.167.116.2 (talk) 16:12, 13 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Brussels municipalities (except for Brussels itself) do not have English names. So that argument is not helping the discussion. It is pointless to consider Auderghem as an English name (actually it's silly to consider it as a French name aswell but that's another story).

It's quite simple. Brussel is a bilingual city but in the middle of Flemish Brabant. Brussel has always been a Brabantic city where the population spoke Brabantic (a Dutch/Flemish dialect)and the big shots French, as was common all around Europe. In fact, they spoke French at the English courts and this is why many international cities are known by their French names. For example Vienna instead of Wien, Cologne instead of Koeln, etc.

The different municipalities in Brussel though are too small to have traditionally been mentioned much in French by the European courts. Waterloo for example was always a Flemish community and the name is of Dutch/Flemish origin. Sint-Pieters-Woluwe is named after Saint Peter and the river Woluwe, a river whose name is of Flemish origin. The only acceptable way of writing the communities in Brussel is as following Anderlecht, Brussel, Elsene, Etterbeek, Evere, Ganshoren, Jette, Koekelberg, Oudergem, Schaarbeek, Sint-Agatha-Berchem, Sint-Gillis, Sint-Jans-Molenbeek, Sint-Joost-ten-Node, Sint-Lambrechts-Woluwe, Sint-Pieters-Woluwe, Ukkel, Vorst, Watermaal-Bosvoorde. Another option, which I'd prefer is "Flemish name/French name" in that order. Unless anyone can give proof that the French way of writing these place names is more common in English I will start reverting. Jorgenpfhartogs (talk) 23:01, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please remember that this is the English wiki and not the Dutch or French and what is important is the usuage in English, not the usage in French or Dutch. Is that simple enough? This is the current consensus and you do not have any consensus to change this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.170.113.250 (talk) 04:23, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any guide in English with Belgian placenames? If so, I haven't found one. How often do English speakers talk about Sint-Pieters-Woluwe or Woluwe-Saint-Pierre? If there's no English name for a place then why use the French name or the Dutch one? Have you ever heard English speakers talk about Ixelles or Elsene? My experience teaches me that most English speakers use the place name as they heard it from a local and since there are more English speakers that speak a bit of French than there are that speak some Dutch they often hear the French names first. So, please prove to me the usage of Elsene or Ixelles in English. Google and Bing maps for example use the Flemish names. When searching for Ixelles you are being directed to Elsene on the map. I do understand this is the English wikipedia so the name as commonly used in English sould be used but where there's no English name the local name should be used. Or would you prefer an anglicised version of Bordeaux? Or what would you call the IJzer? Ieper is called Ypres here because of that's how it became known in the First World war as the local Flemish language was completely ignored. I fully understand when those placenmanes are used in French on the English wikipeida as people have actually heard of those places but hardly anyone in the UK has ever heard of Liège so why is the page called Liège and not Lidje as the locals calls it? There seems to be no clear line for naming pages at all other than the personal preference of a few. Local names are ignored. The official name in Belgium for municipalities in Brussel/Bruxelles is always like that. Im personally don't agree with the name Schaerbeek but the official name in Belgium would be Schaarbeek/Schaerbeek. One can't ignore that and one shouldn't yet that's exactly what is done. One could also call it like the locals do, Schoerebeik, which explains the etymology of the name. Jorgenpfhartogs (talk) 11:49, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore, the German, Indonesian, Dutch, Luxembourgian, Limburgs and even the Breton one use the Dutch name or, more correct, the double name for this article. The Romance languages prefer the French version for obvious reasons. Most people I know talk about Dun Dealgan and not Dundalk so does that mean most English speakers use Dun Dealgan? Unfortunately not, but Dundalk is how it's called by the general English speaking world. Jorgenpfhartogs (talk) 12:13, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Pokflok (talk) 15:01, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Woluwe-Saint-Pierre - Sint-Pieters-Woluwe → Woluwe-Saint-Pierre — This article should follow the Brussels naming conventions. Pokflok (talk) 13:59, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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