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Archive 1

Wolf's Rain or Wolf's Reign

Is the title of the show Wolf's Rain or Wolf's Reign. I've alwas thought it was reign. Reign would make more sence because the show deals a lot about when wolves ruled or reigned over the earth. Wolf's Rain makes no sence. I'm pretty sure there were never any wolves falling from the sky. However, everyone one on Wikipedia seems to think it's Wolf's Rain. So did somebpdy mistype it, is it a bad Japanese translation, or is the show actually called Wolf's Rain?

  • Without spoiling the show, rain plays a certain part in the story. --Anon

I really don't remember rain playing any role in the story, except maybe at the very end, and even that I'm not even sure about. The theme of Paradise being ruled over by the wolves would suggest that the original translators messed up and somehow it was just never caught. I wholly agree with the original poster that Wolf's Reign would make more sense. Then again maybe its a double entendre, but I still don't see how the rain element makes sense. -CwH

Rain plays a very symbolic role in the story. Notice that in this world it never rains except at the end. The world is encased in snow or desert. Wolf's Rain is a reference to the rebirth of the world. When the world is reborn life will be allowed to return as the earth warms and the snow turns into rain. The rain is a result of the wolves. Thus the Wolf's Rain is the rebirth of the world.

If they mean "rain", why is the show called ウルフズ・レイン, Urufuzu Rein and not ウルフズ・雨, Urufuzu Ama. Ama = Rain. --87.168.83.44 —The preceding signed but undated comment was added at 09:04, August 21, 2007 (UTC).

Official sites?

Whats the official site? Can someone post it here? (anon)

Done, some time ago. --Zetawoof 22:19, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Why Does it Need to be Expanded

This page looks pretty complete to me. I don't understand why this article needs to be expanded or needs an expert to look at it. Can someone please get rid of those messages. (anon)

Done, some time ago. --Zetawoof 22:19, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I think it could use some expansion. I came here looking for some explanation of the ending, a plot summary, or anything like that, and didn't find it. :\ --Ryajinor 00:52, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree, it needs expansion, more character info, (ex. Jagara), locations, trivia maybe...Yllianos 06:39, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Spoilers!

There is still a spoiler in Hige's character description (his collar). In addition, there are many details of the setting (or links to new articles) which could be expanded. For example- a description of the Nobles.

A possible solution: expand into "plot summary" or some sort of "development" section. There is no inherent reason for the plot details to be so entangled with the characters. I'm not quite sure what shape thise would take at the moment, or I'd write it right now. --24.4.246.13

Spoiler removed. Going for a full article on some of the setting details would be overkill, but a better description of the setting within the page would be very nice. --Zetawoof 08:24, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Why do you want to remove spoilers, just put up a warning so people who havnt seen the show and dont want to now what happens wont read it.

Errr... this is an encyclopedia, not a message board. Why worry about the spoilers? If people want to read spoilerless commentary about the show they are planning to watch, they should look it up elsewhere! • Ekevu • ♥ • ★ 11:37, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't know about you, but I actually first read the article in an attempt to get some of the names straight, and had some plot points spoiled badly. In any case, a lot of the spoilery information wasn't even marked as such. Zetawoof 03:01, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Do you know I updated the section only to have someone delete everything I wrote. Im VERY UPSET because this person only deleted the additions I wrote. I mean why would someone do that? (FacadeInfinity)--203.112.202.252 17:27, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it should be expanded, for an encyclopedia article about it to not even try explain what the nobles are is a bit silly.

Minor Incorrect Info

Kiba's character description mentions he was hesitant to take wolf form. It was quite the opposite...he was hesistant to take human form. 216.81.36.195

Not so much incorrect as unclear:

Darcia is close to killing Kiba, but instead he tries to open Pardise. It rejects him and he is killed. Kiba wanders around until he cannot walk any further.

Who is it who tries to open Paradise here? If 'he' means Darcia, then the sentence needs to be re-worded to make that clear. If 'he' means Kiba, some explanation of how he wanders around after being killed, and then dies a second time by drowning, would be helpful.

The page for Kiba is nice, but really it is incorrect about quite a few detials such as his character and role in the anime. Also people should make individual pages for the other wolves who are just as, if not even more significant, in the anime.

Negative space

Wow this page has a lot of negative space. Maybe someone should add some more info under the wolves' biographies. Also the humans only have about a sentence or two each, yet they played significant roles in the anime. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.50.179.67 (talk • contribs) .

The space is, unfortunately, necessary - the sections are short enough that, if that space is left out, the images start butting into each other, making things look even worse. Zetawoof(ζ) 06:03, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Why not Class A ?

Err... The article looks great to me, possibly even a GA candidate. Any reason not to promote it to class A ? Renmiri 18:12, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

It's actually not even B-Class. (One measly single in-line citation.) I've demoted it to start. --Kunzite 20:04, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Oh, is that's what's mising ? I'll dig up some more then! On the project I'm in most of our main pages are FA or GA... Renmiri 20:19, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree. This page tells nothing of the depth of the anime itself, and for anyone who watches it: it's a thousand-mile deeep anime just bleeding with symbolism. Only a plotline and some quite lackluster character descriptions, especially once you hit Hige and Toboe. To be honest, if done right and carefully, this show could have a page (and branching pages for perhaps the characters themselves, episodes and the origins of some of the parts of the anime, since it is based off of a true Native American legend) that are just as colorful and descriptive as Samurai Champloo and Naruto. I'd like to do some work on it and help out a bit, but time is not on my side though hopefully it will be sometime in the future. --CMCricket-unregistered 21:55, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I added a lot about the complex symbolism but it was earased by someone...

