Talk:Winged Victory of Samothrace/Archive 1

What is she wearing?

Does anyone know what the Greek name of the garment is? --In Defense of the Artist 22:37, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

A kiton, a kind of buttonless, draped blouse.

Blowing a trumpet or victory paean?

The entry claims that Nike was probably blowing on a victory paean or trumpet. Could this please be cited? I had read previously (somewhere) that her hands had actually been recovered and found empty.

The plastic sheets at Louvre include pictures of a Greek coin representing a winged figure blowing a trumpet on a prow (coins by Demetrius Poliorcetes?). I don't know if they are presented as an example of a common theme or the coin is thought to represent this actual statue.

The Louvre is not an Enclyclopia, thus nothing in the Louvre is notable. You need to provide a proper citiation or GTFO. 69.65.91.78 (talk) 11:41, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

That's an unnecessarily salty comment. Suppafly (talk) 15:46, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

One of the references mentions this, although it probably could be better incorporated into the article

Louvre Website: the discovery of her right hand, identified by Phyllis Williams Lehmann, now also at the Louvre, settled questions of her gesture, whether to bring a trumpet to her lips as she is depicted on earlier coins or bearing a wreath to crown the naval victor.

Also, the link to the Louvre website is broken Suppafly (talk) 15:46, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Escalier Daru?

After reading this article I'm curious as to what the "Escalier Daru" is. Can someone elaborate? - Ianneub 03:33, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

It simply means "Daru Staircase" - it's a monumental staircase inside the Louvre. -- ChrisO 07:18, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I see, thanks for the info and links ChrisO and Adam Carr - Ianneub 18:37, August 1, 2005 (UTC)

Which battle?

Any speculation on which battle inspired the creation of the statue?

Well. As a representation of Athena in her manifestation of victory (Nike) there needn't be any specific victory associated with the goddess - she would simply have been understood as representing Athens and her ruling deity. But her appearance on the prow of a ship is unusual. It is partly explained by the nature of the site, which seems to have all manner of votive offerings associated with it from all over the middle east, many being naval.

For Instance, a short distance from the amphitheatre that originally housed Nike there is a huge building (the Neorion) that was built to accommodate an entire warship, given as a votive offering to the Great Gods (according to Karl Lehmann. the archaeologist in charge of the excavations at the Sanctuary of the great Gods on Samothraki) by Antigonas Gonatus who developed Macedonian sea power around the 3rd century B.C. I have visited this building and it is still very impressive, especially the huge keel shaped marble blocks that once supported the great ship. As the Neorion was in place about a century before the Nike statue, it is perhaps possible that the statue was erected upon a ships prow as a continuation of the ship theme set by the earlier structure. Perhaps the wooden ship had even decayed to the point where a stone representation was felt necessary. DavidP 00:07, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I've never seen any suggestion of a link between the Victory and Athens. She was made in Rhodes, as I understand, in celebration of a Rhodian victory. Adam 05:36, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Adam: The statue is a portrayal of Nike. Nike is a manifestation of the goddess Athena as the goddess of victory. She (Athena) was the goddess of several things and each one of her 'talents' if you like, was represented by a different image or statue. similar to the way Christians will represent Christ as a fish, a lamb, a bleeding heart, etc. Athena's spheres of influence were as follows: each with an image and a name.

• Goddess of War - Athena Nike (victory), shown with wings
• Protector of Heroes - Athena Promachos (Athena, Goddess who Fights at the Forefront) - shown with Aegis (a snake fringed cape)
• Goddess of wisdom - Athena Pallas - shown with helmet
• Goddess of Craftsmanship - Athena Polias - weaver - shown weaving
• Goddess of virtue - Athena Parthenos (parthenos means virgin)- adopted Protector of the City of Athens - the parthenon - shown with column, shield and head-dress

So although the statue may have been made in Rhodes, even though made of marble from Paros (Parian marble) the figure that is represented is utterly Athenian (to use a rather miserable simile 'Mickey mouse' represents America, but is usually made in China these days at least). As for the particular reason that the statue was given as a votive, no one can say - the cult in Samothraki was one of the few mystery cults that never was betrayed, its rituals remain a mystery. In a way you are right though, the suggestion is seldom made that a statue made for ancient pagan religious reasons is anything other than bit of carved stone that the Louvre exhibits alongside paintings that have far shallower contexts. DavidP 20:24, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

(I have no idea what that last comment means.) Of course Athena was the patron goddess of Athens, but that doesn't mean the Athenians had a monopoly on her, any more than the English have a monopoly on St George. As far as I know the statue was made in Rhodes, or on order from Rhodes, to celebrate a Rhodian naval victory, and has nothing to do with Athens. Correct me if I'm wrong (with references). Adam 05:53, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Adam. the rhodes link with this statue is only based on two things, the grey marble of the ship is Rhodian, and the word Rhodes is inscribed on that same plinth/ship. the asertion that the sculpture was carved by a rhodian sculptor is perhaps rather speculative. but I guess it had to be made somewhere.

