Talk:William Paca

Italian

There are conflicting citations cited, both without presenting any cinderblock evidence for the following passage:

from a family of English ancestry, .... home-schooled. There is no evidence Paca had any Italian ancestry, despite the claims of at least one Italian-American organization . He

It doesn't appear to be a material element of the article, but since it doesn't contain NPOV and the two citations are conflicting, I am moving it here until further info can be provided. In that case, it should be restated in a NPOV. The home schooled reference should be moved back if it can be supported with a citation.Toddstreat1 23:00, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I have included two references discussing the claims Paca had Italian ancestry. Rewrite the entry as "NPOV" as you wish, but don't remove the information, and don't allow unsourced claims of Italian ancestry to be added. This quote should give you a sense of the "debate":

An interesting situation arose when one of the sponsors of the Paca House project called me and urged that in my genealogical research it would be helpful if I found that William Paca had an Itlian ancestry. This was because a grant of $10,000 would have been forthcoming if that wre proved to be the case. I had found, however that Paca's grandfather, Travis Weaver, from England, in leaving property to his heirs, used "Paca," and it is in that document where the transition from Peaker to Paca is demonstrated (South 1967j:8). The rumor that the name was Italian came from a remark made in 1911 by Cardinal James Gibbons of Baltimore, who commented that he thought a relationship existed between Paca and the Italian family Pecci (South 1967j: 7). I was not able to say William Paca was of Italian ancestry, disappointing some who had hoped otherwise.

South, Stanley A. An Archaeological Evolution. New York: Springer, 2005. p. 202

In short, Italian-Americans think "Paca" sounds Italian. This is not a sound basis for claiming William Paca had Italian ancestry, and Wikipedia should not be in the business of propagating myths. 213.42.21.156 08:06, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

This is simply a bogus argument. Nowhere has any reputable source suggested that Italian-Americans think Paca is Italian because of how it sounds or is spelled. That's a flat-out lie. The Stiverson and Jacobsen account of his ancestry has been discredited (although the questionable source in the article affirms it over Russo without any considered explanation). Further, there is nothing to suggest that South's work is anything more than one single instance of a conflicting claim in the face of countless alternative sources. It also appears that South has been on a mission, if you will, to specifically disprove Paca's Italian heritage for quite some time with no definitive evidence of same.

It isn't a non-NPOV to include information that is not only widely accepted, but generally considered fact. That said, the inclusion of the information from South, which actually is a non-NPOV as it is a politicized issue originating with that author that does not agree with the traditional understanding of Paca's origin, nor has it garnered much support one can cite by other contemporary historians. If South's unusual claims were to be included, they should appear in a separate section at the end of the article that discusses the contention as is the norm among Wikipedia biographical articles. Chèvre Bleue 05:23, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

No "Italian-American" or anyone else has ever presented primary (or any) sources linking the Paca family to Italy. In the absence of such sources, the claim rests on the idea that "Paca" resembles "Pacca", a name which exists in Italy (or, even more bizarrely, that Paca "may" have originally been spelled "Pecci" as suggested by Cardinal Gibbons of Baltimore in 1911, with apparently no basis whatsoever besides the previous Pope's being named Pecci). This is not how (good) genealogy and history are done. Spellings of the surname of the immigrant, Robert, in contemporary documents include Peaker, Pecker, Peaca, Peca, and Paka, according to Stiverson and Jacobsen. No one has ever reported a contemporary document which spells the name "Pecci" or "Pacci" or even "Pacca".

The other pieces of "evidence" proffered by Italians are so dumb they should require no discussion.

Naming a child "Aquilla" does not suggest you are Italian any more than naming him "Alexander" suggests you are Greek. Aquilla was hardly an unusual name in 18th century British North America--and even if it were otherwise unheard of, I've seen plenty of genuinely strange names given to English children.

There are still living ancestors of Paca, today. They pronounce it Paca (pay-ka).

The final piece of "evidence" is the 1937 NYT letter from an alleged Paca descendant. An unsubstantiated 20th-century claim about a 17th-century or earlier event carries no weight, regardless of who makes it. In this case, it would seem the letter writer, who claims "Paca" was originally spelled "Pacci" (sic), picked up the idea from Cardinal Gibbons. 200.158.136.204 (talk) 21:40, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

ATTENTION: Any editors who care about the reliability of Wikipedia. Quissett (clearly ChevreBleue under a new name) reverted my edits (without replying to the discussion on this page, you'll notice), citing WP:Undue, which is clearly nonsense. I cite published works by recognized authorities on Paca. CB cites web pages (and one--possibly self-published--book, which contains largely unsourced claims). Note, the webpages and book cited by CB don't even agree with each other (claiming, e.g., different places of origin in Italy, different Italian names "Paca" is supposedly derived from, etc.)

