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I've seen 'Western Desert Language' written in inverted commas a few times, and it seems to be an alternative name for a bulk of Wati languages, rather than one of the languages. Can someone sort this article out?

Sorry, I thought it was fairly clear. The WDL is a single language, but it is composed of a number of dialects, some of which are well-known and often referred to themselves as languages. Do you think this point needs more explanation? Dougg 00:08, 5 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for a bit of prodding! I've expanded the article considerably, though there's a lot more that needs to be done. I'd be glad to hear how it reads. Dougg 01:05, 5 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Dougg. I'm sorry that I forgot to sign my question above. It is unlikely that SIL will give an ISO 639-3 code to the Western Desert Language as it has already given individual codes to its dialects (SIL is often characterized as a splitter). Thus, there is a huge gulf between ISO 639-2=aus and the dialect codes. One would have to resort to an extended coding like aus-WDL to specify Western Desert Language without specifying which dialect is intended. As I have done for other languages, I've added the individual dialect codes into the infobox, as it seems odd to leave that field empty, waiting for something that is not going to happen. I've also reworded the headings according to WP:MOS. Thanks for your work on Australian languages, we could do with more editors who are interested in them. --Gareth Hughes 13:30, 5 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for all that! Dougg 00:05, 6 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Palatal stop

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Is the palatal stop [c] actually transcribed as tj? I would think it would follow the pattern of the other palatal consonants and be written ty.  –Benjamin  (talk)  22:06, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In the practical orthographies in use the palatal stop is spelled either j or tj. I'm pretty sure that there are no varieties of the WDL which currently use ty, although I think this spelling was used by some early researchers Yes, it is inconsistent, but that's not a rare thing in orthographies, eh! Dougg 23:19, 6 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And is it really a dorsopalatal stop, or is it a laminopalatal/postalveolar stop, as in apparently all other Australian languages (even Yanyuwa, the one with the 7 places of articulation)? David Marjanović 16:00, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dialects vs. languags

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These well-known dialects are often referred to as 'languages' however, technically-speaking, they are dialects.

I would like to ask what this "technical" difference is, especially since this statement appears to be contradicted in the dialect article:

There are no universally accepted criteria for distinguishing languages from dialects, although a number of paradigms exist, which render sometimes contradictory results. The exact distinction is therefore a subjective one, dependent on the user's frame of reference.

— Hippietrail 23:17, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Techincally (by that I mean within the discipline of linguistics) dialects of a language are mutually intelligible varieties which differ in systematic ways from each other. In this approach two speech varieties are described as different languages if they are not mutually intelligible, and as dialects of the same language if they are. Of course 'mutual intelligibility' can be pretty fuzzy and hard to assess (even for native speakers), and has numerous political ramifications. How about I add something to that line you quote from Western Desert Language clarifying this? I think the dialect article needs a bit of work too, it doesn't seem to me to make the linguistic definition clear enough. Dougg 02:15, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I've made some amendments to the article, hope they're satisfactory. Dougg 02:35, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that. I'm not sure the technical definition is quite clear enough though. For instance I believe I have read that languages at the extremes of a dialect continuum may not be mutually comprehensible. I have also read that there exist dialect continua which contain two accepted languages, I believe the example I read was Dutch and German have a dialect continuum between the two countries where speakers of one dialect can always understand their neighbours but German and Dutch speakers certainly can't understand one another. — Hippietrail 19:35, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it's certainly true that there are problematic cases. As you say (and as discussed at Dialect continuum) in some dialect chains the extremes are not mutually intelligible, and so count (in linguistics' usage) as distinct languages, although every pair of neighbours are mutually intelligible. This makes it difficult (maybe impossible) to draw a line where one language ends and another begins. But in the case of the Western Desert Language all varieties appear to be largely mutually intelligible, so the problem does not arise (though it possibly would have if given another few centuries of time for change to take place--the main change taking place now is loss). Dougg 03:40, 9 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, the dialect continuum should be divided along more or less logical borders, preferably major isoglosses or isogloss barriers. A well-known example indeed is the continental West Germanic continuum, which you refer to above: you can easily travel from the island of Texel in the Netherlands to the town of Eisenstadt in Austria and the dialects remain mutually intelligible from place to place. But northern Hollandic isn't really the same language as south western Austro-Bavarian. There are actually, linguistically spoken, many more languages than just Dutch and German (this is of course an oratio pro domo since the Limburgic Wikipedia is my baby). It seems unlikely to me that the differences in the WDL are that large (why else would linguists call it one language), even though the area where it is spoken is presumably bigger. However, perhaps it would be nice to see how broad the differences are. Caesarion 09:54, 9 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Line removed

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I've removed, "Technically-speaking however, they are dialects as they show a very high degree of mutual intelligibility, especially between neighbouring varieties." — I think it makes more sense without this sentence. It might be interesting to have some information on any standardised varieties of this language/these languages which exist. - Francis Tyers · 16:07, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Syntax

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We be needin some syntax up in this bitch.

