Talk:When Marnie Was There (film)

Synopsis (Story) vandalism

I wrote the synopsis myself, based on having seen the movie in theaters three times. Do not falsely claim it as "non-free content" or remove it, as this constitutes vandalism and will be reported.Jmaeshawn (talk) 21:33, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

"Based on having seen the movie in theaters" you say? This is your own word - "Replaced the summary of the original book with my own translation of the movie's official summary". 95.37.29.228 (talk) 00:47, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

PS And yes, i know japanese enough to compare "There is a magical circle in this world that no one can see. There are those who are in the circle, and those on the outside. I'm on the outside." and "この世には目に見えない魔法の輪がある。輪には内側と外側があって、私は外側の人間。" from official summary. This is simle translation. 95.37.122.196 (talk) 01:00, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

That line, "この世には目に見えない魔法の輪がある。輪には内側と外側があって、私は外側の人間。" happens to be a direct quote of the first line of the movie, and is important to understand the character of Anna. Since I have now seen the movie a total of 7 times, I can now write an extra-long, detailed version since you seem to prefer that over my summarized, spoiler-free version. But that line stays as small quotes, when used for the purposes of commentary, count as fair use. And I still don't appreciate your vandalism of my work, as I'm only trying to help people who aren't lucky enough to live in Japan and understand Japanese to know what the movie is about because the movie is unlikely to be released outside of Japan for at least a year.Jmaeshawn (talk) 13:12, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

"Known in Japan"

The phrase "Known in Japan as..." occurs all over the place, but always seems to me to be wrong. To an English speaker in Japan the film is (probably!) known by its English title; this is really the title in Japanese. After all, omoide is a Japanese word. But in Japanese the name of Marnie is Mānī, not 'Marnie' (however that would be pronounced, if it were Japanese). Is there any good reason we cannot simply say "Japanese title [...], literally... "? Imaginatorium (talk) 15:06, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

It's not a 'good reason' per say, but the way the title is currently formatted is Wikipedia standard for Anime-related articles, which is why you'll see it worded that way on almost all Japanese anime pages, and why it should remain as-is for consistency. Also, as a native English speaker in Japan, we do call it "Omoide no Marnie" through the use of code-switching when speaking to other English speakers in Japan because pronouncing it as Mānī when speaking English is annoying to say and sounds unnatural.180.53.6.40 (talk) 20:48, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Plot Length

The current plot section is 2319 words long. The Wikipedia Manual of Style for Films states that plot section should be between 400 and 700 words. Please can someone trim the current plot down to the correct size? Thanks. David Bailey (talk) 20:20, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

If you want it to be shorter, that's fine, but please let me shorten it myself. I'm almost certain no other English speaker has seen this movie as often as I have (8 times) to know what details are important and which are not. And I'm also pretty sure according to that Wikipedia Manual of Style for Films you linked to, the "dream immersions" Anna sees on a frequent basis as well as the flashbacks to the past make it somewhat difficult to fully understand the plot, and means that the plot section requires additional explanation to explain the somewhat non-linearity they cause.Jmaeshawn (talk) 22:40, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

That's OK Jmaeshawn. Take your time over it. I had a similar problem when writing the plot section for Ocean Waves. My first draft was twice the length of the one that's there now. I took me a while to slim it down, but constantly re-reading and revising sentences eventually yielded results. Look at your use of language; trim flowery metaphor and unnecessary detail; don't use five words where two will do; and move information about the characters from the plot section to a new Characters (Cast) section.

For example, consider your sentence "In order to help Anna, Yoriko decides it's best to put her on a train and send her away from the polluted air of her home city of Sapporo, to a small village on the shores of northern Hokkaido and have her stay with her relatives, Kiyomasa and Setsu for the summer." (52 words). This could be re-written as "To help Anna, Yoriko decides to send her from the polluted city of Sapporo to a coastal village in northern Hokkaido, to stay with her relatives, Kiyomasa and Setsu, for the summer." (32 words). David Bailey (talk) 13:21, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Edits reverted without adding summary

It has already happened twice that my edits have been reverted without including a rationale in the summary. More specifically, my adding of the official North American website (first edit (reverted by user OttonielWhite), second edit (reverted by IP user 186.7.250.238)) and the organization of the cast in a table format (link to edit, also reverted by IP user 186.7.250.238)).

