Talk:William ap Thomas

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Facts

Where are these facts coming from exactly?? There is no confirmed source for this and A genealogical history of the dormant, abeyant, forfeited, and extinct peerages of the British empire by Sir Bernard Burke confirms that William ap Thomas married twice and it was 1st to Gwladys, 2nd Margaret Griffith. There is no mention of an Elizabeth Bluet or Blount. Also, the castle belonged to William ap Thomas' mother's family, the Morley's. It was through her that the family came into possession of the castle. Please see Burke's Peerage Google Books Online -- Lady Meg (talk) 04:17, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In searching books I am getting very different information, looking first for recent books.[1]

First, William ap Thomas could not have married anyone after her marriage to Gwladys ferch Dafydd Gam. He died before she did and they were buried together at Abergavenny Priory. See the information and citations in Gwladys article and [2]
Second, It appears that his first marriage was to Elizabeth Bloet, widow of Sir John Berkeley, who died in 1420. I've added citations to this article.
I am finding information that says that Raglan manor passed to William ap Thomas through his marriage to Elizabeth. He obtained a freehold in 1432 and was the builder of Raglan Castle - I'm thinking that means expanding the manor into a fortress/castle.

Sir William ap Thomas: The Castle Begun. Elizabeth presumably lived in the Bloet manor-house with her second husband until her death in 1420. William ap Thomas subsequently retained Raglan as a tenant of his stepson, James, Lord Berkeley [3]

Information that I am finding for Sir John Morley does not indicate that he owned Raglan manor. Rather is country seat and estate was Llansantffraed Court located approximately 2 miles west of the town of Raglan and Raglan Castle. So, when he is identified as "Sir John Morley of Raglan" the reference is to the town, not the manor/castle.

Aside from Burke are there any other references that say that William ap Thomas married Margaret - and that William obtained Raglan through his mother? --CaroleHenson (talk) 05:24, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the confusion now regarding the inheritance of Raglan Castle. The property that was inherited through Maud, his mother, was Llansantffraed manor which was located approximately 2 miles west of Raglan Castle and the town of Raglan. Sir John Morley wasn't of Raglan Castle, but confusion probably ensued because of the proximity to Raglan Castle and the town of Raglan. Does anyone disagree? Still trying to sort out Margaret Griffith.--CaroleHenson (talk) 08:17, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Margaret Griffith 'seems' to be a genealogical (that's where I find most of the differences) mix-up. It appears that Margaret, daughter of Thomas ap Griffith married William's son, Sir Richard Herbert of Coldbrook who died on the battlefield at Danesmoor.[4][5] [6] [7] --CaroleHenson (talk) 17:26, 25 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Blue Knight of Gwent

During February 2011 you made a series of edit to the article and among other things added a section "The Blue Knight of Gwent". The section currently reads:

The Blue Knight of Gwent

Sir William fought in France with Henry V of England and at the famous Battle of Agincourt. In 1415, Sir William was created knight banneret. In 1426, he was knighted by King Henry VI, becoming known to his compatriots as "Y marchog glas o Went" (the blue knight of Gwent), because of the colour of his armour.^[1]^[2] he gradually began to establish himself as a person of consequence in South Wales.

References

^ Clark, Arthur (1962). The Story of Monmouthshire, Volume 1. Christopher Davies. p. 122. ISBN 978-0-9506618-0-3.
^ Cadw (1994). Guidebook for Raglan Castle (Section transcribed at CastleWales.com). Cadw. Retrieved 25 February 2011.

I came to this page because of some text added to List of knights banneret of England duplicating these facts but without a citation to that list.

@user:CaroleHenson There are a couple of problems with this text. The first is that there is no corresponding record of the granting of a knight banneret to Sir William in the two main sources used to create the list that used the rolls:

Metcalfe, Walter Charles (1885), A Book of Knights Banneret, Knights of the Bath, and Knights Bachelor made between the fourth year of King Henry VI and the restoration of King Charles II ..., London: Mitchell and Hughes
Shaw, William Arthur (1906), The Knights of England: A complete record from the earliest time to the present day of the knights of all the orders of chivalry in England, Scotland, and Ireland, and of knights bachelors, incorporating a complete list of knights bachelors dubbed in Ireland, vol. 2, London: Sherratt and Hughes

So do either of the sources used to support the granting of a knight banneret in this article cite a primary source?

