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Article conflicts - wife and children

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I found this article while fixing links to disambiguation pages. The article provides conflicting statements about how many times he married (and in what order), what children he had, etc. Perhaps someone who has access to more reliable information can do some fact checking and generally wikify the article? --Paddles TC 09:11, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's a long time in coming, but it's under construction right now.–CaroleHenson (talk) 09:14, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Page Vandalism 1/21/2010

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On the morning of 1/21/2010 this page began seeing heavy, frequent, and erroneous vandalism. This rise in page vandalism is attributed to the real-life connection between the subject of this article, Dr. William Rickman and his great (7x?) grandson, a local Atlanta radio personality, "Southside" Steve Rickman. On the morning in question, several edits were made to the page to include references to "Southside" Steve and some of his more well known exploits (i.e. the lemon test, hosting events at Hooters restaurants, his distaste for the use of condoms, etc.). These edits to this page were noticed during the airing of his local morning talk show, The Regular Guys, on Atlanta station Rock 100.5 FM and referenced on air, possibly causing more edits to be done by listeners (rumors persist as to whether or not a member of the show had made any of the original edits). It appears some editors to the page attempted to remove the vandalism (also noted on-air) however the rapid rate of editing caused Wikipedia to take notice and the article was subsequently blocked from anonymous edits and put under vandalism protection. The subject of this article is a person of historical interest and as such, this page need not be edited to contain references to "Southside" Steve, other than perhaps a simple mention of his familial connection. For those editors who felt the need to continuously edit this page to include these references, the only solution seems to be the immediate creation of an article dedicated to "Southside" Steve Rickman and his many, many, many exploits. After all, there are over 400 of them... GDhaberdasher (talk) 16:40, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

March, 13, 2012:

I am a direct descendent of Dr. Rickman through Jesse Rickman, Mills River, NC. I find the above comments disgusting and intrusive. Those comments do not belong on a historical page in Wikipedia. There is some discrepancy about his first wife's name, the mother of the children, who past away before he married Ms. Harrison. However, it is due to a lack of sufficient records substantiating their marriage and where it took place. Our Henderson County, NC records show the mother's maiden name as Van Meter and her first name as Sarah. The Wikipedia first name is shown as Katherine, although it could be also Catherine. Until the formal records can be found, there is no reason to put idiotic posts on Wikipedia and commit vandalism against what is listed. I take issue with 'whoever' Paddles is, and question if they really are a descendent of Dr. Rickman. Taking time to search for the proper documentation for a correction would make more sense. Certainly identifying one self with the tea party or other conservative organizations make me think Paddles is no doubt the opposite of what he lists. I am searching for the appropriate documentation to verify who the mother/first wife actually was, although I believe the NC version due to Jesse Rickman, as it was his mother and he should know. Thank you. EG — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.213.43.60 (talk) 13:31, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]


Anon Change from 2009 to 2010.

Not sure what this is about since it's 2009 to 2012.–CaroleHenson (talk) 09:21, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For what it's worth from so long ago, I definitely agree that Paddles is not likely a family member. Seems like a thoughtful Wikipedia user who appropriately mentions the need to wikify the article (format, clean encyclopedic content, add wikilinks, and most of all add citations to reliable sources). That's not meant to be hurtful, just the things to write better articles and to prevent them from being deleted.–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:03, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Posting 1 July 2017

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172.222.129.45 (talk) 21:36, 1 July 2017 (UTC) posted: We are direct descendants of Jesse Rickman. Grandma Rickman verified our relations and I was alive to hear her talk about the VanMeter marriage. Just because the marriage certificate is missing does not preclude our relations and we have the flow charts researched with verifying information about the connecton. Someday we will find the marriage certificate to his first wife.[reply]

That would be really good. Wills, burial info, and children's births can be really good, too.–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:04, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Under construction

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The article is under construction right now. Responding to multiple sets of postings:

  • I noticed that the wife's name has been changed to Sarah Van Meter.
  • It hasn't shown that she lived in Henderson County, NC records. I will search on that. And, a death for Sarah (vs. Katherine, it seems).
Update formatting only.–CaroleHenson (talk) 09:18, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I put most of the alternate (VanMeter) version in a note in the Dispute section before I saw the posts on the talk page. I will start researching there (vs. finding missing sources top-down). If the VanMeter marriage was to this Doctor William Rickman, there were two marriages.–CaroleHenson (talk) 09:25, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Research:
  • Hampshire County (I believe Virginia at the time, WV adm. 1863 - upd: excerpt WV 1924) Wills:
Isaac Van Meter, Dated 15 Feb. 1754, proved 14 Dec. 1757. “Of the South Branch of the Potomac.” Wife Annah, Children Henry, Jacob, Garret, Sarah Rickman, Catherine, Rebecca Hite and Hellita Van Meter. GIVES US. Sarah Van Meter, daughter of Isaah Van Meter who died by 14 Dec. 1757. Daughter married to someone with the surname Rickman by 15 Feb. 1754 (date of will). COMMENT: No children until 1760? 1766?–CaroleHenson (talk) 09:51, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Will: 1754, Feb. 15. Vanmetre, Isaac, of South Branch of the Potowmac… Sarah, daughter wife of John Rickman
Correction.–CaroleHenson (talk) 04:04, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Will proved December 14, 1757 in Hampshire County, Virginia, Lib. 12, Page 119 (now WV)
GIVES US. Husband is John. Not this William. Same other siblings except "," instead of "and" between sisters Rebecca Hite - and - Hellita Vanmetre–CaroleHenson (talk) 10:27, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Discount Sarah Van Meter, 1758-1825 written and typed SAR summary (attached to ancestry 1722 birth - 1805 death), married Charles Snow, Greene County (VA or PA).–CaroleHenson (talk) 10:04, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weird private and public photo/records (genealogy) records for Sarah Van Meter born 23 Feb 1722 with different years of death (1770, 1772, 1775, 1805) and places of death. There was one SAR record with a transcription error of 1722 dob for 1805 dod that I corrected to 1758 dob and 1825 dod. There is no image with a clipped record (just the people not the source or dates) for Sarah Van Meter with a stated date of death.–CaroleHenson (talk) 10:53, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am not finding Sarah Rickman in death, will, and other records in Henderson County, North Carolina. There are some Rickmans buried in Mills River, Henderson County, North Carolina that were born in the 1700s - nothing young enough to be Sarah, but she may not have discernable dates on her gravestone. I am striking out here. If there are specific records, like wills, death records, newspapers, etc. that would serve as reliable sources that have her name, that would help a lot.
  • I found a DAR record for William Ryckman here, but there is information that doesn't match up.
  • When I search DAR for William Rickman, I get no record found, which would be expected if he had no descendants. I need to find the will that says she's inherited his property, with no mention of descendants.
  • When I search SAR for William Rickman, I get no search results.
  • In the meantime, I am going to search for reliable sources for the other missing citations and {{citation needed}} tags in the article. Perhaps we can back into data that ties William Richman in Virginia to Henderson County, North Carolina (JSTOR, newspapers, books) that I did not find in ancestry.com. There should be a tie to DAR or SAR if he has known descendants, too.–CaroleHenson (talk) 11:55, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I didn't find anything that sheds light on this family, unfortunately. It would have made the article more interesting. By the way, I also searched for Rickmans in general - with no first name.–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:28, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Find a grave is generally not a reliable source, because it is user-contributed, which this appears to be. I don't see a FAG indication of military source, which could be used. But for William Rickman, the military supplied headstone information (year of death, position, name, type of headstone, cemetery) that is used in the article. I did not include the year of birth, which at this point is unknown until we find reliable source(s). As an aside, from the blown up image of the gravestone, no year of birth is there either.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:24, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is a William Rickman in Charles City County who acts at a justice of the peace for the county for the King as of November 10, 1775. This seems odd if he enlisted in the Continental Army on May 18, 1775. Could there be two William Rickmans in Charles City County (based on the custom to use the same first names in families - such as the Harrison family of Virginia)?–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:23, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is a book that says he was justice of the peace Charles City in 1772 - as were three Harrisons. So, I added that there is "a William Rickman..." to the article - since we cannot definitively tie this to our William Rickman.  Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 03:59, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please feel free to comment - by inserting rows after the item you want to discuss and indenting (:) one extra indent from the previous one. You can see my indents where I provided some updates above. Or, typing comments below here. Again, indenting. And, contrary to previous opinions, it is okay for IP users to comment here.–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:55, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Update

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Based on what I am able to find and not able to find, there is no reliable evidence that Rickman had children. There are three sources NPS, SAR, and DAR, that show that there are no known descendants. And, even the attempts to create a family connection, whether valid or not, have not resulted in any viable connections. One of the biggest problems is not knowing Jesse's mother's name / William's spouses name. I can see that it is possible that there was a wife before Elizabeth, but there's zero proof. It would seem that if he had children, he did not want to provide for them.