The first time, I assumed it was frowned upon to include a Template:Facebook link and the edit was reversed on this basis. Now, I'm suspecting someone is actively preventing other users from editing the article. Specially, when the table I included follows the exact same format the ones included in other Ghibli movie articles like The Wind Rises and The Tale of the Princess Kaguya, has adequate sources, and does not omit previously included information. I would like to know what can be done to avoid edit wars in this article. Thoughts? Jotamide (talk) 18:36, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

OttonielWhite is currently blocked for having repeatedly reverted editors like you without any edit summaries, and then not responding to queries about their editing. They were previously blocked for the same issue under the username Elindiord, and then began using sockpuppets (see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/OttonielWhite). In all likelihood, they are once again evading their block by editing while logged out. I would encourage you to file a new report at SPI to report this behavior. Conifer (talk) 21:45, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

I started experiencing internet problems soon after I reverted the table which didn't let up until this morning. First, tables to list the cast is not a standard practice, and I consider them unsightly in this case. I was about to reformat and consolidate the VA sections, but said internet problems prevented me from pushing the updates. I'll try to get to that later this morning. —Farix (t | c) 11:39, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

First of all, thanks for dropping by and explain the resoning behind the reverts. Now, you say that in your personal opinion you consider tables unsightly. However, the third bullet point on WP:FILMCAST states clearly:

Tables are also recommended to display different casts, such as a Japanese-language voice cast and an English-language voice cast in a Japanese animated film.

So while a simple bulleted list is enough for most film articles, for Japanese animated films, the dubbing work damatically changes the performace from one language to the other. Therefore, presenting the cast information in a table is not only allowed but encouraged in order to easily compare voice actors from one language to the other. Based on the guidelines from WP:FILMCAST I'm afraid I will have to revert your edits and re-instate my version. As a final word: may I suggest looking at tables for casts of other animated films such as Summer Wars? Here, information is not only presented neatly, but also in a very informative way. I hope we can work together to bring this (and other Ghibli film) articles to this level of polish. :) Jotamide (talk) 15:51, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

It's stylistic - Wikipedia does not have a mandatory or required format. All things should be based on the individual needs and development should be natural and effective with the flow of an article. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:09, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

@ChrisGualtieri: While it is a stylistic thing, the various MOS pages are there to be followed, and if you deviate from what is in the MOS, be prepared to have a good reason to back up that deviation. (@TheFarix: Thinking the tables are "unsightly" is not a valid reason to revert someone who was following established guidelines meant to create a consistent look and feel from one article to the next. The table should not have been reverted in this instance. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 21:33, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Personally, I think tables are hard things to make look nice, especially when you consider different people use different browsers and have different screen sizes. I think this is what MOS means when it says Use tables with care due to their complexity. Most lists of anime characters with actors tend to look like (just picking one at random, no other reason) Haibane Renmei#Characters. That said, I'm not convinced it's worth too much angst to debate between the two formats. If one format has a clear advantage, be bold. --Unready (talk) 21:43, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Literal translation

@121.54.32.161 and Nihonjoe: There has been some to-and-fro on this. Here's how I see it:

• "Marnie of memories" is not really coherent English.
• "Memories of Marnie" is not really a literal translation.

The head of the Japanese noun phrase is unambiguously "Marnie", qualified by being the Marnie of someone's memory/ies. I guess this essentially means the first person, (protagonist, narrator, whatever) so I inserted a square-bracketed "my". If someone thinks a different possessive pronoun is more appropriate, I'm open to that. Comments please. Imaginatorium (talk) 09:27, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

• • There's been no "to-and-fro" on my end. I simply reverted the incorrect edit by someone who doesn't know both English and Japanese well enough to attempt translation. If you want an absolutely literal translation, "The Marnie of My Memories" is about as close as you will get in English. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 20:37, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Psychiatric hospital vs sanatorium

In plot section the place where Marnie was admitted after Kazuhiko's death is currently referred to as a psychiatric hospital. In both the original version and the English dub of the film the place is referred to as a sanatorium and Anna described it as a place where people go to get better after Sayaka got confused. However according to the Wikipedia article for sanatorium they were built for the treatment of long term illnesses such as tuberculosis but declined as TB ceased to be a major health threat. Many sanatoria had since been converted for other uses so the sanatorium in question might have been a psychiatric hospital in a converted sanatorium but there no such information to cover this in the film. I might have misread and misheard sanitarium, which is a kind of health resort, as sanatorium but I currently do not have easy access to the film to check. Tk420 (talk) 20:58, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

