Talk:Willie Nelson/GA2

GA Review

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Reviewer: SilkTork *^YES! 22:01, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Initial review

I'll read the article over the next few days and then start to leave some comments. SilkTork *YES! 22:01, 2 May 2011 (UTC) GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria Is it reasonably well written? A. Prose quality: B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists: Is it factually accurate and verifiable? A. References to sources: B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary: C. No original research: Is it broad in its coverage? A. Major aspects: B. Focused: Is it neutral? Fair representation without bias: Is it stable? No edit wars, etc: Does it contain images to illustrate the topic? A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales: B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions: Overall: Pass or Fail: Comments I'll make random comments here as I read through. I will use bullet points and sign each comment to make it easier for people to respond to any point. I'll sum up the GA review with what needs to be done - if anything - at the end. SilkTork *YES! 23:12, 2 May 2011 (UTC) Stable. There are no edit wars, though I notice that the article attracts a fair amount of low level IP vandalism. At the same time, there have been positive contributions by IP accounts. As the vandalism appears to be dealt with quite quickly, there probably isn't a need for protection - however, if regular contributors/watchers feel that protection is appropriate, I will semi-protect the article. SilkTork *YES! 23:12, 2 May 2011 (UTC) I think that semi-protection is needed indeed, the vandalism is real frequent and instead of reverting it quick it would save a lot of time to definitely protect it (just a thought).--GDuwenTell me! 23:31, 2 May 2011 (UTC) Done. SilkTork *YES! 23:35, 2 May 2011 (UTC) Images. I'm uncertain about the status of File:Willie-Nelson-Highschool.jpg. Wikipedia:Media copyright questions may be able to help. SilkTork *YES! 23:29, 2 May 2011 (UTC) And File:Kris Will Waylon.jpg. This may be OK, but the uploader is no longer around, and looking at their talkpage, they seem to have uploaded some questionable material. It's a great image - to get three big stars like that together so clearly. Worth asking just to make sure. If it is OK, then it should be moved to Commons. SilkTork *YES! 23:32, 2 May 2011 (UTC) Is there any more information regarding this image: File:WillieNelson.jpg? It appears to be serving little purpose other than to be decorative. We only need one identifying image of WN, and we already have one in the lead. It's a better image than the lead image. Perhaps it could replace the current lead image? SilkTork *YES! 23:40, 2 May 2011 (UTC) There are a lot of images of WN playing his guitar. Do we need so many images which look the same? Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(layout)#Images asks people not to overwhelm an article with too many images - I think this has happened here. SilkTork *YES! 23:47, 2 May 2011 (UTC) I will check out the status of those images. I'm not sure about the one in the infobox. The picture with the caption "Willie Nelson" has no other information, and is very representative of Willie's image, therefore it would be good to use it as main image. On the other side the one that currently is on the infobox is closer and frontal shot. I need an opinion considering those facts. About the repetition of images of WN playing guitar I could select some of them, luckily there's a lot of free content (the problem is that Willie always is playing trigger on them) --GDuwenTell me! 23:51, 2 May 2011 (UTC) I've listed the issues with the images in Wikipedia:Media copyright questions, here are the details listed: File:Willie-Nelson-Highschool.jpg: The Willie Nelson museum and general Store has given the authorization to use the image, however I tagged the license of the picture as a "Fair Use" because I was not sure under which other license should I put it. The photograph was taken circa 1950, for a high school portrait. I don't think that the photograph was published for the first time with a copyright notice, which would make it eligible for this license Template:PD-US-no notice File:Kris Will Waylon.jpg: The picture is very useful for the article, and if the author is not the original, could it be placed as an historical image (Template:Non-free historic image)?--GDuwenTell me! 00:35, 3 May 2011 (UTC) I uploaded the High school portrait under the same name (File:Willie-Nelson-Highschool.jpg) in the commons, tagged with the PD-US-no notice tag. The old image has to be removed now.--GDuwenTell me! 19:39, 3 May 2011 (UTC) Images are now OK. Good work. SilkTork *Tea time 13:20, 11 May 2011 (UTC) Prose is clear and readable and conveys the information. It could do with a polish, and it would be worth getting someone to copyedit it, but is generally OK. Where some attention is needed is in the flow. There are a number of short paragraphs and short section. This creates a choppy feel, and makes the article appear muddled and cluttered. Short sections are advised against in Wikipedia:LAYOUT, which is part of the GA criteria. SilkTork *Tea time 13:06, 11 May 2011 (UTC) Reading further I see that the prose will need careful attention. I'm looking at some of the later sections, thinking I would just polish it up, but I think it needs someone to go through the whole article carefully. Probably be good to contact Wikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors and request some assistance. SilkTork *Tea time 23:03, 11 May 2011 (UTC) I contacted the Guild of Copy Editors, and hopefully they will solve the issues with the prose soon. This is one of the critical needs of the article, and needs to be carefully reviewed by them.--GDuwenTell me! 17:04, 15 May 2011 (UTC) The lead will need some attention as it moves too soon into Nelson's early history without telling the reader the important points about the man. See WP:Lead. If there are to be changes to the article body, the lead may require ongoing work, and we may return to it again later. SilkTork *Tea time 13:06, 11 May 2011 (UTC) I've done some changes in the beginning of the lead, but as you said, it will need further development as the body of the article is modified.