Because that would be WP:OR--SeizureDog 05:58, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Description of the show

The lead should have an explanation of what the show is actually about. As it stands, somebody who comes here with no prior knowledge won't be able to learn that without delving into the spoiler section. I'd do it, but I've never seen the series. Stilgar135 20:19, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I felt it necessary to add a trivia section, due to the interesting things that occur in the intro and ending.

Vandalism

I noted some vandalism ("It's raining Wolves! aleluiah! it's rainig wolves!!"), and removed it. This was all I spotted, so if anyone see any more, please remove it. I don't have the time right now. DJLarZ 13:44, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

30 OVA episodes?

In infobox I found that exist 26 TV and 30 OVA episodes. It's, how I know, is wrong, becouse are only 4 OVA episodes. Extate 18:04, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

That's definitely wrong - whoever wrote that probably meant 26 TV episodes, and 30 in total. Fixed. Zetawoof(ζ) 21:02, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Are there going to be more episodes?? Does some body know?

No, there aren't.--SeizureDog 20:45, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

PROPAGANDA?!

Why is there a link to the "Propaganda" article at the bottom of the page?

Further explain

Under the Edits section it says "In the beginning of episodes 25 and 26, there was some footage cut out that was very vital to the plot." You might want to expand that. --88wolfmaster 20:46, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Proposed Change to Overview Section

Everyone's thoughts?:

Above is what it would look like. My reasoning is as follows: this section is meant to be an introduction into the story, not a plot summary or theories section. Everyone's thoughts?--88wolfmaster 06:09, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Since no one seemed to object and the article itself called for a revision, i've made a start.--88wolfmaster 01:34, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

revert war

Ganryuu: All I did in the edit you reverted thrice ( was change the wording; the meaning remains the same. I didn't "remove" any information; I changed "must first seek out" to "are said to need". It's the same thing essentially. 128.113.146.138 18:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

"must first seek out" is more descriptive--88wolfmaster 04:07, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay, there is a very slight difference. I left that phrase alone this time. --128.113.149.103 19:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Ganryuu. Dude. You said "Secondly, the term "flower maiden" is an important part of the series and is not a fictional concept within the actual series" in your edit comment. I didn't even touch that part of the article this time. I changed "200" to "two hundred" (Again, WP:DATE#Numbers in words). And for why IMDb link should be there: See reason #3 in WP:LINKS#What should be linked; it has credits information that isn't encyclopedic. TV.com would serve the same purpose; maybe you don't need both but at least one is useful. --128.113.149.103 20:32, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

First of all, the Anime News Network profile page for this series contains far more details and is much more suited to this article rather than IMDB, as this is an article regarding an anime television series, not a movie. Please see WP:EL and refrain from adding unnecessary external links. Secondly, numbers can also been used while describing the series's outline, and this has been prevalent in the article for a long period. You did indeed add apostrophes to the word flower maiden, which also should not be used. Please also see Wikipedia:Civility and refrain from incivil comments. Thank you. ···巌流? · Talk to Ganryuu 20:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Alright, good point on the external link. I wasn't familiar with the ANN; I should have looked at it. As for the quotes on flower maiden, it's the first time the term is introduced in the article. I thought it made more sense to introduce it more cautiously; it didn't imply fictionalization to me. As for 200, though, why can raw numbers "also [be] used while describing the series's outline"? I thought the MoS was straightforward. Numbers are ugly. 'two hundred' is nicer. --128.113.149.103 20:48, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

The term "200" is also used in the Japanese interwiki article for Wolf's Rain, by the way. ···巌流? · Talk to Ganryuu 20:53, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but the Japanese Wikipedia has a separate Manual of Style from the English one's. They're not coordinated and they don't have to be; they're not the same content. 128.113.149.103 20:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Kiba0.jpg

Image:Kiba0.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 22:07, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Plotline of Wolf's Rain

This article really needs a plotline and not just a overview. Different interpretations of the ending are also missing.

Ryuuk 22:36, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Hige.jpg

Image:Hige.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 05:01, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup

This article could use some heavy duty cleanup. The story overview needs to be completely rewritten. It contains unsourced rumors (There have been rumors that the kitten...), personal interpretations of events in the show, and very informal and unencyclopedic language (By looking at it like this, you can pretty much guess what will happen next...) It also sounds argumentative, as if the author is rebutting arguments to some invisible party (Once the wolves and humans defeated the monsters, they created humanity (human society, not human beings) from a part of themselves...)

Many parts of the article also use weasel words to make personal observations and opinions sound factual. Here are some examples, all taken from this article:

It is assumed that it is this way... This could also be a reason why... It is debatable that this might suggest...

This is also carried out through the character overviews, in which an author has DECIDED, and tries to make sound factual with weasel words, which species of wolf each of the characters belong to without citing any sources.

Kiba seems to be an arctic wolf... Tsume seems to be... Hige seems to be... Toboe seems to be... Blue looks to be...

The actual physical description of the wolf form of the character is left out, and substituted by an unsourced guess at its species.

  • The theories and assumptions are given at certain points for character design and species because those details are not given outright. Thus it is only logical that one would hold a theory to describe the direct species each character was fashioned after.Though the word "seems" is rather overused it is the only way for the informer to clarify his/her most logical guess towards that matter without solidifying the statement entirely.Personally I believe that the links to the possible species are helpful and show that the art designers gave thought to more than one breed of wolf to express their characters. For example, in most animes only grey wolves or arctic wolves are used, but the use of Mexican, Arabian, and Eurasian Tundra wolf breeds display thought and research added to this anime.
  • Guesses do not belong in encyclopedias. They belong on fan pages. One can say the Kiba has white fur. One cannot say that he is an arctic wolf or seems to be an arctic wolf unless one has a credible source to back this up.
  • One would assume because he is given a rather stereotypical "wolf build" and has the said white fur that his desired look is that of an arctic wolf. The same with Toboe's Red/Arabian wolf fur length and body shape and Hige's signature Mexican wolf mane and bulk. It is often common sense that guesses are logical. Also, one might note that the anime itself is a rather cryptic story which is fashioned to leave the viewer with their own theories and opinions. Truly, there are hardly many answers given and the audience must fill in the holes. Ergo, so-called "weasel words" are almost appropriate and necessary.