So, until something turns up, it does not make sense to include anything about the theory that Rickman was married before 1775. I have removed all content to his having children in this version. I also removed extraneous info about what happened after Elizabeth's will - which gets away from the story of Rickman's life. And, I didn't find anything about Milford becoming Kittiewan in places I would expect to, like the Kittiewan site and the NPS site. Or places that mention Kittiewan. I will search books for it, though, that's a good key to finding Rickman.

Milford  Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 02:31, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If viable sources pop up for information to add to the article, I will add it. And, if anyone has encyclopedic style with reliable sources, that would be really helpful. Good sources rule!

I found quite a sources, but there are probably more. I am probably  Done (I sometimes keep picking away a little.)–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:18, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What would really help is a good biography - typing out loud.–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:49, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Found one.  Done–CaroleHenson (talk) 23:18, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Another key principle is that published sources are needed --> There's No original research at Wikipedia, at all.–CaroleHenson (talk) 00:59, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Back into sources

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This is a link to a forum at genealogy.com There looks to be good info here "provided by Patrick O'Neill, Kittiewan Plantation historian, owned and operated by the Archeological Society of Virginia" that I have not seen published as a whole. Unfortunately, we lose the historian's opinions, though, since they are not published in a reliable historical publication, site, etc.

But, content can be searched a sentence or so at a time to see if there are sources for bits of information. There's a lot that's already covered, but I will check it out and if anyone finds sources for more content, please mention it here.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:21, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From top down, looking for info not in the article:
  • Milford  Done
  • Tracts of land - not finding specific info for "Thomas Brown" "Drinking Run" "William Rickman" - not good at finding land generally. Anyone good with land?  Pending (to be done)
  • Have the correct date of marriage to Elizabeth in the article (May 5, 1775)
  • "When Dr. Rickman died in 1783, his widow Elizabeth inherited his property, including Millford."
  • IMO, it doesn't make sense to me to cover in detail how Elizabeth's will was handled. Not encyclopedic content generally for more than a couple of sentences.
  • John Edmondson left Milford after Elizabeth's death for his life. No more needs to be said, IMO. What's in the article in the Widow's benefits and inheritance section looks good.
Looks easier to sort out than I thought it would be, except for the property Rickman bought and what he left Elizabeth. There's a lot of key points that are already in the article.–CaroleHenson (talk) 02:27, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Are there any comments or suggestions?23:09, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
Someone could make an argument that there should be info about the Supreme Court case by John Edmondson's children or descendants - but they lost the case and it seems it was there's to lose. Elizabeth's will said that after John Edmondson died, her property should go to her brothers. Well, the suit was specifically for the Ohio land grants, but I cannot see how they thought that they had rights to that land.
I could see if someone wanted to add that. There's a source already in the article to start with: "United States. Supreme Court. United States reports, Supreme Court : cases argued and adjudged in the Supreme Court of the United States. 1870-12: Vol 11. Superintendent of Government Documents. December 1870."–CaroleHenson (talk) 17:23, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Rickman children

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I wonder if Jesse Riley Rickman is the son of John Rickman and Sarah Van Meter (Vanmetre) of Hampshire, Virginia. From an occam's razor perspective, that makes the most sense. Particularly because of EG's comments from 2012. (I don't see a Sarah Van Meter and William Rickman marriage until the 19th century in Missouri, but again, it could be that there are lost records. It is seeming less likely, though, if William came to Charles City in 1769, was on a ship for three years before that, and there's zero mention of a wife or children in any of his records, and he married in 1775. How would Jesse have been born in 1770, for instance. We have several sources that put William in Charles City in 1769, early 1770s.)

There are supposedly two men with the Rickman surname from Charles City County that may have been William's brothers. I think Robert and John from the 18th century, but I haven't been able to find anything about them. It seems the Charles City County courthouse burned down in the 19th century (Civil War?) and a lot of records were lost.