--GDuwenTell me! 17:04, 15 May 2011 (UTC) Spokemanship sub-section. What is this paragraph about? I'm thinking that the first part is about a commercial deal to advertise a chain of steakhouses, while the second is about Nelson's own business. The writing here is hard to follow. And I'm wondering what this is doing in the Personal life section. SilkTork *Tea time 23:03, 11 May 2011 (UTC) I just deleted the subtitle and left the paragraph under personal life, because in the case of Willie's Place is a personal investment, and in the case of Texas Roadhouse, is the use of his persona as publicity. Maybe it could be placed under a section with a different title. --GDuwenTell me! 17:04, 15 May 2011 (UTC) References. There are occasional statements that need citing. I will read through again and tag those that stand out. I have already tagged a few. When there are challengable unsourced statements the OR criteria cannot be cleared, so that will have to wait until all sources that need sourcing are done. In addition, spot checks reveal that the sources do not support what is said. For example - article says: "Price Waterhouse, had not been paying Nelson's taxes for years, and used his money in poor investments"; source says: "Willie Nelson landed himself in tax trouble as a result of investments he made in the early 1980s in a tax shelter later ruled illegal by the IRS." SilkTork *Tea time 17:18, 15 May 2011 (UTC) Focus and coverage. There is a lot of detail in this article, perhaps too much. A trimming of unnecessary detail would be helpful. For example: "In 2008, Nelson signed on to warn consumers about the cruel-and illegal-living conditions for calves raised to produce milk for dairy products. Nelson wrote letters to Land O'Lakes and Challenge Dairy, two of the major corporations that use milk from calves raised at California's Mendes Calf Ranch, which employs an intensive confinement practice that was the subject of a lawsuit and campaign brought by the Animal Legal Defense Fund." The preceding two sentences on his involvement in horse welfare is enough, though the writing could be improved. SilkTork *Tea time 17:18, 15 May 2011 (UTC) On hold There is a lot of information in this article on a popular topic, and significant contributors (mainly GDuwen) are to be commended on collecting together the material. The prose needs attention, and this is the major flaw in meeting GA criteria. Other issues are more precise citing, closer attention to sources, and presenting the material in a concise and readable manner appropriate to a general interest encyclopaedia. Recommendations are a serious copyedit to deal with the prose issues; a closer look at the amount and type of material collected to ensure that the focus is always sharp and on significant details rather than the trivial and mundane; and a closer and more careful use of citations. I will put this on hold for an initial seven days to allow these issues to be deal with. I suspect it may take longer, so will reassess in seven days time. I will help out where and when I can, though my Wiki time is subject to what is happening in real life, particularly what my young daughter is up to! SilkTork *Tea time 17:38, 15 May 2011 (UTC) I have changed the system of some sources (books and publications) to make more easy to find. The pages were the sourcing information is written have been detailed.--GDuwenTell me! 22:00, 15 May 2011 (UTC) The books had been listed in alphabetical order of author, as this is the conventional route. Also the book titles had been correctly formatted - example "The Improbable Rise of Redneck Rock: New Edition" is currently shown as "The improbable rise of redneck rock: new edition". Also the naming and formatting of the reference section has changed, moving away from the most common usage, which is against guidance. While some editors do list texts in a separate section, it is more conventional to have them as a subsection of the main ref section, and to use ";" to format the list because the book list is a child of the citation list. And the books were listed in the same format as the cites, making it easier for the reader to make the connection - for example, the cite was "Richmond, Clint (2000). Willie Nelson: Behind the Music. Simon & Schuster", while the book listing was "Richmond, Clint (2000), Willie Nelson: Behind the Music, Simon & Schuster". Currently the book listing is "Willie Nelson: Behind the Music. Simon & Schuster; 2000 [cited February 7, 2010]", and the author is not mentioned at all. See WP:FOOTERS and Wikipedia:Citing sources for further information. If you're uncomfortable with using the term Bibliography (and it is guided against as both a list of book sources used and list of books written), then Books is given as a suitable alternative. I'll make the adjustments - see what you think. SilkTork *Tea time 10:38, 16 May 2011 (UTC) Well, if that is the right way to go, I'm ok with it. I included the number of the pages for a more specific sourcing. I copied the book sourcing format from Elvis' article because it was a FA so I figured out that it was an example to follow, but it doesn't matter anyway. I will now source the Awards section.--GDuwenTell me! 23:08, 16 May 2011 (UTC) The Elvis article uses a different form of citing which involves short citations, this article uses full citation. SilkTork *Tea time 09:45, 24 May 2011 (UTC) Ah, I can see what you were doing - you were changing from full citation to short. Full citation is the main method used on Wikipedia, though some editors like using the short method. Changing from one method to another is discouraged. SilkTork *Tea time 10:00, 24 May 2011 (UTC) The Guild of Copy Editors is now taking care of the copy-edits, as well I'm adding more consisting sourcing to some lines.--GDuwenTell me! 18:36, 22 May 2011 (UTC) There is still a lot of copy-editing to be done. I'll put this on hold to the end of the month, and help out with the copyediting. SilkTork *Tea time 10:26, 24 May 2011 (UTC) I hope that my copy-editing will help this article in its path to GA. If there was a problem with my copy-edits, please let me know. --Slon02 (talk) 04:39, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Refresh