It should be noted... *SPOILER*

somewhere than in the end every single main character died. That is "extremely" rare in any show, even rarer in an anime. It is a spoiler though, so someone should put a spoiler warning before it.

...Including your entry in this talk page! You just spoiled it for me! Adding *SPOILER* to your headline -Dracker 18:19, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but (bigger spoiler) the twist is that they don't stay dead. They all get reincarnated! And in the meantime they all get beautiful death scenes. Lee M 04:21, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a spoiler free zone, so no, it shouldn't be noted. AnmaFinotera (talk) 05:21, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I notice that some of the character descriptions have now been expanded to include details of the characters' deaths, That may be encyclopedic, but it's also taking the "not a spoiler free zone" thing to extremes, apart from being fucking depressing. Lee M (talk) 05:13, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree it is sad. I still cry through all of the OVA episodes, even though I've watched it multiple times. But it is a part of their stories and their reincarnations are also noted in the plot section. The character descriptions need some rewriting, though, which I plan to do over the next two weeks along with a lot of article clean up. If it helps any, the whole character section will probably be moved off to List of Wolf's Rain characters during the clean up/overhaul. AnmaFinotera (talk) 05:35, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that the characters' deaths were unnecessary or badly handled in the series. I thought they were very well done and unbelievably powerful. (Keep telling yourself "It's not real. They're only drawings." Nope. That doesn't work. Poor little Toboe.) Even so, if casual visitors look at the character descriptions and see all the deaths they might decide there's no point watching the series and that'd be a shame. I guess what I'm saying here is that even if Wikipedia isn't a spoiler-free zone, it shouldn't be Spoiler City either. It needs to strike a balance. Lee M (talk) 05:52, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Oh, I agree (Toboe really gets me every time). Still, it is one unfortunately problem sometimes with a show like this with so many deaths. I've had a devil of a time working on Blood+ because I haven't seen the whole series but I've been spoiled to most of the ending because of editing the articles. Still, while it may seem bad for new viewers to the series, it is in keeping with the precedence on other anime series that have deaths at the end. I think moving it to a list of will help, as what will be left here will be a more general discussion, so someone who hasn't seen it would get a general idea without getting the full details. AnmaFinotera (talk) 06:00, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Praise

This is a beautiful, fluid, hopeful story set in a tragic world. Supposedly the end is near and there is a legend that paradise will open up but wolves would be the only ones able to find. The flower maiden (Cheza) is the beacon to lead them to this heaven, however for reasons not explained she is very valuable to humans and wolves alike. The tale follows four young wolves trying to seek out the "flower".

This a great anime. I've seen it inumerable times and I still come back wanting more. The music is haunting and simply gorgeous, and the animation is top notch. Characters develope well and are easy to fall in love with, however at times it can very melonchalic and dreary, but there is real poetry to it your not going to find in any other anima. If you like slapstick comedy this is not the show for you... however if you enjoy deep characters, complex storylines, beautifully rendered animation and music,plenty of bloody fights, joy and saddness, your in for a treat! I give it my highest recomendation! 10/10.

Actually, it's set in Earth's remote past. And it is one of the finest ANIME to appear on TV in a very long time. The integrity of the story was kept in tact! Jason Palpatine 18:39, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
The city that springs up at the end of episode 30 does look a lot like 20th-century Earth. On the other hand, in the "Staff Interviews" section of Disc 2, Masahiko Minami [?says?said] (as translated in the subtitles):
"For one thing, we don't even say if it's the Earth. [...] If we declared it was the future, it would really limit your imagination, because everyone has a somewhat fixed idea of what the future will be like. We wanted to avoid that in this series, so we got rid of all traces of that."
I conclude that Wolf's Rain's universe has no direct connection to our own. -Andrew Nagy 68.39.193.120 21:08, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
There's another scene at the beginning of one of the OVA eps that shows a bridge that looks a lot like it's on modern Earth. I don't remember which ep, but I remember the voice-over being "Paradise is a place that is opened by someone". Maybe the interview took place before whoever the director of that episode was decided differently? --DocumentN 02:16, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
About its location, in many scenes it is clear they drink vodka. In the first scenes of cities there are some signs and bilboards written in russian as well as labels in the vodka bottles. The cold climate, frozen seas, and the constant snow for most of the show leads to believe it developped in Siberia. It could also be the future regarding the kind of technology that is used, very well as it has been stated into some "post apocalyptical time" kept purposedly frozen in their past by the nobles seeking to use the world around them to fulfil their own purposes. -Luis F Lopez —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.118.225.162 (talk) 15:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC).
I can't quite make out what the above comment is saying. --DocumentN 02:16, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
He's arguing that the setting of the film is likely Russia.--SeizureDog 05:30, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
If it's Russia where do the Native American tribe come from? Lee M 04:22, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Trivia

Possible worth mentioning in the article?

  • The AnimeCentral run uses the Japanese title sequences. This seems odd considering that English versions are available, as witness the Bandai DVDs.
  • The closing image of the opening title shows a flower in the rain - compare the closing image of the Cowboy Bebop closing title. Also, the shapes in the final image of the opening title very subtly form the shape of a wolf's head.