The second problem is that the he could not have been made a knight bachelor after he had been made a knight banneret because as the knight banneret article explains "The military rank of a knight banneret was higher than a knight bachelor (who fought under another's banner)". This means that if he was made a knight by Herny VI (who would only have been less than 5 years old in 1426), it must have been a Knight of the Garter or something similar not an ordinary knighthood (knight bachelor). Do you still have the sources and can you check them? -- PBS (talk) 19:00, 4 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

PBS, From the Castlewales site that has the transcription of the Cadw guidebook for Raglan Castle, 1994: "In 1426, ap Thomas was knighted by Henry VI, becoming known to his compatriots as Y marchog glas o Went (the blue knight of Gwent). Gradually he began to establish himself as a person of consequence in south Wales."

From what you are saying, though, this information is wrong and should be removed from the article.–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:21, 4 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, since you pinged me here using @[[user:CaroleHenson]], you don't also need to post anything on my talk page. I see the notification. Did you know you could just use {{u|CaroleHenson}}?–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:24, 4 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I don't doubt that he was a knight and that he may have been made one either by Henry V or early in the reign of Henry VI. A couple of centuries later kings such as James and Charles would force people to pay to become a knight for their coronation, whether they wanted to or not, because they had to pay a fee (and enrich the Crown).

I did a search on Google Books: "William ap Thomas" banneret and I think I have found a volume that explains it.

Morgan, Octavius (1872). Some Account of the Ancient Monuments in the Priory Church, Abergavenny. Monmouthshire and Caerleon Antiquarian Association. p. 50.

It is a fairly detailed biography and it includes this:

He is commonly considered to have been at the battle of Agincourt, in 1415; and Edmondson in his Baronagium Genealogium p. 263 states that he was made knight banneret, 1415; but the authority for this statement does not appear. The third year of Henry V. was from March 21st, 1415, to March 20, 1416. In August, 1415, the King landed in France and there knighted divers gentlemen, whose names are not recorded. In October following he fought the battle of Agincourt, but no mention is made of knights or knights bannerets made there, except the three who were knighted on the field for saving his life. Sir Harris Nicolas, in his “History of the Battle of Agincourt,” gives the name of every knight, man-at-arms, and esquire in the army, but does not name any William ap Thomas. Hence Edmondson's statement seems to be erroneous; and in confirmation of this, in the calendar of Inq : post mortem, for the 8th year of Henry W., 1420, occurs this entry:- "Elizabetha quæ fuit uxor Gulielmi app Thomas, “armigeri” (not equitis nor militis), nulla tenuit in com: Hereford, nec. “March ; Wall.” This seems conclusive ; but furthermore, if he were knighted as Edmondson states in 1415, he was certainly knighted a second time by Henry VI. in 1426, which could not have occurred, for we find in Leland's Collectanea, Vol. II., p. 491, in a copy made “Oute“ of a booke of Chroniques in Peter College Library,” the following entry: “Henry VI scant XII months old began his reign, anno. 1422. In the “fourth year of his reigne (1426), Henry was made knight at Leycester,“ by the Duke of Bedford, on Whit-Sunday, and after the King made “these knights,” which knights are all mentioned by name, and among them is “Syr William ap Thomas.” It is therefore quite clear that he was knighted by Henry VI. in 1426, and not by Henry V. in 1415; and that he did not then bear the name of Herbert.

My bold emphasis. This passage has the advantage that it cites primary sources to explain the conclusion. The use of quotation marks and lack of italics is confusing! However the conclusion is not. -- PBS (talk) 06:39, 5 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Great catch, PBS! Thanks for doing the research.–CaroleHenson (talk) 13:15, 5 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

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1620 Visitation of Cornwall for THOMAS.jpg

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[clark-1] Clark, Arthur (1962). The Story of Monmouthshire, Volume 1. Christopher Davies. p. 122. ISBN 978-0-9506618-0-3.

[castlewales-2] Cadw (1994). Guidebook for Raglan Castle (Section transcribed at CastleWales.com). Cadw. Retrieved 25 February 2011.

[1]

[2]