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

• Images OK. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 12:29, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
• Stable. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 12:31, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
• Has reference section. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 12:31, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
• Prose is still poor. I am willing to help out, but find that I don't have the time. Also, I am hindered by not always understanding what is said, so am unable to rewrite - such as "produced three children: Lana, Susie, and Billy, who committed suicide in 1991." I assume it was just Billy who killed himself, but it could mean all three. "The couple divorced in 1971, when Collie found a maternity bill of a Houston hospital to Nelson and Connie Koepke" I think I can work that out, but I would rather not quess. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 14:30, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
• I don't follow the need for many of the sub-sections. Some of these are very short. The amount of sections inhibit flow. GA criteria follows the guidance of Wikipedia:Layout#Body_sections. I note that one section where I had removed sub-sections in line with the guidance of WP:Layout, had been reverted back to multi sub-sections. That was unhelpful. This article needs to pay closer attention to criteria 1(b) of Wikipedia:Good article criteria in relation to layout, lead and lists. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 14:36, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
• There is a lot of linking. That, combined with the short paragraphs, also inhibit the flow of reading. See WP:Overlinking. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 14:53, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
• The article is overdetailed and could do with trimming. It is difficult to distinguish the trivia from the important information, and the reader is swamped with a series of notes. For example - "Nelson wrote the song that named the album after a recording session. Pacing in his room, he went to the bathroom, where he penned the song on the empty envelope of a sanitary napkin in the sink". That is fairly trivial, though might be appropriate for the Shotgun Willie article. It certainly is not appropriate here, where the article is already quite long because of the amount of stuff that Nelson has done in his life. Remember, we are not writing a biography, we are writing a general encyclopedia entry - a useful summary of the important facts about Willie Nelson for the general public. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 15:08, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
• Neutral. Article appears to be fair and balanced. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 15:39, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
• Sources check out. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 16:15, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
• I'm just looking at the Encyclopædia Britannica entry on Nelson, and I note that we don't have a section on musical style. The EB says: "His performances featured a unique sound, of which his relaxed, behind-the-beat singing style and gut-string guitar were the most distinctive elements." "Willie Nelson" Encyclopædia Britannica, 2011. AllMusic says: "he borrowed from a wide variety of styles, including traditional pop, Western swing, jazz, traditional country, cowboy songs, honky tonk, rock & roll, folk, and the blues, creating a distinctive, elastic hybrid." / "he remained a vital icon in country music, having greatly influenced the new country, new traditionalist, and alternative country movements of the '80s and '90s as well as leaving behind a legacy of classic songs and recordings." / "nasal voice and jazzy, off-center phrasing". "Willie Nelson" Stephen Thomas Erlewine, AllMusic, 2011.SilkTork *^{Tea time} 16:45, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
• After reading AllMusic and EB, I think it would be appropriate to have mention of the IRS case in the lead, as both mention that prominently. Also in the lead should be mentioned that he retired from music in 1972 because of his lack of success. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 16:47, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