Lee M 04:35, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

No, it's trivial and OR.--SeizureDog 08:39, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Absolutely not. Trivia is highly discouraged and the latter is pure OR. AnmaFinotera (talk) 05:33, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
The observation that Bebop and WR use similar imagery is one that anybody could make. I happened to notice it because AnimeCentral showed the two series back to back.
Anyway, who defines what is trivia and what isn't? I suspect that a lot of so-called trivia in WP articles would be overlooked if it was labelled "additional information" or similar. Lee M (talk) 11:18, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Not really. I've seen some of those trivia sections under another label, and also axed them. Most experienced editors are not dumb and can recognize trivia sections trying to hide under other labels. They get tagged and deleted too. Who defines? Generally easy to tell, and when not, MOS, WP:N, WP:V, and sometimes third party views are employed.
Being an observation that "anybody could make" is still original research unless it comes from a WP:Reliable Source (which does not include fan sites). It is not a common fact. AnmaFinotera (talk) 17:42, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Trivia or not, now that the screen cap of the opening title has been posted the wolf's head shape is pretty obvious. Lee M (talk) 04:02, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Um, maybe to you but I don't see any shape of a wolf's head anywhere in that image. AnmaFinotera (talk) 04:15, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, I did say it was subtle (well, OK, as opposed to obvious!)... if you look at the reflections of the skyline in the puddle, most of them appear (to me, at least) to delineate the top of a wolf's neck and head in negative space, looking to the left. There are additional objects at the end of the opening titles like feathers and reflected clouds, that reinforce the image. Now you could say I'm just seeing things, but I'd be very surprised if it wasn't intentional, especially since the series is about wolves that can disguise themselves. Lee M (talk) 04:33, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Maybe. I don't see it myself, though, and neither of us is considered a reliable source :P So unless a reliable source makes the same observation, it doesn't need to be included. AnmaFinotera (talk) 04:45, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Obviously AnmaFinotera is not looking hard enough. I had a look at a DVD still (a few frames before the "Wolf's rain" text appears) and the clouds reflected in the puddle do have a dog-like resemblence. If it was intentional, it is nicely done. However, it is still some pretty pointless trivia and I can't find a reliable source anyway, therefore it's not really encyclopedic. Astronaut (talk) 06:16, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
There's never a reliable source around when you need one. If someone involved with the show had confirmed this in an interview or article, it might be possible to compare it to the Rorschach inkblot test, M. C. Escher, optical illusions and the like.... Lee M (talk) 04:16, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Clean up

Wow...this article is in some serious need of attention. I'll be doing some major clean up over the next few days to get it inline with the main and the anime/manga manuals of style, clean up OR, etc. If I make a change you disagree with, please bring it here rather than reverting to discuss. I've started by cleaning up the odd formatting and removing the staff list (important folks covered by infobox and music section). I'll also be giving some much needed attention to the List of episodes article as well. AnmaFinotera (talk) 05:33, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I've merged in the two soundtrack articles, as they were little more than stubs and are barely edited with little likely hood of being expanded. If they can be fleshed out enough to be more than a stub and stand alone, I'd have no prejuidice about splitting them back out. AnmaFinotera (talk) 08:00, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

It should be noted... *SPOILER*

somewhere than in the end every single main character died. That is "extremely" rare in any show, even rarer in an anime. It is a spoiler though, so someone should put a spoiler warning before it.

...Including your entry in this talk page! You just spoiled it for me! Adding *SPOILER* to your headline -Dracker 18:19, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but (bigger spoiler) the twist is that they don't stay dead. They all get reincarnated! And in the meantime they all get beautiful death scenes. Lee M 04:21, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a spoiler free zone, so no, it shouldn't be noted. AnmaFinotera (talk) 05:21, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I notice that some of the character descriptions have now been expanded to include details of the characters' deaths, That may be encyclopedic, but it's also taking the "not a spoiler free zone" thing to extremes, apart from being fucking depressing. Lee M (talk) 05:13, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree it is sad. I still cry through all of the OVA episodes, even though I've watched it multiple times. But it is a part of their stories and their reincarnations are also noted in the plot section. The character descriptions need some rewriting, though, which I plan to do over the next two weeks along with a lot of article clean up. If it helps any, the whole character section will probably be moved off to List of Wolf's Rain characters during the clean up/overhaul. AnmaFinotera (talk) 05:35, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that the characters' deaths were unnecessary or badly handled in the series. I thought they were very well done and unbelievably powerful. (Keep telling yourself "It's not real. They're only drawings." Nope. That doesn't work. Poor little Toboe.) Even so, if casual visitors look at the character descriptions and see all the deaths they might decide there's no point watching the series and that'd be a shame. I guess what I'm saying here is that even if Wikipedia isn't a spoiler-free zone, it shouldn't be Spoiler City either. It needs to strike a balance. Lee M (talk) 05:52, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
Oh, I agree (Toboe really gets me every time). Still, it is one unfortunately problem sometimes with a show like this with so many deaths. I've had a devil of a time working on Blood+ because I haven't seen the whole series but I've been spoiled to most of the ending because of editing the articles. Still, while it may seem bad for new viewers to the series, it is in keeping with the precedence on other anime series that have deaths at the end. I think moving it to a list of will help, as what will be left here will be a more general discussion, so someone who hasn't seen it would get a general idea without getting the full details. AnmaFinotera (talk) 06:00, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Hey, The wolves were rebirthed as humans right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.36.89.42 (talk) 05:56, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

