Talk:Why Women Kill

Is Tommy a recurring or main character?

Sources list Tommy as a recurring character (1), but CBS lists Tommy as a main character (2). Jayab314 17:48, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Recurring, per on-screen credits, which bill him as a guest star. Bluerules (talk) 18:06, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

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Discussion at Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2019 August 25#File:Why Women Kill, season 1 socialites.jpg

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2019 August 25#File:Why Women Kill, season 1 socialites.jpg. Jayab314 10:10, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Whether or where shall we include each episode title's referencing dialogue?

While translating I realized that every available episode title plays on a relatively famous movie dialogue (except #3 from a comic strip). Following on this I gathered the "referenced" dialogues and their movie origins.

1. Is this considered as original research?
2. If it is not, where shall we include such information?
   1. At the end of each episode summary;
   2. As footnotes…
      1. …at the end of "Episode" section;
      2. …or around "Reference" section;
   3. A separate section.

Skywayer (talk) 16:07, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

@Skywayer: This is not original research. I do believe that should be mentioned in the article. I would suggest putting it in a subsection under the Episodes section below the table. Jayab314 16:34, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

@Jayab314: Thanks for the prompt response. I would appreciate if you happen to know any other show/wikipage with an example for such subsection.

Right now I am thinking of adding { {notetag} } right after each episode title, and put all these "footnote" right after the episode table.Skywayer (talk) 17:00, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

@Skywayer: Well it's not an exact replica, but the Amazing Race uses quotes from the contestants as episode titles. A section is dedicated to the episode titles to show who said them, but there is no episode table. (See The Amazing Race 31#Episode title quotes) I'd say either option is fine with the footnotes or the separate subsection. Jayab314 17:03, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

@Jayab314 Thanks and that's simpler than I thought. Well, I am a procrastinator… so it probably gonna take a while ╮(╯▽╰)╭ Skywayer (talk) 18:06, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

I've edited over a hundred TV pages and haven't seen anything like this done before. The closest I've seen is how editors handled Blindspots episode title anagrams & puzzles each season. It's not original research and in the event of dispute it will come down to local consensus, which means as long as editors are happy with it being on the page you're fine. Consider me one of those people OK with it. Esuka (talk) 20:08, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment and explanation. Sorry that I haven't been here lately.

Despite wikipage practices, title parody seems rather common among TV shows. Fargo season 2 is another example playing with world famous literature titles. Such references tend to indicate the major theme beyond its appearing dialogues, while writers rarely talk about them in the public. However, such subtle yet critical information is not always obvious to audience other than critics. This is why I consider them worth mentioning beyond fan-sites. Skywayer (talk) 17:12, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Citation needed?

As Esuka pointed out, "title parodies" section seems rather unprecedented. Yet I haven't been able to find any direct source stating the show intentionally chose each episode title based on a cinema catchphrase. This is why I raised above discussion and then added that each title itself plays on a mentioned dialogue.

1. Is it really necessary to find and add such sources? Or shall I change the wording to "resembles"?
2. If we weren't able to find such sources, could anyone confirm with show-runners on semi-public SNS's?
3. …or shall we simply move this "footnote" section to the end?

I am also confused by Alex 21's edits without discussion or acknowledgement of linked wikipages:

1. Am I supposed to provide primary sources like movie scripts for each mentioned dialogue, even some have already been mentioned or itself has a wikipage?
2. Am I supposed to validate AFI's 100 Years...100 Movie Quotes on this TV page as well?

Skywayer (talk) 17:12, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

@Skywayer and Esuka: I think Alex 21 meant in his edits that it is original research because there is no source from CBS or really from any other TV news site that has come out and specifically stated that they were a play on words from famous quotes, even though it seems obvious. It isn't exactly necessary, but it is noteworthy, at least to me. It should be mentioned where it is currently as it explains the episode titles (they don't make much sense in relation to the episode and its plot). I think the point of contention is if it is original research. To answer the section's title, a citation would be needed in order to validate it no matter how obvious it may seem. Jayab314 22:49, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation again. I'll probably just free-ride and wait for anyone confirming with sources or producers. Skywayer (talk) 23:37, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping! (This page isn't on my watchlist.) Yes, realizing that the titles are parodies or reference or whatnot without a source backing it up is textbook original research. You have personally made the connection and inserted it into the article. That's OR, and that's what needs a source. See the Blindspot episodes article for a similar example (as previously mentioned); all title anagrams are reliably sourced. Even the fourth season's title puzzle was solved on Reddit, but has not been included in the article, as no reliable source has reported on it yet. If it can't be sourced, then don't add it. -- /Alex/₂₁ 00:29, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

Changing "Jade" to her real name

@YoungForever and Bluerules: At the end episode 8, which was released today, Duke tells Taylor that Jade is not Jade's real name. Her real name is likely to be revealed in episode 9. When it is, should we change all mentions of Jade to her real name (in the episode summary, character list, etc.) or just keep it as Jade as that's what she's known by for a majority of the series? Either way we decide, the character list should say

• Alexandra Daddario as [real name] "Jade",...