Feel free to contribute, if you are able! I'd love to learn more about the syntax of "Wangka Yuti". yoyo (talk) 14:58, 29 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect 'standard form' in infobox?

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In the infobox, it states that 'Martu Wangka' is the standard form of the Western Desert language. However, this redirects to Maduwongga which is an article about a specific people. Is this intentional and I have misunderstood something, or is this a mistake? FropFrop (talk) 13:30, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, that's incorrect. I've fixed the link so it now points to Martu Wangka dialect, although I'm not sure it's really appropriate to have any Western Desert variety listed as a 'standard'. 'Maduwongga' is a term recorded by Norman Tindale and is generally thought to have been an error. Dougg (talk) 01:47, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seeking comments/feedback for table of dialects

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Hi everyone, I'm seeking comments and/or feedback on a table of dialects and people of the Western Desert language. In my opinion, the current list of dialects and people is in a sorry state. I hope that this table will make the subject matter more accessible and will lead to the articles on the specific peoples and languages being improved.

One element of the current list that could be argued to be better is the fact that it includes information on the dialects' and peoples' locations. However, I think having this information being written out improves the section and it would be better displayed as labels on a map (which is what I plan on doing next).

I constructed this table from the ground up, using a variety of sources to check what are well attested languages and peoples. The three which I relied upon the most are:

  • AIATSIS's AustLang.[[1]]
  • Bouckaert's & Bowern's 2018 paper.[1] See the paper's supplementary material for why they think their list of Wati dialects is reliable.
  • Dixon's 2005 book and his given list of the Western Desert language's dialects.[2]

Other sources were used, for example the Mobile Language Team's and various language centres' websites.

When I finished the table I checked what languages and peoples were included in the Western Desert language's list and what was missing from the new table. I then checked if any that I had missed were well supported or not. So I have done my best not to miss any but I wouldn't be surprised if some number slipped through.

Quite a few in the current list are poorly supported, or have been proved to be fictions. I've tried to provide reasoning for each rejection in the table on my draft page here:User:FropFrop/Draft_Western_Desert_languages_list#Not_Supported

Below is the proposed table. Please let me know if there are glaring issues or any minor tweaks that should be made, or if you think it's ready to be posted.

Proposed Table for Western Desert Language Article

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The Language/Dialect The People Notes AIATSIS Reference
Antakarinya dialect Antakarinya people C5: Antikirinya[3]
Kartujarra dialect Kartujarra people A51: Kartujarra[4]
Kokatha dialect Kokatha people C3: Kokatha[5]
Two dialects of the Western Desert language have been named 'Kukatja'; Kukatja (A68) and Kukatja (C7) Kukatja (A68) and Kukatja (C7) A68 is in the north of Western Australia near Lake Gregory, and C7 is west of Haasts Bluff in central Australia.[6][7]
A68 is one of the dialects that make up Martu Wangka at Jigalong.[8]: iii 
C7 call themselves 'Luritja' now.[6] 		A68: Kukatja & C7: Kukatja[6][7]
Kuwarra dialect Kuwarra people There is little information regarding the language but the people are well attested.[9][10] A16: Kuwarra[11]
Luritja dialect Luritja people The Kukatja (C7) call themselves 'Luritja' now.[6]
Pintupi and Luritja are two similar but overlapping dialects.[12][13] 		A7.1: Luritja[12]
Manyjilyjarra dialect Manyjilyjarra people One of the dialects that make up Martu Wangka at Jigalong.[8]: iii  A51.1: Manyjilyjarra[14]
Mantjintjarra dialect Mantjintjarra people A33: Mantjintjarra[15]
Martu Wangka dialect Martu people Martu Wangka refers to either a dialect found at and around Jigalong, Western Australia[8]: iii [16] or many different dialect groups in the Gibson, Little Sandy and Great Sandy deserts.[16] A86: Martu Wangka[16]
Nakako dialect Nakako people Little is known of the people and their language[17] A32: Nakako[18]
Ngaanyatjarra dialect Ngaanyatjarra people A38:Ngaanyatjarra[19]
Ngaatjatjarra dialect Ngaatjatjarra people A43: Ngaatjatjarra[20]
Ngalia dialect Ngalia people C2: Ngalia[21]
Pindiini/Wangkatha/Wangkatja dialect Pindiini/Wangkatha/Wangkatja people These three dialects & people are hardly distinguishable.[22][23][24] A102: Pindiini, A12: Wangkatha & A103: Wangkatja[22][23][24]
Pintupi dialect Pintupi people Pintupi and Luritja are two similar but overlapping dialects.[12][13] C10: Pintupi[13]
Pitjantjatjara dialect Pitjantjatjara people C6: Pitjantjatjara[25]
Putijarra dialect Putijarra people One of the dialects which make up Martu Wangka at Jigalong[8]: iii  A54: Putijarra[26]
Tjupan dialect Tjupan people A31: Tjupan[27]
Wangkajunga dialect Wangkajunga people A87: Wangkajunga[28]
Yankunytjatjara dialect Yankunytjatjara people C4: Yankunytjatjara[29]
Yulparija dialect Yulparija people A67: Yulparija[30]