They were reincarnated, however whether they are humans or still wolves living in society is never explained, so saying one or the other would only be speculation and personal opinion.AnmaFinotera (talk) 06:15, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
It's pretty clear that most of them are in human form - Tsume is riding a motorbike, for instance, whereas the series makes it clear that their human disguise doesn't give them real opposable thumbs or legs that could reach the pedals. There has been some fan speculation that Kiba might still be a wolf, though. Lee M (talk) 02:57, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
The series doesn't make that clear at all. Its presumed, but no one in the series ever says "can't do that because I'm really a wolf" or anything like that. The ending has no voice over or remarks, so any interpretations regarding the ending are all speculation. AnmaFinotera (talk) 03:17, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
I think it's pretty clear that the wolves' human disguise is just an illusion, and they can't do anything that real wolves can't do (Except talk, and that's probably an illusion as well, like some kind of telepathy - in some episodes the wolves are heard talking while in wolf form, but their mouths aren't moving). They certainly can't drive or use firearms, and when it looks as if they're using their hands to hold things they're actually using their jaws. Sometimes it's a bit difficult to see how this works, unless they also project the illusion that what they're carrying isn't where it really is. In one episode the wolf-dog Blue tells the human Cher "I'll leave the driving to you", which seems like a pretty solid confirmation that a wolf can't drive. In episode 1 Tsume tells one of the human thieves he's leading "don't touch me", presumably because if the guy touches him he's going to feel fur and not leather. The wolves can also jump a lot higher than humans, which looks a bit odd when they're disguised. But in the ending, Toboe can pick up a cat in his arms and Tsume can ride a motorbike. Kiba's the only one who isn't seen doing anything unambiguously requiring human limbs. As for the lack of narration, maybe we're meant to work it out for ourselves? Well, I've reached my own conclusion at any rate. Lee M (talk) 11:55, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Exactly, all your own conclusions. Blue's statement can mean that SHE can't drive, after all she's lived as a dog all of her life and only just recently learned she was a wolf. That doesn't claim that ALL wolves can't drive. Tsume telling a human not to touch me does not indicate fear of them feeling fur and not leather, only his own dislike of humans and no need to be aided by them. None of the other wolves ever shows any issues with being touched by humans, and the many soldiers who were touched by wolves noted they had bite marks but did NOT claim "OMG, I felt fur" or anything like that. The whole wolves or human at the end is something that is indeed open to interpretation, but Wikipedia articles are not here for us to present (or really even discuss) our theories regarding what the ending means or whether wolves can or can't do things that require human hands. We are here to provide verifiable information pulled from reliable sources, not personal opinion and supposition.AnmaFinotera (talk) 12:17, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, I do think you protest too much, but I guess we're just going to have to agree to differ. Lee M (talk) 12:49, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
If you think it would make the article more informative to at least mention the scenes in the finale that appear to show that the wolves are now humans, then I direct your attention to Wikipedia:Ignore all rules. (I don't remember the cat thing myself, but it sounds like a pretty clear callback to his accidentally killing the bird when he tried to pick it up.) --DocumentN (talk) 20:39, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I've just watched some of the early episodes again, and I've noted a few points which argue against the wolves actually taking human form.

  • After they have passed by in apparent human form the wolves are seen to have left wolf footprints in the snow.
  • While walking through the city Kiba and Hige are seen by the citizens as human, but in a reverse angle they are seen by a dog as wolves.
  • In one scene Kiba and Hige look human but cast wolf shadows. (This is however a cheat for the audience's benefit, since humans would normally see them casting human shadows.)
  • The wolves always trigger Hubb's canine allergy whenever they are nearby (a plot device), regardless of their appearance.
  • Quent claims that the wolves have "put a spell on" humanity rather than changing themselves. Later on, Quent's perception of Toboe is seen shifting back and forth between wolf and human.
  • In the fight between Tsume and Kiba, Tsume's appearance alternates between wolf and human in successive shots (Kiba is only seen as a wolf in this scene, having not yet adopted a human appearance). This technique is repeated several times throughout the series. It is notable that at no time are the wolves ever seen morphing between one form and another.
  • When Toboe and Tsume are exploring the ruined city they appear human except when viewed through the ancient defensive mecha's camera.
  • Many times throughout the series the wolves are seen jumping higher than would be possible for a human, despite looking human.Lee M (talk) 04:02, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes...but that still doesn't negate the fact that its never said "we can do X activity that humans can do." Tsume wields a knife, and he is clearly shown using his fangs without any sign of the knife. Several times they are seen holding food in their "hands" and eating with their mouths, while at other times they rip off and eat like a wolf or dog would. And, if I'm not mistaken, in the episode with the town of wolves that were selling themselves as dogs, Zali shoot a man's hand while making a deal. The truth is, the series never explains how far the "illusion" goes and if the wolves are limited to the same physical capabilities as real-world wolves, or if they can somehow manipulate objects to further the illusion. It would have been great if that whole aspect had been better explored, but it wasn't, and it is not our place to draw our own conclusions and insert our suppositions about anything, only provide relevant, verifiable information from reliable sources. AnmaFinotera (talk) 05:15, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

List of countries, China & Taiwan

Has this show ever been translated or broadcasted in any of the countries such as Taiwan or China? Are the people in China aware that this show does exist? (Perhaps this show has been disapproved by the CCP?)

I think there should be a list of countries added to the article, consisting of which country has this show been televised in.

I know that this show has been dubbed in English and has been broadcasted in the United Kingdom in a satellite channel called Anime Central? It may have been dubbed in the US.

That's a no-brainer. All English language anime are dubbed in the US. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lee M (talk • contribs) 03:29, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
That isn't quite accurate. Most, but not all, anime are given dubbed releases. There are some that are released subbed only. AnmaFinotera (talk) 03:39, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Right. I meant to say "All anime that have English dubs are dubbed in the US". Lee M (talk) 14:01, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't think that is accurate either. There are a few UK English dubs, and I think a handful of Australia ones which are in English, but were not done in the US. :P AnmaFinotera (talk) 15:50, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

List of countries that may have been televised in:

  • Japan
  • Portugal
  • France
  • Russia
  • Spain
  • United States
  • United Kingdom
  • Germany
  • Poland

I found a webpage http://cd.newsibm.com/download/402880e411279583011127ad383f0108.html suggesting a Chinese awareness of this show. It's Kanji for the show's title "狼雨" is literally Wolf's Rain. However, I cannot tell if the show has reached the public awareness of China. Looks underground to me.

