Talk:William Edward Petty Hartnell

Discussion

Can we talk here?Gwlach (talk) 21:02, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, this is the appropriate venue to talk about an article, not a user's personal talk page. Please familiarize yourself with WP:talkpage so that you know how to properly open new discussion and follow proper procedure. Cristiano Tomás (talk) 21:04, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Early Life

"an affluent Westmorland family. The family's wealth was lost however when the principal benefactor under the will of Hartnell's grandfather William Petty, eldest son John Petty (one of Hartnell's uncles), was declared bankrupt in 1806."

In my view the above extract from my recent edit is the minimum to best describe what again in my view was a key factor in Hartnell's later life i.e. he was born as a Gentleman but without the means to sustain the status. It is relevant to the events described in the opening paragraph of the Marriage section.Gwlach (talk) 10:18, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

This is not an article on his family, nor is his family past notable. All that is merited to be mentioned is simply that the family wealth was lost, not how or why. Cristiano Tomás (talk) 20:50, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Roney incorrectly states that Hartnell had to leave the college in Bremen because his father had died:

"Hartnell was sent to the College of Commerce in Bremen at the age of 16, but had to leave the following year because of his father's death. William's father was the provider for the family. His death in 1815 left the family with no estate. Young William Hartnell was forced to find a job in order to support himself and his family. He cared very much about the welfare of his mother and siblings, and worked hard to help them live a good life."

Hartnell's father died in 1807(which begs the question of what was the real reason he left Bremen?). One can only assume that it was his uncle Edward that sent him to Bremen as Edward would have survived the loss of the family wealth because he had received an individual inheritance of £500 from his father William Petty. John Petty's bankruptcy in 1806 is very relevant in understanding the course of events that affected Hartnell in his childhood and perhaps contributed to his well-documented character weaknesses. In Hartnell's case I firmly believe my description at the beginning of this section is appropriate. Gwlach (talk) 22:07, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Nathaniel Hartnell 1805-64

Nathaniel Hartnell was William's younger brother. He was an artist and engraver of some note who was awarded a silver medal by the Royal Academy of Art. His painting The Picnic sold for £17,500 in 2001.(In my view I think it very possible that the young man in the centre of the painting studying a book is a depiction of William with mother and sister. Nathaniel sent a portrait of their mother to William so was in the habit of painting family members). Nathaniel does not have a wikipedia article - would he be notable enough to have one? I'm sure it would be of interest to buyers and owners of his works to know of his background and connection to William.Gwlach (talk) 21:13, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

It is very important you don't hypothesize on anything outside of the content of reliable sources, that would be WP:Original Research and that is one of the gravest violations of wikipedia policy. Including content based on assumptions like "it very possible that the young man in the centre of the painting... is William with mother and sister" or "One can only assume that it was his uncle Edward that sent him to Bremen as Edward would have...." or any other idea that is not sourced is absolutely not allowed on this site. In regards to Nataniel Hartnell, based on a Google search, he does not seem notable in any regard as an artist. Winning a single silver medal among the thousands of different competitions held by the Royal Academy over the centuries hardly makes him notable, and most of the buzz online is related to The Picnic, which is an obscure painting at best. I wouldn't recommend creating an article on him; I'd say he only merits a brief mention like "His brother Nathaniel Hartnell was a artist" or something of the like.Cristiano Tomás (talk) 03:24, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. Yes I already understood about not hypothesising in the article but wasn't sure if it was permissible in here. Point taken. As regards Nathaniel I see nowhere suitable to insert him so will leave him out. I'm not sure if I've added the Bancroft reference correctly?Gwlach (talk) 16:47, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

British Colonisation

@Cristiano Tomás: In deciding to revert my edit regarding the British Colonisation did you take into account the following sentences on the Robert Crichton Wyllie article page?:

"His cousin Hartnell provided detailed reports encouraging British settlement of California. He was involved with Manuel Micheltorena, governor of Alta California, and Wyllie proposed a plan to buy land in Sacramento Valley and colonize California in 1843"

And have you read Wyllie's letters to Hartnell of 5 Nov 1843 and 17 March 1844?--Gwlach (talk) 20:45, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Regardless, unless the House of Commons report explicitly mentions Hartnell (it doesn't) or some initiative/incident which he was directly related to, this parliamentary hearing is of no relevance to the article. Cristiano Tomás (talk) 23:02, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

There is an article entitled: Proposals for the Colonization of California by England: In Connection with the Mexican Debt to British Bondholders 1837-1846 within the: California Historical Society Quarterly Vol. 18, No. 2. Pages 142-44 of this article describe "Wyllie's efforts towards colonising California 1843-44".
The article refers to the fact that the Mexican debt to British bondholders (on which matter Wyllie was an authority), gave rise directly or indirectly to many rumours of British designs on California which in turn led to the aforementiond question in the House of Commons.
Wyllie was responsible for an initiative, albeit unsuccessful, and Hartnell was directly related to that initiative. The British Prime Minister said: "I have seen a great many reports as to the undermining ambition of Great Britain". I suggest that the Wyllie/Hartnell initiative would fall within these, even if not explicitly mentioned. I ask again if you've read Wyllie's letters of 5 Nov 1843 and 17 March 1844 as without reading those I don't believe it's possible to form a properly considered opinion.--Gwlach (talk) 01:04, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

Arrival in Alta California

@Cristiano Tomás: There are a number of images of the Hide House plaque kicking around including this one - https://www.hmdb.org/m.asp?m=127026 - which might sit well alongside this section but I'm not sure about copyright, uploading etc. Any thoughts?--Gwlach (talk) 23:02, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

@Gwlach: Images are uploaded on the Wikimedia Commons. They can only be uploaded if they meet the required levels of copyright attribution, freedom of use, and other peculiarities that you can learn about here: Commons:FAQ. Those images would not be eligible to upload. To upload an image you must be able to provide three key pieces of information: #1 copyright license (Anything that you upload must be in the public domain, or under a free license), #2 authorship, and #3 provenance. I'll take a look when I have a chance and see if I can find anything that fits the bill. Cristiano Tomás (talk) 23:43, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Wyllie alias Richard Hartnell -

In the light of new information I have deleted everything I wrote here pending further research.--Gwlach (talk) 18:10, 15 November 2021 (UTC)