From a genealogy-search perspective for the family, not Wikipedia except where actual records can be found - and so far it seems not for this article:

  • There's an ancestry tree for John Rickman / Richman from New Jersey, married to Sarah Van Meter, but her father was Harmannus and all his records are for New Jersey. The children's dates of birth and names don't match up.
  • Sarah, daughter of Isaac, had a brother Garret. He was born in New York, served during the war, and died in Virginia. So, it might be worthwhile to try to track down this family - which had a Sarah Vanmetre/Van Meter and John Rickman couple. See the will info above in the top of the Research section.
  • The only Rickman's buried at the Rickman cemetery are William and Elizabeth. Elizabeth Hollinghorst died 1728 and isn't buried at the cemetery but on the Kittiewan property. At the cemetery are three Poythress family members, a married couple who died in 1847 and 1850 and a daughter Caroline. here. (There is an uncited mention in Flowerdew Hundred Plantation article that there were Poythress owners of Flowerdew Hundred Plantation, too.)
  • There are no other Rickman graves found in Charles City and no other 18th Century Rickman graves in Virginia here at Findagrave.

I hope this helps a bit.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:31, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Add "other".–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:36, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am also guessing that Jesse Riley Rickman's mother or grandmother may have been a Riley. It's a name that carries through in several generations after Jesse, too. (My family has a woman's maiden name that flows through the middle name of three generations of men).–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:49, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Update above about EG's comment.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:55, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There were a number of Rickmans in Halifax County, Virginia throughout the 1800s. See Carrington, Wirt Johnson. A history of Halifax County (Virginia). Richmond, Va.: Appeals Press, 1924. Marriages. p. 484.
There was a Robert Rickman (perhaps father of William) in Halifax, VA in 1782. Jackson, Ron V., Accelerated Indexing Systems, comp. Virginia Census, 1607-1890. Compiled and digitized by Mr. Jackson and AIS from microfilmed schedules of the U.S. Federal Decennial Census, territorial/state censuses, and/or census substitutes.
No other records, but there are genealogy trees for Rickmans who died in Halifax, Virginia.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:09, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's a John Rickman who was born and died in Virginia, served in the State troops during the Revolutionary war, died after 1786. Wife, no name, died after 1762, presumably after daughter's birth. Daughter Anne married Tapley Bynum (b. 1762). U.S., Sons of the American Revolution Membership Applications, 1889-1970.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:15, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There's a John Rickman, born 1740 in Virginia, died after 1800, married to Sarah, daughter Anne who married Tapley Rynum or Bynum (I think) who was born in North Carolina and died in Kentucky, John's father Thomas Rickman of Halifax County, VA, SAR ID 98528 U.S., Sons of the American Revolution Membership Applications, 1889-1970.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:25, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am all tapped out. Perhaps there are more historical records, newspaper articles, books, JSTOR articles, etc. for Rickmans in Halifax County, Virginia; Van Meters and Rickmans in Hampshire County, Virginia; and Rickmans (and perhaps Rileys) in Mills River, Henderson County, North Carolina.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:54, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Harrison family

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It seems that beyond his Revolutionary war service, the best connective information for Rickman seems to be the Harrison family and Kittiewan. There wasn't a lot of information about it as Milford, but there may be more with alternate spellings like Kittawan. In addition, there may be books about Harrison family members that provide more insight into Rickman's and Elizabeth's years in Charles City from 1769 through the early 1770s - and perhaps earlier. It seems that Rickman became interested in the colonial cause in 1771 when Jefferson came to his house. It would be nice to find out how they met. I think I have been making too much about his working as justice of the peace for The Crown in 1772 - it was a means for resolving issues with the British government and may not be reflective of loyalist leanings. I will circle back to these ideas after I finish what I am working on right now.

I haven't found usable sources so far, but it seems like his father came to Colonial Virginia sometime in the mid or late 1700s. There's not a lot of great information about his family. It would be interesting to find out if Robert, who seems possible his father - and perhaps a brother - had been in Charles City County and then moved with other families to somewhere else in Virginia. This may be the Dr. Robert Rickman from Hampshire, England, I think born in the 1680s with children older than William. Mostly speculation at the moment.

(It helps me to pull my thoughts together here to have a plan for research - and then be able to circle-back on them so I am not missing anything. Any input is appreciated, but not necessary.)–CaroleHenson (talk) 12:36, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source Military history.–CaroleHenson (talk) 12:37, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't found anything usable here. It's possible that information will be found about his family. I have just spent a lot of time on that already and the best material would probably come from county libraries, newspaper archives, etc.–CaroleHenson (talk) 09:13, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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