88.105.76.127 (talk) 13:44, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

See the List of episodes page. It should have all citable, verifiable places the show has aired in as well as all DVD releases. I've also updated the main article to repeat that info. AnmaFinotera (talk) 22:19, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
I was expecting someone to put up some flags on the front article of this show consisting where they have been presented/televised, like they did on the right-hand-side of the Chobits page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chobits) for example.
I'd take that last comment back, since they already done that.
They did include the flag of Hong Kong, suggesting that Wolf's Rain may have been translated into Cantonese. However, I do not see any flags of Taiwan or China.
88.105.26.93 (talk) 12:57, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
The "flags" are for the list of networks where the show aired on television, not what languages it was translated in or where the DVDs are licensed for release. For the information on that, see the anime section. If you know of an official release in Cantonese, please point to it (we don't include bootleg releases in our articles, which is the only Cantonese version I personally know of). AnmaFinotera (talk) 19:29, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Your statement on the first sentence does sound a bit contradictive...
What is "bootleg"?
88.105.14.211 (talk) 00:09, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Not necessarily. A company may choose to license the release for showing on TV and never release it to DVD. More commonly, the series may be licensed for DVD release but is never aired on TV. Most anime series that are licensed for release in the US, for example, never air on any TV channel but are released straight to DVD. So they would not show in the list in the infobox as being a place the show aired, but would be discussed in the DVD release section.
A bootleg is an illegal distribution of the DVD usually with low quality subs, region free disks, and low quality graphics. AnmaFinotera (talk) 00:41, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Are you saying there is an unofficial Cantonese DVD/CD release of this show in Mainland China or Hong Kong? Is it dubbed or subbed?
If it was dubbed, it was most likely to have been dubbed in the Hong Kong studios, as a ligitamate release and then subsequently pirated.
I was quite concerned if this show was really banned by the PRC as it may have some "rebellious" elements deemed by themselves.
88.105.42.221 (talk) 23:14, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
There are unofficial releases in both subbed and dubbed formats coming out of China and Hong Kong. They are frequently seen on eBay and some known bootleg selling websites, which is why anime users must be careful in buying online. In both countries themselves, they are sold in markets so you really have to be careful there to know what the legit releases look like. I haven't seen any news that the series was banned, but as we only deal in the original and any English language DVDs, the legitimately Chinese releases are not something that would be listed here. AnmaFinotera (talk) 01:12, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Manga "gropes"

Chapter means a section in a printed work. Grope means to fondle someone in a sexual way. So, why is "grope" more accurate than "chapter"? Astronaut (talk) 00:15, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Grope is what they are called in the manga, and as the note in the section says "grope" is a reference to a Japanese phrase for arriving somewhere after enduring hardships. Hence it being used in the article. With most manga, they are called chapters. However, as with Wolf's Rain, they are sometimes called something else, such as in Kare Kano where the Chapters are are called Acts, or they aren't numbered but instead given individual titles such as in Love Mode and Imadoki. To be the most true to the material, we list them using the official English term and/or name (when there is one), or the Japanese one when there isn't. Hope that helps. If I could find a site giving the kanji names, I'd add that along with the kanji for grope to make it clearer that it is a Japanese term, but so far no luck.AnmaFinotera (talk) 02:09, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I really should read it more carefully and check out the references before I assume the worst and "correct" what I assume is some low level vandalism. For the second time in 24 hrs, I stand corrected. Astronaut (talk) 07:13, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

OVA

Where are the OVAs? --24.74.36.191 (talk) 10:57, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Asking how the OVAs are sold is not starting a chat room, this should be included. Besides, TheFarix, you can not go around erasing things on talk pages without good reason. --24.74.36.191 (talk) 12:59, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

"talk pages are about improving the article, not about how to "buy things"". I didn't ask how to but them, I know how to buy DVDs. The problem is that the article says that the final ending was released as OVAs. It is missing encyclopedic data. A positive answer to any of the following questions would improve the article:

  • Are the OVAs on the DVDs of the episodes released as volumes?
    • Are they on the same DVDs as the episodes, or Bonus DVDs?
    • Was it on the DVDs when they were originally released, or added later?
    • Are the OVAs spread out along the discs like the OVAs that came with the four original .hack// games? Or are they all on the last disc?
    • Why are they not mentioned with the episodes outside of Wikipedia?
  • Are the OVAs on the "Wolf's Rain DVD Complete Collection" by Anime Legends?
    • Are they included separately, or not at all?
    • Was this collection made to include them, or where they included before?
    • Are they split between collection 1 and 2, or all on collection 2?
    • Why does the box not mention them?
  • Are they packaged separately?
    • What are they marketed as?
    • When were they released?
    • Where they exclusive? (Could only be found at an event, can only be found packaged with something else, limited time, etc.)
    • Where they ever shown on TV?