Jayab314 13:09, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Keep it as Jade in episode summaries where she's known as Jade because that's what she's referred to. Calling her a different name than what she's known by at that point in the series would confuse readers, so we generally refer to characters by the name they commonly receive. For example, Theon Greyjoy is referred to as "Reek" in the Game of Thrones episode summaries where that's his primary name. Once her real name is revealed and it's established in the summaries that's her real name, we can transition from Jade to her real name, unless she's still predominantly referred to by Jade. As for the character list, keep the fictional name as "Jade" for now, but have it say "Jade / [Real Name]" when we have a definitive real name. Bluerules (talk) 13:36, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Bluerules on this sentence: Keep it as Jade in episode summaries where she's known as Jade because that's what she's referred to. When her real name is revealed, the character list should say "Jade (né Real Name)". — YoungForever^(talk) 14:50, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Is there a guideline on how to refer to characters with more than one name in a character list? Using a slash to separate the names seems to be the common approach; I haven't seen "(né other name)" used before. Bluerules (talk) 19:23, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

I recommend using the common approach then, which would say "Jade / [Real Name]". — YoungForever^(talk) 20:43, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

So we've decided to keep all mentions of Jade as "Jade" in the episode summary until this point. If multiple characters start using her real name to address her, we can discuss about changing future mentions of her. The character list will say

• Alexandra Daddario as Jade / [real name],...

Jayab314 22:30, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Correct. We'll know more about how to handle referencing her in the episode summaries when the next episode airs, but her name is the character list is rather straightforward. Bluerules (talk) 16:59, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Proposal to create a List of Why Women Kill characters

@Bluerules and YoungForever: The characters section of the article has become very expensive and drawn out. With the upcoming season 2 with all new characters and storylines, I say the List of Why Women Kill characters article is almost inevitable as I see it.

I want to start a discussion over if we should create this page now or wait a little longer. Jayab314 00:06, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

I'll say it is too soon to create a whole separate article for List of Why Women Kill characters. — YoungForever^(talk) 00:21, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

@YoungForever: When would you start considering starting the article? At the start of season 2? Jayab314 20:38, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Not until at least towards the end of season 2. — YoungForever^(talk) 21:49, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

If you're confident that you can produce a page with enough content and sourcing to avoid any deletion attempts, I would suggest creating a draft page and add to it over time. Be aware though that if you create a draft and don't add to it after a certain amount of time it could be deleted. You are aware of how to create "draft" pages right? They're not mainspace articles until someone reviews and approves. Esuka (talk) 22:03, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

@Esuka and YoungForever: Yes, I am aware of draft pages and have created some before. I will start working on it and will add to it whenever I have the chance. Jayab314 22:32, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

The draft can be found here: Draft:List of Why Women Kill characters Jayab314 23:19, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

@YoungForever: Can I get your opinion on the draft so far? I would hate to write all the character's summaries and then have to change them. Thanks! Jayab314 23:01, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

Lose the episode appearances tables. Per MOS:TV, we don't include episode appearances. They sounded more of episode summaries rather than character descriptions. — YoungForever^(talk) 23:10, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

@Jayab314: Not much I can do to help you out putting them together since I don't watch this series but if it helps you out / if you want to use them, {{Infobox character}} can be used on the page as well. Similar to List of Hawaii Five-0 (2010 TV series) characters where each of the main characters have an infobox. TheDoctorWho (talk) 23:58, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree with the others that we need more characters and seasons before this series gets its own character page. As far as the current draft goes, I recommend that Alexandra Daddario's character be primarily referred to as "Jade", not "Irene Tabatchnick" because that is the name she is primarily referred to in the series. Even though "Irene Tabatchnick" is the character's real name, "Jade" is the name viewers most identify with her. For comparison, April Bowlby's character in Doom Patrol is really named "Gertrude Cramp", but the article primarily calls the character "Rita Farr" because that's the name she's referred to as throughout most of the series. As perhaps the best known example of this, Jon Snow is still mainly called "Jon Snow" in his article and Game of Thrones-related articles even after his real name is revealed because "Jon Snow" also remains the name he's mainly called by in the series. Bluerules (talk) 14:44, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Podcast

@Bluerules and YoungForever: Should we mention that CBS All Access also made a six-episode podcast called "Why Women Kill: Truth, Lies, and Labels"? Should we also give it a short episode table, or maybe even a whole article? Jayab314 23:13, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Not enough significant coverage to warrant a separate article for the six-episode podcast. — YoungForever^(talk) 23:27, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

@YoungForever: But definitely a section in this article? Jayab314 23:29, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

If there are reliable sources to support the info of the podcasts, then it can be added to this article. — YoungForever^(talk) 23:41, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

@YoungForever: Apple Podcasts, Art19, Stitcher, Spotify, Player.FM, New York Times

I should note that the fifth episode is being released tomorrow and the final episode will be released on the 25th. Jayab314 23:47, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree with YoungForever. The podcast isn't relevant enough to have its own article, but its connection to the series warrants inclusion in this article. Bluerules (talk) 14:25, 24 October 2019 (UTC)