I've already expended more time than is probably warranted trying to keep this page reliable. Hopefully there are other editors out there who care enough about the integrity of WP to seek out and confirm the published sources I've cited (and any other reliable sources), rather than letting CB push his agenda on this entry.

I left CB's links in my edit out of courtesy, though they don't belong there according to WP standards. Regardless, I believe a discussion of the Italian ancestry claims is necessary to prevent people like CB from coming through and adding them again (which is what will happen if someone decides to remove all discussion of ancestry from this entry). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.100.34.11 (talk) 03:20, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

References

Waldensian

There is also a claim that Paca was a Waldensian. Is this incorrect? If he was not Italian it seems almost impossible. -- SECisek 05:10, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that claim is incorrect. According to the biography by Stiverson and Jacobsen, "the Pacas were Anglican" (p. 30), and there is no question that William Paca's ancestors lived in England prior to their arrival in America.

I suspect the Waldensian claim is the ultimate product of a chain of spurious inferences starting with the idea that "Paca" sounds vaguely Italian. E.g., "Paca sounds Italian so William Paca definitely had Italian ancestry"; "Someone wrote that Paca was of Italian descent, so his ancestors must have arrived in America from Italy"; "Most/all Italian who arrived in early colonial America were Northern Italian Protestants, so William Paca's ancestors must have been Waldensians". 195.145.228.46 04:09, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Amazing how these things get started. -- SECisek 18:13, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I would encourage the anonymous editor above to cite sources that agree with (a) there is research to indicate that because Paca sounds Italian, it has been assumed he was Italian; (b) that any reputable source suggests his ancestors arrived from Italy and not Britain; (c) that any significant group of Italians who came to America from Northern Italy or any other part of Italy were Protestant; and (d) any verifiable source associating Paca with the Waldensians.

There is nothing in your entirely spurious and sourceless response that is based on any information published in any reputable source. The idea that Northern Italians or their American descendants were largely Protestant ever is absolutely laughable. Chèvre Bleue 13:41, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

No "verifiable source associating Paca with Waldensians" exists, just as no "reputable source suggests his ancestors arrived from Italy and not Britain". That's the entire point. That has not stopped people claiming Paca was Italian and Waldensian. As clearly stated, I laid out how I "suspect" such myths may have grown.

Depending on how you define "significant", no "significant groups of Italians" came to America in the colonial era, period. The relatively few Italians who did arrive in that time frame were disproportionately non-Catholic. If I need to tell you this, you clearly have no grasp of American history. 200.158.136.204 (talk) 21:18, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I think this is pretty ridiculous because- really, what does it matter if he was Italian? But here is what my family history says- take it or leave it. My ggrandfather- born in 1861 was a Peca- lived in Abruzzi, Chieti area but the family was originally from Albania and came across the Adriatic Sea in the 15th Century rather than convert to Islam. They are called Arberesh in Italy. According to my ggrandfather, William Paca (or Peca depending on how you pronounce), was an ancestor. There is a small village in what was Albania called "Paca" and that is the origin of the name. So if William PACA was Italian he was probably also part Albanian.

Personally I could care less. Either he is or he isn't. I suppose we could do some kind of genetic test to prove a common ancestor but it doesn't matter to me. I tend to believe my family account based upon the face that my ggrandfather had no reason to lie, and it did not affect his life in any way shape or form. He was an Italian immigrant (with a brother Aguilar) who assimilated into American life and to our family was just an anicdotal story.

I think it is fairly odd that some of you are pretty heated on whether he was Italian or not- as if it somehow is an insult to you or the State of Maryland???

Pecapacawhatever (talk) 20:02, 20 November 2008 (UTC)PECA

This is an interesting discussion. But checking out his family tree, his last traceable ancestor who could've plausibly been Italian was the aforementioned Robert Paca, who was his great-grandfather. Even if Robert Paca was fully Italian, that would make William Paca only 12.25% Italian. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 05:38, 1 May 2010 (UTC)