--24.74.36.191 (talk) 15:08, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Farix, normally I'd agree, but his question actually did point out an embarrasingly glaring error in the article...I totally forgot to list the region 1 release. Anon user, I've expanded the article some and will work on filling that missing information, but to answer your question, for the Region 1 release, the OVAs were released as the seventh volume of the series by Bandai, and treated as part of the series. They are also in all of the complete collections, as episodes 26-30. They were aired in the US as part of Wolf's Rain run (though the four re-cap episodes were not), however they were not aired in Japan (of course). See List of Wolf's Rain episodes for the airdates. AnmaFinotera (talk) 17:04, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Actually episodes 27-30 - episode 26 was the last regular broadcast episode. In Britain the OVA episodes were broadcast on Rapture TV, but not in the later broadcast by AnimeCentral. Lee M (talk) 04:33, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
I would have signed in earlier, but I have a policy against signing into anything while connected to a public wireless hot spot with no security. I didn't know they had done any OVAs till I had read about them in the opening paragraph of this article. I read the entire article and some of the pages linked to it. I then checked some retailers like RightStuf, and by the time I posted on this talk page, I thought the OVAs were a hoax or just someone's wishfull thinking since there has been plenty of animes that just leave you hanging. --MahaPanta (talk) 18:47, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry about that. Hopefully its a little clearer. I'm still working on the episode list, but it will note the OVAs as well and the full DVD release info. Part of the reason its hard to tell with retailers because no one outside of Japan seems to have marked them as OVA at all, but instead included them as part of the series regular episodes. AnmaFinotera (talk) 18:54, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
"no one outside of Japan seems to have marked them as OVA at all, but instead included them as part of the series regular episodes." That really should be noted because I thought I was being ripped off since my copy doesn't mention that the last episodes are the OVA. The reason I think this is so important to know is because it would be like thinking the last 15 pages are missing of your favorite book/manga because the publisher typed the wrong page count in the book's description. This happened to be with a graphic novel. --MahaPanta (talk) 20:58, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Russian Story?

I read somewhere this is a Russian folk story, being Russian and making it the focus of all my studies I just want to know if anyone has some proof that is/isn't the case?

Thanks!--67.185.245.221 (talk) 19:19, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Never heard anything about it, and never seen anyone try to say it was. If it is, there is little to no proof available, at least not in English. Might have to check some Japanese sites. AnmaFinotera (talk) 19:48, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
I am going to sleuth this because it sure would be neat if it was, now I have to know! Worst case scenario I will have to find out this summer when I am there. I guess that isn't exactly wiki-quality standards but at least I will know heh. It seems likely since on many sites it's alternative title is given in Russian, which doesn't seem ordinary for anime, also read it was shown in Russia. The part I read was a review of it said like "This classic Russian tale told through Japanese anime..." or something, and someone else reviewed it as a sort dark and depressing story method typical of Russian folklore (his words).--67.185.245.221 (talk) 20:04, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


Yes, this is true. This is story which takes place in Russia. I wrote some about it, but some bad radish people deleted it coz "needed souces" saying to "come back when you have sources". I told that this is evident facts which is shown in anime. But that russophobes undoing my constructive edits (well, there was one). Sad, but true. Obvious things that understandable from the article subject don't need sourses, I said that... Well, I will leave facts here and info which I wrote in article, maybe you know some sources or maybe you will embark on the path of truth. P.S. Sorry for not very good english. Hello from Russia ;)

I wrote at the bottom of preamble:

"Also, the anime series have quite many references to Russia and some connected stereotypes with it: overwhelming majority of inscriptions are made on russian language (russian alphabet), on frames we often can see vodka and potatoes, and action mainly takes place among northern (probably Siberian) landscapes."

This is really all just facts that are shown in the anime itself. (I can say more - it is only part of references to Russia what I wrote). I hope some day it will be in the article. 188.242.61.168 (talk) 12:52, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Good Article Review

I am starting the review process with the quick fail criteria, then moving point-by-point through the GA criteria. Any comments or responses are welcome -Âme Errante (talk) 23:19, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

  • Quick-fail: ; Did not fail the quick-fail criteria. The Reception section does contain some strong praise, so I'll check those sources mentioned and others to make sure that this is well founded and not soapbox / POV. < Discussed below

Editor's Note: I know that the authors of this article have put a lot of effort into crafting and revising the content, and the fact that I am so nitpicky in my review is not meant to diminish this effort, nor to lead you to believe that this is a bad article. Rather, I think the article is quite well written, balanced, concise, and NPOV. I have been very careful in my review, noting even minor problems, because I believe that I owe you no less; to give the article a quick skim rather than a thorough review would not be fair to the amount of work you have already put in, in my opinion. Just because I have noted a problem below, does not mean that I'll refuse the GA nomination based on this problem. I've tried to state which things are major issues and which are minor problems.