As for the Athenian conection being likened to St George, I whole heartedly agree with you regarding its universality - except in this case the statue was sourced, made (even if in Rhodes) and sited well within the territory that was home to the first and second Athenian empire - so as its reasonable to say that, when St George is encountered in England he is unlikely to represent Moscow, the Nike would have had clear connotations of the Athenian deity, being on what was Athenian soil - this is also supported by the costume that she wears which is still identifiable as 4th century Athenian dress. costume that, even when the sculpture was new, placed it back in in time to when the first athenian empire was at its peak (as was the sanctuary at Samothraki). In fact at the time the sculpture was made (whichever estimate you prefer) Samothraki and Rhodes where both outside of the newly imposed macedonian empire, so perhaps the Athenian dress/goddess was intended to represent the golden age when both Islands were united under the Athenian empire. If so It would be saying much the same as the Pergamon Altar with which is is closely associated. Anyway enough speculation - while looking for a clear reference to the sculptors origin I came up with this - which may help you with your original question. According to the Louvre Museum...

The sanctuary at Samothrace was consecrated to the Cabeiri, gods of fertility whose help was invoked to protect seafarers and to grant victory in war. The offering of a statue of Nike perched on a ship was a religious act in honor of these gods. It has also been suggested that this monument was dedicated by the Rhodians in commemoration of a specific naval victory. The type of ship depicted and the grey marble used for the prow and base of the statue both suggest that this is indeed a Rhodian creation. If it is associated with a major Rhodian naval victory, the work can be dated to the second century BC-it would have been erected in honor of the battle of Myonnisos, or perhaps the Rhodian victory at Side in 190 BC against the fleet of Antiochus III of Syria. DavidP 00:38, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

who sculpted it??

Nobody knows. The glorious statue has swallowed the memory of its maker; just like the men who designed the architecture, glass paintings and sculptures at Chartres Cathedral he is now forever nameless.Strausszek (talk) 21:33, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Popular culture or other works

Should there be a section where references are made to this statue? For example, the princes' gates in Toronto? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.156.38.100 (talk) 18:27, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

The sculpture was supposed to have arms??

'The loss of the head and arms, while regrettable in a sense, is held by many to enhance the statue's depiction of the supernatural.'

Ive never been to the Louve and seen it, so I dont know. But from the photos ive seen in this article and others, ive never seen any place where the arms would be/were...lol —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.121.247.116 (talk) 02:06, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

In Gardner's Art Through the Ages, it says that "Her missing right arm was once raised high to crown the naval victor -- just like Nike places a wreath on Athena on the Altar of Zeus." Mizunori (talk) 16:44, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Not to mention there is a right hand (as the article mentions), so clearly there must have been something to connect them! :) -- Prothonotar (talk) 08:13, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

It's a Greek statue of a goddess, of course it should have arms. They never made picturesquely ruined statues.71.231.179.224 (talk) 15:47, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Where did she go during WW II?

When I saw the statue, I remember hearing a story that the statue (and all the rest of the artwork of the Louvre) was removed and hidden. The story was that when Hitler arrived in Paris, he headed straight to the Louvre to take the statue back to Berlin, and was bitterly disappointed that it wasn't there. Does anybody know if this story is true? Do you know of a reference? If so, it belongs in the History of the statue. (I can't imagine the Germans would have left it in Paris.) —MiguelMunoz (talk) 00:47, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Sounds very doubtful that they'd have emptied all or most of the Louvre, the place is huge. In the Netherlands they did hide many painting masterpieces (such as The Nightwatch which was hidden in a salt mine and then moved again) but those had been moved off already during the winter of 39-40 I think, but they were easier to move than big sculptiures. It seems true that the Nike and Venus Milo were hidden at Talleyrand's castle though. Strausszek (talk) 18:31, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Definite article: "the Nike"?

To my ear, "The Nike /of Samothrace/", when referring to this statue which is known worldwide as a unique and distinctive figure, is very poor English and either a loan from German or romance langauges where a definite article can be used in front of a personal name sometimes ("Der herr Martin Schmidt", "el señor Juan", "das Charlotte") or it comes from analogy with titles such as "the Queen", "the Madonna", "le Satan" (in French), "the Christ". Those are given an article because they're not true personal names. Now, Nike was seen, as far as we know, as an aspect of Athena - at least in the Classical age which is earlier than the statue - but to most people who are thinking of this work or confrionted by it, Nike is more of a personal name, the name of this goddess. And names of ancient sculptures depicting a definite person and linked to a place (where they were found or where they have ben on show) are given without article: Venus de Milo, Diana of Versailles, Augustus of Primaporta. "The Nike of Samothrace" sounds especially quirky when it's in a weighted position in a phrase: subject or primary object.

Admittedly, people will use "the Christ" sometimes in English but it's highly restricted to orthodox theology and statements relating to faith, and a phrase like 2The Christ interrupted them to show that..." would sound odd to anyone, wouldn't it? the sculpture is known in many langauges and in English, at least colloquially, as "Nike of samothrace" - the name "Winged Victory" which is also quite fitting exists only in English. So I suggest the definite article the should be dropped whenever it precedes "Nike" as the name of this particular statue.

