Talk:William Hamilton, Duke of Hamilton

Biography: Peerage and Baronetage / Royalty and Nobility

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Requested moves

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move. This is essentially reversing a series of two previous undiscussed moves. Hopefully any further moves will be discussed here first. Andrewa (talk) 00:02, 26 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

William Douglas, Duke of Hamilton → William Douglas-Hamilton, Duke of Hamilton - (Discuss) This man was not "William Douglas" and "Duke of Hamilton" at the same time. He became Duke of Hamilton when he assumed the name Hamilton, so this article can only be titled William Douglas-Hamilton, Duke of Hamilton. He was not William Douglas, Duke of Hamilton at any point of his life. Surtsicna (talk) 23:20, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Move or Don't move followed by reason and ~~~~

Move see my reason above Surtsicna (talk) 23:20, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Exccuse me?

This man , my great to the power of "x" grandfather was not called William Hamilton, he was William Douglas-Hamilton, 3rd Duke of Hamilton de jure uxoris. This page will be moved back to William Douglas-Hamilton, Duke of Hamilton within the next few days if there are no objections? Brendandh (talk) 23:07, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cut and paste moves

Cut and paste moves are unacceptable. He was certainly never "William Douglas, Duke of Hamilton." If you can provide evidence from reliable sources that he used the surname "Douglas-Hamilton," please do so, and propose a move. This is, indeed, what Cokayne calls him, and what Cracroft's Peerage calls him. ODNB, on the other hand, says he just changed his name to Hamilton. Double-barreled surnames seem to have been rather rare in the 18th century, but it seems like a case could be made - when the general reference works disagree, it's best to turn to more detailed sources. But you need to actually make the case, and then you need to get an admin to do a proper move, not a cut and paste, so that the article history stays with the article. john k (talk) 03:53, 4 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Son of - or - brother of

pls look at Lord William Hamilton, here mentioned as a son - the wikilink is not correct. Hendrik van Holland (talk) 07:59, 24 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 24 May 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page to any particular title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 20:26, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

William Hamilton, Duke of Hamilton → William Douglas, Duke of Hamilton – Moved without explanation or discussion several years ago. Talk page complaining about this move to wrong name. Please see this entry in Dictionary of National Biography and other sources [1][2][3] —Мандичка^YO 😜 10:51, 24 May 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. Dekimasuよ! 21:39, 1 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 20:53, 24 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think this needs a full discussion. A look at the move history shows the reason "This is how he is named by, e.g. ODNB. Hyphenated surnames were not in common use in the seventeenth century. He simply changed his name from Dougl" for the initial move and "was named "Douglas" and then changed it to "Hamilton". Nobody used double barreled surnames in the 17th century." and the last move was several years ago which is quite some distance to revert now. A glance at Duke of Hamilton shows various versions of the family name in use over the years. Timrollpickering 11:25, 24 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- He did not change it to Hamilton. He adopted the arms and name of Hamilton in addition to his own - see his quartered Douglas-Hamilton shield. His children used various versions, and the 2nd Earl of Selkirk was just Douglas as he inherited Douglas titles. —Мандичка^YO 😜 22:09, 24 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Wikimandia and Timrollpickering: Queried move request. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 20:54, 24 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: It should be either William Douglas (his primary name) or William Douglas-Hamilton (name he adopted later, but he's not really known by that - see DNB entry), but it is certainly not William Hamilton, which is why the undiscussed move should be reverted, no matter how long ago it occurred. This is not a high-profile article so moves like that go under the radar. —Мандичка^YO 😜 22:00, 24 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support: per nom. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:241:300:C930:D025:93F1:966:3BC5 (talk) 22:35, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support as per —Мандичка. עם ישראל חי (talk) 18:44, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Although he was born Douglas, by the time he was Duke he had adopted the name of Hamilton. He was never "William Douglas" and "Duke of Hamilton" at the same time, so the proposed title is inaccurate. Opera hat (talk) 10:06, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- That's simply incorrect. See numerous reliable sources as to how he is referred. And there is a difference between adding a name and adopting it in lieu of the original name. —Мандичка^YO 😜 13:15, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Er, no. I deliberately avoided opining on whether he adopted the surname of Hamilton in place of or in addition to that of Douglas, but you can't deny that he did adopt it before his creation as Duke. If you had proposed a move to William Douglas-Hamilton, Duke of Hamilton then you might have had an argument, but your proposed title is just wrong. Opera hat (talk) 21:51, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Tagging User:John K and User:Surtsicna who have commented on this before. See also the 2011 discussion at Talk:Duke of Hamilton. Opera hat (talk) 13:08, 2 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. "Hamilton" is more common on Google Books.[4][5]--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:01, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Name

Late to the move discussion, but worth noting that Wikimandia is linking to the (old, obsolete) Dictionary of National Biography entry, rather than the current Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, which calls him "William Hamilton [formerly Douglas], third duke of Hamilton". The ODNB says that "The following day [29 April 1656] he and the duchess were married in Corstorphine church, just outside Edinburgh, and it was presumably then that Selkirk [the man we're talking about] changed his name to Hamilton, in accordance with yet another condition of Duke William's [the previous duke] entail." Now, as I said before, and as Opera hat says in the discussion, there may be some reason to think that "William Douglas-Hamilton" is better than William Hamilton. I'd be willing to entertain the argument, if there's some evidence, but nobody's bothered to make it. Until such evidence arises, I think we should follow the ODNB. john k (talk) 20:20, 18 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]