Talk:Western Krai

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On 11 September 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Western Land. The result of the discussion was not moved.

Zemie Zabrane

Authorship removed:

Western Krai (Russian: Западный край) or Stolen Lands (Polish: Ziemie Zabrane) is an unofficial name, introduced in 1834 by a Polish historian Maurycy Mochnacki

Besides the confusing sentence structure, the term "zemie zabrane" was known well before, eg. Congress of Vienna (1815)[1]. I tried hard to find the origin of the term, with no success; neither the origin of the attribution to Mochnacki (who indeed frequently used this term even before his death (1834) :-( (or the publication of Powstanie narodu polskiego w roku 1830 i 1831) ). Staszek Lem (talk) 22:13, 3 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Name

Ping User:Marcelus. Should this be under Russian or Polish name? Right now this is using Russian... _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:48, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why not English? Western Province. Or are we talking about Taken lands vs Western krai? Marcelus (talk) 23:28, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Marcelus I started a proper RM below. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:23, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 11 September 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 12:21, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The current name is a mix of English and Russian. Per WP:USEENGLISH, why not use all English? While the "Western Krai" is used in English sources, so is "Western Land" for this context ([2], [3], [4] (this work also uses the term Territories instead of Land). "Western Territory" is an English alternative name used in some sources: [5], [6], [7], [8].

The same is true for Northwestern / Southwestern Krais, which are also referred to some scholars in full English and NW/SW Lands: [9] (click view all uses to see uses for NW/SW in the book), [10], [11], [12] (territory), [13] (territory again).

Note I don't have a preference in land vs territory, whatever the majority votes for will be ok with redirects from alt names (Northwestern Territory, Southwestern Territory, plus possibly names with dashes and wihout like North West Land, North Western Land, South West Land, South Western Land, North West Territory, North Western Territory, South West Territory, South Western Territory, which are also used here and there in this context, for example here: [14], [15] etc). (I didn't list the variants with dashes, also used...). It does appear that the term territory is a bit ambigious however, so land may be better for disambiguation reasons.

Two additional notes: yes, the full English names are a bit generic and occasionally are used to refer to other regions of the world, such as Canadian or American land or such. And I did consider the Polish terms ("Taken Lands") but they are not neutral. So my preference is to use English, and if needed, we can deal with alternative meanings through disambigs and hatnotes and such.

PS. For consistency, please note that Vistula Krai redirects to Vistula Land already and has been stable under that name for many years. There is also the Krais of the Russian Empire which at this point is little but a disambig, sigh. For more contextr, see also Krai. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:57, 11 September 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 08:41, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support per WP:USEENGLISH.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 09:57, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
~~oppose~~ Proposed titles are pointlessly vague and would require further dabs where as the current tiles are already wp:NATURALDABs—blindlynx 13:51, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Blindlynx The redirects and dabs are needed anyway even now, as people may search for this under fully English names which are common in sources too. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:27, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That said, a good target for most redirects from terms mentioned above may be Northwest (disambiguation) and Southwest (disambiguation). And I guess Western Region. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:32, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
True maybe something like 'Western Land (russian empire)'?—blindlynx 14:38, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Blindlynx I wouldn't be opposed to a disambig in the very name, although I do wonder if we shouldn't be then also RMing Northwest Territory to Northwest Territory (United States) and ditto for Southwest Territory -> Southwest Territory (United States)... _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:09, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Piotrus I'm all for that —blindlynx 03:11, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Blindlynx Just a note that such a RM was closed as no consensus for NT few years back (see that artcle's talk page). No RM was ever done for ST. Do you think we should try again? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:46, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
After this gets closed certainly—blindlynx 16:29, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Commonest names and the proposed names are far too ambiguous. WP:UE does not mandate translating everything into English. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:43, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: In this context, "Land", "Territory", and "Province" are all ambiguous or inaccurate.

But the least objectionable of these terms might be better than "Krai", which is meaningless to Anglophones.

Which English term would be historically the least ambiguous or inaccurate?

If one of them is chosen, for immediate disambiguation it would be well to follow it with "(Russian Empire)".

Perhaps "Region" would be a reasonably accurate rendition of the Russian Krai?

Thus: "Western Region (Russian Empire)"; "Northwestern Region (Russian Empire)"; "Southwestern Region (Russian Empire)".

Were any of these regions subdivided into equivalents of today's oblasts (provinces)?

Nihil novi (talk) 18:54, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We do not rename articles because certain words are "meaningless to Anglophones". This is an encyclopaedia, not an idiot's guide for those who cannot be bothered to follow a blue link. I speak as an Anglophone! -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:54, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose as "land" or "territory" is super generic and obscures the meaning even for editors familiar with the topic. "Krai" is a lot more distinctive and a lot more specific. Renata•3 01:18, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose the proposed titles have large numbers of uses in different regions. -- 65.92.247.226 (talk) 05:56, 24 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.