I lifted it off at the point in the intro where the name is used right after "Winged Victory of Samothrace"; "the Nike" really looked awkward there. What's your opinion? Strausszek (talk) 15:42, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

I could not more strongly disagree. Beginning a sentence with Nike of Samothrace is... is unidiomatic; I nearly tagged the article as needing clean-up, as badly translated from a Slavic language. The difference from Christ is that Nike is not a personal name Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:44, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Citation error

The books cited in note #8 is entitled Loot, not Lost. Here's the correct citation from WorldCat:

Loot: the battle over the stolen treasures of the ancient world / Sharon Waxman 2008 1st ed. English Book Book xiv, 414 p., [8] p. of plates : ill. (some col.) ; 25 cm. New York : Times Books, ; ISBN: 9780805086539 0805086536

For the past two centuries, the West has been plundering the treasures of the ancient world to fill its great museums, but in recent years, the countries where ancient civilizations originated have begun to push back, taking museums to court, prosecuting curators, and threatening to force the return of these priceless objects. Where do these treasures rightly belong?... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.220.8.168 (talk) 20:29, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Editorializing

Does anyone think that the description passage is a little to editorializing. I mean, who says that Laocoon is "contrived" and the Nike isn't? Who says it is now at a better contemplation position today, or that the loss of the head and arms enhances the experience for visitors? It seems to me that without citations, this violates the NPOV rule or the rule against original research. J Fischer 71.231.179.224 (talk) 15:50, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Arizona Capitol

For what it's worth, the figure atop the dome of the Arizona State Capitol is based on Nike of Simothrace. An example, not public domain. Might be worth adding? Some more references may be needed for this though. 69.244.58.168 (talk) 01:13, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Neo Nike

The article says "Neo Nike was buried in a field on the north coast of the island."

From [1]:

In 1999 I made a new Victory of Samothraki to replace the Victory which is now on display in the Louvre in Paris. The "performance" consisted of taking the new Victory to Samothraki and offerring it to the inhabitants of the mystical island in the Northern Cyclades.

There is a film that recounts the voyage called "Max and the Walking Sculpture" produced by Circa 01 in France.

See also [2]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.4.68.112 (talk) 13:47, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Primary topic for "Winged Victory"

The article title Winged Victory currently leads to a DAB page. Should it redirect here? Check out this discussion: Talk:Winged_Victory_(novel)#Primary_topic_for_.22Winged_Victory.22 Kauffner (talk) 13:04, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Right hand

The multimedia feature by the Louvre shows the detached right hand and states the hand was raised in greeting or blessing. This contradicts the Louvre's article on The Victory, that the right hand was cupped around the mouth. Viewing the hand, either in the multimedia show or this Flickr image, proves it is open, not cupped. Yet how to convey this in the article without OR and with the Louvre's own contradictory statements? 71.234.215.133 (talk) 14:38, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

This is the text accessible version of the multimedia feature. See section "The pose", para 5, sent 2, and the following images of the hand and statue reconstruction.) 71.234.215.133 (talk) 14:59, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Restorations

Now that it has undergone a further restoration, does anyone believe there should be a section discussing the precedures this work has undergone? There's a good overview in this link. I believe this would be useful to stress what parts are not original, as well as the conservation debates over the 'fake' bits. RPFigueiredo (talk) 16:45, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Concerning the picture

I do not see the reason for this edit. Does anyone else prefer the former picture as well? AndrewOne (talk) 16:48, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Yes, by a nose. Johnbod (talk) 20:42, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Description of the Wings

I recently went to a talk given by Dr. Bonna Wescoat, director of the excavation at the Sanctuary of the Great Gods on Samothrace, and she mentioned that the wings of the Nike were unlike any other representation of wings in Greek art (or any other art for that matter). I think this would go nicely in the "Description" section. I found a YouTube video of her talk, in which she mentions the weird wings, but there are probably reliable written sources that mention the wings as well. Klgarvey (talk) 13:18, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

right wing

why 3 pictures showing her fake reconstructed right wing? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mcongosto (talk • contribs) 21:42, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Very good point Mcongosto. With that kind of observational skill why aren't you a regular editor of Wikipedia? It's more fun than you may think. I'll leave any action for awhile, to see who else responds, but yes, one or two of those views can be taken down and maybe replaced with further images of the "real" statue. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 21:49, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Naval Victory?

Hi, I'm new. I added a citation for the naval victory interpretation, where there is a citation needed tag.

That said, there's a recent article that argues pretty strongly against this traditional view. I don't think the Rhodian naval victory line is as certain as the article states. Could we add the opposing point of view? Artever (talk) 00:31, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Stewart's paper is already there ("description" para 1). The issue could be expanded somewhat, and the whole section is a bit of jumble. Johnbod (talk) 00:54, 13 August 2019 (UTC)