  • 1. Prose: ; For the most part very good, but some major issues remain
  • Overall, the introduction is good. However, I would suggest you reference the reception if you are going to spend so long talking about it later.
  • I would suggest linking to an article that explains the concept of OVAs the first time this is introduced.
  • I have fixed a number of minor spelling errors throughout the piece... nothing too major, but it does make me wonder how thoroughly the article was checked before it was submitted to GA.
  • It was checked, but as the main editor and main checker, I've probably missed stuff. Unfortunately, the request for a copyedit sat unanswered for months at LoCE. I'll see if I can get a copy editor to give it another going over.AnmaFinotera (talk) 02:48, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
  • This article links to a 'Characters' article as a main article and (presumably) the source for the section on characters (no other reference is provided in this section). Because of this, the related 'Characters' article definitely needs to be cleaned up before Wolf's Rain is considered for GA status. It doesn't need to be perfect, just address the banners at the top of the page.
  • I disagree. There is no requirement that a subarticle be well done before its main can be a GA. There are plenty of GA's with bad character lists (or worse, lots of character articles). Fixing the character list is on my list of things to do, but I don't think that means it should be required to be done before this can be GA. I'll add the needed references for this section, though. Will that take care of the problem? AnmaFinotera (talk) 02:48, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
  • In the list of characters, what is basis for using katakana, rather than hiragana, to spell out the names?
  • The anime section is nice and factual. It's good to leave the list of episodes to another article, as we already have a plot outline above. However, I believe that you should do the same with the table listing chapters in the manga section (make it into its own article, or remove it). The text is mentioned above in 'differences', and the chapter listings can easily be condensed into a paragraph or even a sentence or two.
  • Doing so would violate the MoS. Its only two volumes and not long enough to support having its own article. The way it is now is in keeping with our Anime and manga MoS.AnmaFinotera (talk) 02:48, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
  • with the usual Viz banners added to... - What are the 'Viz banners'? Why is this important to this article? I would suggest deleting this sentence, as it sounds like trivia. A once-over on the article to remove similar trivial things (i.e. things that don't add to the understanding of the topic Wolf's Rain) would be nice.
  • moderate success, considered a hit - Avoid weasel words. What makes a hit? Is it lots of viewers, good money for the studio? Who decides which shows are good and which ones bad? Don't talk about strong appeal without giving me some facts or an actual measure of appeal. See Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_words.
  • The following is a very long sentence, and should be revised: "Reviewers of the Region 1 DVD volume containing the four episodes recommended it be left unbought and skipped as a waste of money, though Bandai's release of the episodes was also considered an improvement over the Japanese release of the series which had the recapitulation episodes spread over two DVDs requiring them to be bought to get the new episodes on the same volumes."
  • The section on critical reception probably shouldn't be so long. While the wording seems fairly balanced (though by no means perfect) and NPOV, the length of the section suggests Wikipedia:UNDUE#Undue_weight. In a nutshell, I don't believe that the reception is more important than the plot in understanding this anime, yet plot is a slightly less lengthy section than reception.
  • That does not mesh with the anime and manga MoS, nor the Wikipedia emphasis on its real-world aspects rather than the plot and in-universe/fictional aspects.
  • In general, the article is organized well, with a good table of contents and good sections. Wikilinks are provided for subjects when they are first introduced, and covers jargon, company names, etc. One complaint is that the section on 'changes in manga adaptation' feels out of place between plot and characters, which together introduce the series. I would suggest moving this either below the 'characters' section as its own section (since it references changes in characters in addition to changes in plot), or, more preferable, to the section that deals with the manga.
  • Had to fix one error with tense, but overall article sticks to present tense, and when it uses past tense it is not distracting.
  • 2. Links and References: ; Many issues remain
  • There are no sources for the introduction. It is probably not necessary to source things like plot and episode length, but would be nice to pull some references for licensing/distribution information, the statement about the manga being a retelling, etc.
  • A lead should never need sourcing. Anything in the lead should be sourced within the article, as everything in the lead should be. If there is something in the lead that is not referenced within the article, please let meknow.AnmaFinotera (talk) 02:48, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I'm not sure you should link to the articles on Paradise and Wolves, as these are generally understood subjects and have specific uses in the anime.
  • I found a reference to an article that has nothing to do with Wolf's Rain. This is a big one, considering the potential POV and weasel wording of the associated sentence: It is considered a major hit amongst manga that are adapted from an anime series.
  • I noticed that at the bottom of the 'reception' section, a quote is summarized and then immediately displayed as a block quote. I would suggest you stick with the summarized sentence and remove the block quote, as you already have a block quote by the same author, from the same website.
  • On the same note, 13 references (1/3 of the total) are from the Anime News Network, and many more are from similar sites that cater to an anime fan-base. This article needs to have a wider range of sources, and specifically some sources that aren't geared towards fans. As ANN itself states, "The vast majority of visitors to Anime News Network are over the age of 18 and, needless to say, they're all anime fans[...]" [1]
  • There are only a handful of English anime news sites that meet those requirements, ANN, ICv2, and AnimeOnDVD.com being the ones most often used. All three are industry supported and meet all requirements for being a reliable source. There are a few statements that can be referenced from other sites, like the official site, as well, so I've updated those.AnmaFinotera (talk) 02:48, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
  • 3:Breadth ; After fixes as noted
  • For the most part, this article is concise, and sticks to aspects relevent to the topic.
  • As noted above, there are several instances of trivial information, and a table that should either be relegated to a more in-depth article on the manga or removed. In addition, the section on reception is long compared to other sections in the article, and considering that reception is only somewhat important in understanding the topic.
  • I commend this article for avoiding the 'trivia' and 'cultural references' sections that plague so many similar articles.
  • 4:NPOV ; problems are minor, but should be addressed
  • Overall, the article is very factual and does not drift into POV material. Very well written. However, there are a couple of concerns, especially with the 'reception' section, as noted above. In a nutshell, the article should avoid weasel words, and not give too much bias to certain sources.
  • 5:Stability
  • This article has been stable for the last month, and there don't seem to be any ongoing edits or major changes.
  • 6:Images
  • All images used in this article have fair use rationale or are in the public domain.
  • The article could probably use a couple more images to illustrate the anime, but this is a matter of taste and may not be possible due to copyright issues.

In summary, I am placing the nomination on hold, because I believe that these issues can be met in the week allowed for changes.-Âme Errante (talk) 23:19, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I've withdrawn the GA as the reviewer never came back to answer questions. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 07:32, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Improved Plot Summery

Greetings! I just posted an extended (improved) plot summery for the page. I included all the citation needed as well. Hope you approve.69.212.254.162 (talk) 10:23, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

It has been reverted, yet again. As already noted the other times you have tried this, the plot summary is already quite sufficient and your summary contains a glut of personal interpretation (aka WP:OR that has no place here. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 13:59, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Isn't there a way to use my extended text and just change the parts that you think have the wrong "personal interpretation"? The current text has some major gaps and flaws in the timeline and events.69.212.254.162 (talk) 09:32, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

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