I made an effort to reduce the use of unnecessary sub-sections and I will be working on the over linking and removing of trivial sections as well. I will call again Slon02 to do a further check for copy-edits.--GDuwenTell me! 16:49, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

• • (ec)There is a fair bit of work to do, but I think it is achievable. The areas to concentrate on are trimming the excess detail; sorting out the layout; copy-editing the prose; and creating a Style section. Two weeks should be decent enough time to do this, and I will try to help out when I can. If there is a significant amount of work to do in two weeks time it would be appropriate to close this as not listed, though I am hoping that we can get this listed if people make the effort. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 16:53, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

• The filmography is a good idea. Makes this article neater, and people can go there for the extra detail if they wish. Needs to be sourced though. IMDb is a quick and easy start, though more secure sourcing should be sought out later. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 17:01, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

I will source the filmography and work a bit on the style of it, I just created it quick to narrow some sections. I also merged others.--GDuwenTell me! 17:11, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Good work. I can see this starting to take shape now. I am quite hopeful this article will get listed. Earlier today I wasn't so sure! SilkTork *^{Tea time} 17:15, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

I detailed in the lead Willie's IRS debt and his retirament and return to music. With some copy-editing the article is gonna be back on track--GDuwenTell me! 21:24, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

I removed as much trivia and excess of details as I could, hope it's fine now.--GDuwenTell me! 23:26, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

I have replaced the picture of the infobox for a more updated one, hope it looks good.--GDuwenTell me! 01:41, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I like the new picture. I'll take a good look at the article over the next few days with an eye to tidying up any remaining issues and getting this listed. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 08:11, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

• The "mail-order music lessons" - the article says that the grandparents gave Nelson these lessons. Is there a source for that, because what I'm picking up is that his grandparents got mail order music degrees for themselves. Also, I'm seeing stuff that suggests the grandparents brought up Bobbie and Nelson. What happened to the parents? SilkTork *^{Tea time} 01:14, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

According to the book "Willie Nelson: Country Outlaw", the mail order material was ordered by their grandparents for themselves and later passed on to Willie and Bobbie. According to Joe Patoski's book and this source, Willie's mother abandoned the family in 1933, while his father died in 1939. Another interesting information provided by the source is that Willie attended radar school. --GDuwenTell me! 02:16, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

• I'm still working through the article tidying up here and there. I only get the chance to work on Wikipedia in short bursts at the moment, so this is taking time. Sources do bear out what is said in the article, so it is mainly at this stage a copy-editing task - trimming unnecessary detail, and ensuring the article flows so that the information is readable and easily understood. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 01:14, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Good to know that, needs little more work.--GDuwenTell me! 02:16, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Extending hold

There's more prose tidying and detail trimming and source checking to be done. I'm aware that GDuwen has been busy off Wiki for the past week or so, and I have also. But even though slowly, progress is being made, so I'm extending the hold for two weeks. This should, hopefully, be a realistic amount of time. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 18:03, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Still active, or "busy off Wiki for the past week or so"? I wish he could get back to work on this article. 'I () () `'/ I><pron0un¢ed "On£-ThouSand-$e7enT¥"> 21:15, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm active but my time some days is reduced. Still, I'm making an effort to dedicate time to the article to get it listed.--GDuwenTell me! 21:15, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

I trimmed the article a little bit more, there was still some trivia to be removed. I tried to replace the trivia of two album releases (The Great Divide & Outlaws and Angels) by adding more information about the collaboration Two men with the Blues and with the addition of his recent album Country Music. Both are more relevant, and were a major success regarding Willie's recent works.--GDuwenTell me! 17:43, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

• I'm now inclining toward failing the article. Each time I work on it, hoping to simply trim wordage, and tidy up the prose, I find statements that are unsourced, so I check them and find mistakes, or nothing to back up the statement. It's a frustrating and time-consuming business, as I really thought that the article looked good, and just needed tidying. But I find that even doing a simple copy-edit I can't get beyond the first section because of the amount of research that needs doing. It's not helped, of course, by sources conflicting or differing (some sources say he was in the Air Force for nine months others say eight months) - some sources say he graduated others say he dropped out of High School. When looking on the internet to check info, I find that sources are mirroring Wikipedia. So a statement that Nelson joined Bud Fletcher's band The Bohemian Fiddlers, is found in places like last.fm, which got it from Wikipedia, but which is wrong, as the band was called Bud Fletcher and the Texans.[1] There has possibly been a mix up with John Raycjeck's Bohemian Polka Band.[2]