References

  1. ^ Bouckaert, Remco R.; Bowern, Claire; Atkinson, Quentin D. (12 March 2018). "The origin and expansion of Pama–Nyungan languages across Australia". Nature Ecology & Evolution. p. 743. doi:10.1038/s41559-018-0489-3.
  2. ^ DIXON, Robert (2004). AUSTRALIAN LANGUAGES Their Nature and Development. p. xxxvii. ISBN 051103783X.
  3. ^ C5 Antakarinya at the Australian Indigenous Languages Database, Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies
  4. ^ A51 Kartujarra at the Australian Indigenous Languages Database, Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies
  5. ^ C3 Kokatha at the Australian Indigenous Languages Database, Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies
  6. ^ a b c d C7 Kukatja at the Australian Indigenous Languages Database, Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies
  7. ^ a b A68 Kukatja at the Australian Indigenous Languages Database, Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies
  8. ^ a b c d Burgman, Albert; Marsh, James; Hansen, Ken; Booth, Joshua (2005). Martu Wangka Dictionary and Topical Finderlist 2005 Draft. South Hedland, Western Australia: WANGKA MAYA Pilbara Aboriginal Language Centre. ISBN 1875946152.
  9. ^ "Kuwarra". Goldfields Aboriginal Language Centre. Retrieved 2 July 2024.
  10. ^ Liberman, Kenneth (1980). "The Decline of the Kuwarra People of Australia's Western Desert: A Case Study of Legally Secured Domination". Ethnohistory. 27 (2): 119–133. doi:10.2307/481223. ISSN 0014-1801. Retrieved 2 July 2024.
  11. ^ A16 Kuwarra at the Australian Indigenous Languages Database, Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies
  12. ^ a b c C7.1 Luritja at the Australian Indigenous Languages Database, Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies
  13. ^ a b c C10 Pintupi at the Australian Indigenous Languages Database, Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies
  14. ^ A51.1 Manyjilyjarra at the Australian Indigenous Languages Database, Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies
  15. ^ A33 Mantjintjarra at the Australian Indigenous Languages Database, Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies
  16. ^ a b c A86 Martu Wangka at the Australian Indigenous Languages Database, Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies
  17. ^ "Nakako". Mobile Language Team. Retrieved 2 July 2024.
  18. ^ A32 Nakako at the Australian Indigenous Languages Database, Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies
  19. ^ A38 Ngaanyatjarra at the Australian Indigenous Languages Database, Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies
  20. ^ A43 Ngaatjatjarra at the Australian Indigenous Languages Database, Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies
  21. ^ C2 Ngalia at the Australian Indigenous Languages Database, Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies
  22. ^ a b A102 Pindiini at the Australian Indigenous Languages Database, Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies
  23. ^ a b A12 Wangkatha at the Australian Indigenous Languages Database, Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies
  24. ^ a b A103 Wangkatja at the Australian Indigenous Languages Database, Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies
  25. ^ C6 Pitjantjatjara at the Australian Indigenous Languages Database, Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies
  26. ^ A54 Putijarra at the Australian Indigenous Languages Database, Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies
  27. ^ A31 Tjupan at the Australian Indigenous Languages Database, Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies
  28. ^ A87 Wangkajunga at the Australian Indigenous Languages Database, Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies
  29. ^ C4 Yankunytjatjara at the Australian Indigenous Languages Database, Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies
  30. ^ A67 Yulparija at the Australian Indigenous Languages Database, Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies

FropFrop (talk) 04:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Hello FropFrop, I'm planning to do some editing/expansion of the new table of WDL varieties that you've created (and well done by the way, while I think it still needs work it's a great start!). But I'm curious to see your reasons for rejecting some of the varieties that were in the old list – I note your page providing that reasoning has been deleted, are you able to post it here?

While I agree that quite a few in that previous list are poorly supported, I'm curious which ones you think have been proven to be fictions. Cheers! Dougg (talk) 06:31, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Dougg I'll fix the link to the draft page. Here's the link in any case: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:FropFrop/Draft_Western_Desert_languages_list
If what you're looking for isn't in there or it's in need of clarification I'm happy to discuss. I'm sure that I've made mistakes.FropFrop (talk) 07:47, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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