After wondering if sanatorium has a different connotation in Japanese I tried translating the Japanese article for it using Google but it is open to errors and as far as I can decipher sanatoria there are also used for the treatment of mental illnesses. Tk420 (talk) 21:21, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

Explanation for Anna seeing Marnie

At the time of writing this the article suggests that Marnie is a ghost. I had seen both the original version and the English dub of the film but I do not remember any mention of Marnie being a ghost although Kiyomasa Oiwa, who Anna was staying with, liked to tell ghost stories. I think it is likely that Anna was in a time slip which is the paranormal phenomenon in which one travels through time by unknown means and is used as a plot device in fantasy and science fiction. This would explain how Anna saw the mansion in good repair when she saw Marnie's time unless haunted houses are depicted differently in Japanese culture (in Western culture haunted houses usually remain dilapidated (if the house was already in that state) when the ghosts are seen). Tk420 (talk) 20:03, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

• This does not contradict European or Asian ghost ideas. You can find a lot of ghost stories where the protagonist sees the illusion that he is in the past. Moreover, the theory of time travel contradicts the canon, where Marnie saw Anna as her future husband and never met her in reality. Solaire the knight (talk) 00:15, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

Implication of lesbian relationships

Hello to all. On the Internet, I several times saw the statement that the original story was supposedly meant as a hidden qeer representation, and Ghibli allegedly deliberately gave the film a similar interpretation. However, I could not find any sources that could confirm this and not be interpreted by yuri fans or western progressive geek journalists. So, I wanted to ask if this topic has any authoritative sources, or is it just original research and third-party interpretations? The question is also complicated by the fact that any qeer understanding of work somehow gives this work the implication of lesbian incestuous relations between a girl and her grandmother, which clearly looks like nonsense. Solaire the knight (talk) 00:10, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

@Solaire the knight: Yes they are gay for each other, and will note that Yonebayashi didn't even add that to the story, it's something that's already clear in the book (which also doubles down on the incest part). That being said, yes we would need a reliable source to support this interpretation/be notable theme. I've been digging into reviews of the books and haven't found anything so far. JAYFAX (talk) 19:40, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

I don't see any authoritative source that has confirmed this in any way other than fan interpretations. Not to mention that even you yourself find it incest-ish, which is clearly contrary to the original intentions of the author or Ghibli. Solaire the knight (talk) 12:01, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

@Solaire the knight: Okay I found dead tree review in the New York Times titled "Animating a Friendship With Shadows" by Jeannette Catsoulis, 22 May 2015. There are two interesting comments she makes:

British author Joan G. Robinson will seem a simple tale of friendship found and unhappiness banished. Others, however, could experience the story's sweetly supernatural drift as a veil for gnarlier intimations of child abuse, sexual awakening, ethnic confusion, and even mental illness.

Later writes

Unfolding in painstakingly realized interiors and painterly landscapes, "Marnie" is a muddled merger of a ghost story, fantasy, time travel and coming-of-age. Fighting all of these, however, is a first-love story — a passionate connection between two damaged souls. This becomes quite explicit when Anna, perpetually dressed like a boy, jealously watches Marnie dance with a young man, then questions their mutual devotion.

It's a good review that more generally talks about the themes of Marnie, and also is slightly critical of it, but I think this is worth including. JAYFAX (talk) 16:30, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Again, these are all interpretations, but I was looking for a source that would confirm the intentions of the authors. The film unequivocally says that the main character was "in the body" of her grandfather during flashbacks, but it says nothing about any actual or even more lesbian attraction between them, not to mention that the idea of ​​incarnating in the body of her grandfather to develop a romance with your grandmother sounds pretty creepy. We can say that the main character experienced the memories of her grandparents, but nothing more. As far as I can see, neither the book nor the movie was marketed as romance in any form (which seems forced even here, since even the author calls it a film about friendship). Which is pretty obvious because of the implications that arise. Solaire the knight (talk) 12:06, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

About the new {{for}} template

To help readers looking for the article about the novel, I decided to add it in with this edit. I know it's mentioned in the introduction, but it seems like it would be useful. Let me know if it's overkill. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 01:44, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Changed it to an {{About}} instead. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 01:59, 5 March 2023 (UTC)