There's still a few more days before the end of the current hold, and I'll wait till then. It may be that I have just been unlucky with the statements I've been checking, and that the rest of the article is fine. I'll do a final check on or just after July 10, and see how the article stands at that time. In the meanwhile I would urge contributors to check that statements are accurate and are reliably sourced, and that anything doubtful is cut. It's also worth looking at other tertiary sources on Willie Nelson to see what information they include as important, and what they exclude as trivial. For example, how much of the Politics sub-section is really important, and how much is just colouring? What are the important points being made that a person would wish to summarise? It appears to me that the entire first paragraph could be cut as it's not really about Nelson. That's just an example. The text needs to be examined closely. I will try and get involved as much as I can, but my time is limited, and already I am the third most involved contributor to this article. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 13:22, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• • The article has Nelson "played in a local band at age nine", and "starting at age thirteen and continuing through high school, he earned money by singing in local dance halls, taverns, and honky tonks"; while this source says he started earning money as a musician aged 10 in the Bohemian Polka Band. All this needs reconciling. I suspect the "local band" he joined at age 9 was the Polka band, but that needs checking out. And then check what sources say, and if needed, make a footnote saying that sources differ on his age at the time he joined his first band. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 13:31, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• • • This summary of Nelson's activism is a useful guideline. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 15:23, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

I have also have come across sources that contradicted each other at the time I was expanding the article. It's really frustrating since you can't assume that one is right and the other is wrong, but I only try to stick to a logic timeline. I will check today the whole article for sources, I'll do trimming in the Politics section and I'll try to assses the issues you pointed out. Being realistic, I'm not very sure that it will be in an optimum state five days from now, but I will do my best.--GDuwenTell me! 16:49, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

1; 2; 3: This sources also confirm that he joined the Bohemian Polka Band at the age of ten.--GDuwenTell me! 17:20, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

If the majority of sources are saying that, and only one is saying age 9, then I would be inclined to go with age 10.

Yes, isn't it frustrating that sources are inconsistent! Often what happens is one source gets it wrong, and others copy. That's why it's important for us to get our facts right - Wikipedia is a much used source, and we can be responsible for perpetuating a mistake, or for putting it right.

Do what you can, but don't sweat it. Whatever happens on the 10th, the article has improved. And if I do fail it, you can always nominate it again later on when you have more time. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 20:35, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

• Parking this here now, to look at later - willienelsonpri.com SilkTork *^{Tea time} 20:38, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

A final decision should probably be made at this point; it's been over 2 months. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 15:36, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Wizardman. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 11:28, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Listing

There is still ongoing work needed on tidying up the prose to ensure that the article flows - reducing some short paragraphs and sentences, however the article is clear enough now to meet GA criteria. I have either sourced or removed any unchallengeable statements, and the sources I've checked are reliable. Any questionable sources I encountered I have removed. I have trimmed back on a lot of detail during this GAN. It is one of the more difficult aspects of constructing a Wikipedia article, getting the balance right in the amount of important detail. An article can either contain not enough information, or too much. It is useful, where possible, to be guided by other tertiary sources, such as encyclopedias and topic specific guidebooks. The information the bulk of the other sources use, is the sort of information that Wikipedia should have. If the main encyclopedias don't have the information, it is likely that we shouldn't have it either. A recent report indicated that we are sometimes not concise enough, and indulge in "information overload". I feel that the current length and detail is about right, though fine-tuning that will be part of the ongoing development of the article. Be aware that adding more information may mean either reducing what is already here, or looking into splitting off a section into a standalone article per WP:Summary style. Some more attention could be given to Nelson's music style. And the legacy section needs looking at to tidy it up. I am uncertain about the Steakhouses being a sub-section of Personal life, as that is really a business activity. It may be appropriate to start a new section on business activities, which would include the steakhouses and the biofuel. Be also aware of too much detail being given to recent events. It is a common trait in Wikipedia articles (see WP:RECENTISM), and is usually seen when an artist's most recent recordings and appearances get listed with details such as who else appeared in the show, what songs were sung, etc, even when the concert was not remarkable in the artist's overall history.

This is a detailed and useful article that will serve well those who come to Wikipedia looking for an overview of the important points in Nelson's life (an average of 3.3 thousand readers a day). I learned a lot about him while doing this review, and commend GDuwen and Alakey2010 for the impressive amount of research and work they have done over the years to build the article. I hope I haven't been too severe in my amendments during this review. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 10:32, 17 July 2011 (UTC)