Talk:William of Canterbury/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Kusma (talk · contribs) 08:14, 16 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Reserving this one. Comments to follow over the next couple of days. —Kusma (talk) 08:14, 16 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Progress box and general comments

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV ()

3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant ()

Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Not a very long article, but there doesn't seem to be so much known about him.
Sources are reliable academic works, and I have access to most of them and am checking that they say what you claim they say.
Source/reference formatting: added a link and fixed a typo. Consistently formatted. On a longer article I might suggest {{sfn}}, but that is optional.
Can't see any traces of original research or copyright issues.
Not many authors, rather stable.
No pictures, but I can't find much to suggest (a reproduction of one of his manuscripts would be great, and a picture of 12th century Canterbury could work).
No MoS complaints other than the lead length. Good to see that there is no infobox (would likely be pointless or misleading).

Content and prose review

Lead: Consider adding something like (fl. 1170–1177) after the name.
- Done. Ealdgyth (talk) 13:05, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Another sentence about each of the books (miracles and hagiography) would make a nicer lead. It is currently a bit short.
Early career: Because of William's criticism of King Henry II's policy in Ireland, it has been suggested that William was from Ireland, although this is not known for certain. Several things. (1) Who suggested this? (2) I don't think "William's criticism of King Henry" is a good start for a bio, perhaps "Little is known about his life" would work better as first sentence? (3) The Marcus Bull article you have as "further reading" has in its abstract "William was not himself Irish, as has sometimes been supposed", and this is elaborated pp. 120–121 (apparently he needed an interpreter when talking to Irish).
Link Benedictines.
- Done. Ealdgyth (talk) 13:05, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
To understand the spy story, one needs a little bit of background on the relationship between Becket and the king. Consider adding half a sentence of context.
Becket's murder: Please give some more context here: when was Becket killed, by whom and why? (I realise that the vast majority of people reading about William will know this, as their interest in William is likely derived from their interest in Becket, but the article should stand alone if it can, even if it is only for someone clicking random article and landing here). Likewise, it would be nice to hear a little about what happened in Canterbury between 1170 and 1172 to fill the gap in what is known for sure about William.
Is martyrdom the neutral way to put it? The cult says yes, but I'm never sure what is religion and what is politics with these people (I have written a few articles on medieval German bishops).
Writings on Becket: At the link Thomas_Becket#Cult_in_the_Middle_Ages we unfortunately don't find much about the first shrine. Perhaps it is worth explaining that a cult developed and that William collected miracles from the pilgrims?
Parts of the collection were given to King Henry II As the previous sentence was about the shrine, it isn't clear that this is about the stories.
I found it interesting as how different Koopmans describes William's miracle stories from Benedict's, being much more trusting and less reliant on witnesses and more sensational (p. 182). Anyway, I think there could be more to say about his miracle stories, and given that we don't have pictures to illustrate his personality, perhaps including some of his writing here could be good.
This is another related source I found (if you can't access it, wikimail me and I'll send the PDF).
At the same time William presented the king with parts of the collection of miracles, William also composed a hagiography of Becket, completed around 1173 or 1174 this somewhat contradicts what you said before about presenting the collection to the king in late 1174. At that time he worked on the hagiography and then completed it in 1173?
has been called "the closest we have to an official Canterbury Life" by whom?
give a short gloss who Robertson is
Again, it could be nice to have some quote or excerpt from the book.
Further reading: there are more things that could be said about the books in here, e.g. "William's Book IV seems preoccupied with pilgrimage abroad" in Oppitz-Trotman 2011. I would probably try to use the two texts as references and not as further reading.

Interesting article! I have learned something about 12th century England. I suggest to try to give a little more context and to expand a little more here and there along the lines mentioned above, and we should be done soon. —Kusma (talk) 21:41, 16 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Putting on hold so I don't get confused with other active reviews. —Kusma (talk) 11:20, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, the weather/other stuff has got me a bit busy - it'll be a few days more before I can give this the attention it deserves. Sorry! Ealdgyth (talk) 12:35, 22 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Ealdgyth: no problem, thanks for checking in! Stay safe, —Kusma (talk) 12:53, 22 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Ealdgyth, it's been a month, are you still busy? —Kusma (talk) 20:34, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm mostly recovered from an extended visit from the grandchildren (5, 4, and 2...) ... should be early this coming week. Ealdgyth (talk) 22:37, 24 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you could email me the Vincent article? I have email enabled... Ealdgyth (talk) 13:05, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Email sent. —Kusma (talk) 16:25, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm ..sorry but I'm just utterly swamped outside wiki and not sure when I'll be able to get to the sort of things you're asking for. And to be frank, I'm so busy and tired from stress from outside wiki that I just can't summon the energy to want to make these changes - William/Becket isn't a high priority interest of mine and I want to be able to work on things of higher interest to me if I find a few seconds of wiki time. I'm sorry for letting this hang around, I thought things would improve but ... not likely until at least November.. heh. Sorry! Ealdgyth (talk) 22:38, 3 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No worries @Ealdgyth, I totally understand. I will close this, though, to keep this nom from slowly climbing to the top of the "longest hold" chart. When you get back in the mood, I am happy to review your changes. Just ping me when you renominate; I should manage to get this done within a week (even though my real life is likely going to be quite busy from October to Christmas). Hope you get some rest and manage to relieve some stress! —Kusma (talk) 15:50, 4 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]