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Archive 1

Done some removal of images and clearing up of justifications

Article I felt, was messy with too many images (2 of low quality) and paragraph titles being pushed out of place by the images. I have "been bold" and cleared this up, but I feel the article is still biased. (195.82.104.122 12:35, 3 July 2006 (UTC))

Neutrality Point of View (NPOV)

Nominated for NPOV check. With statements such as "These are the best dogs to get and are extremely adorable" this is clearly opinion and bias. Navywings (talk) 03:34, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

You managed to find some vandalism, not an NPOV issue. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 04:57, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

The "personality" section is junk.199.1.137.105 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:35, 18 November 2009 (UTC).

Better picture; Removal of Picture

  • free license
  • this dog (Bassica) has better racial feautres
  • the icture of the westie in the pink sweater is unnecessary and not very good quality. This is not flickr. I propose for it to be deleted.

A.J. 14:17, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

References

There are a lot of statements in the article that do not have references and seem, IMO, to be POV. Here are a few examples:

West Highland White Terriers are a breed of dog known for their spirited personality and brilliant white coat; their devotees often call them simply Westies. They are friendly, good with children, and thrive on lots of attention.

We need references for their personality and for their character (friendly with children?).

Some Westies have "brandy stains" on their backs and/or feet, but this is undesirable in show/breeding specimens.

We need references for the 'brandy stains' and a better explanation as to what they are and why they are undesirable (and who says so).

This one I don't know about; coats must be white per breed stds and anything else is a fault. Elf | Talk 03:01, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

In short, I think the article needs a thorough cleanup. I will have a go somepoint soon - but if someone else can have a go it would be good. -localzuk 01:28, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Some items to be folded in/ref'd:
  • "...is all terrier and needs no pampering...thrives on plenty of attention...excitable temperament." New Encylcopedia of the Dog (cited in various articles)
  • "Full of self-esteem, this hardy, active, and game little dog... Breed is alert, courageous, and self-reliant, but makes a friendly and charming companion." Encyclopedia of Dog Breeds (ditto).
  • From FCI breed standard (haven't looked at others yet): "Small, active, game, hardly, possessed of no small amount of self-esteem with a varminty appearance. Alert, gay, courageous, self-reliant but friendly."
  • Yes, they're known for their white coat & they are called Westies. So far I don't see a specific mention of children but I've looked in only 2 books. Elf | Talk 02:47, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
  • More from the breed club listed in ext links:
"Are they good with children
This is highly dependent on adult supervision and the age of the children. If the adult in charge has taught the children proper respect for the puppy’s rights and care of the puppy, Westies and children can be a happy combination. Children, particularly 10 and older, can enjoy playing a good game of soccer or catch with a Westie. They are sturdy for their size.
No child should be the primary caretaker of any dog. This must be an adult’s responsibility.
Westies are not recommended for the home where children from the entire neighborhood gather to play. This can lead to too much excitement for a Westie and may lead to unintentional nipping."


OK, one more note in looking at the history page--looks like I added pretty much all the info ([1]) and since I'm not a westie expert, it all came out of books on my shelves. That was almost 2 years ago, before there started being a push to cite references for everything. For most the the dog articles that I filled in, I pulled a bunch of books out, read, made notes, consolidated the info, and created the article. As I started looking this stuff up (again), I remember how bloody long it took to assemble all this info & I'm not really in a mode of spending an hour or 2 doing the research all over again. So take a look at the history link to see what I added & rest assured that it all came from the breed standards and/or published mainstream books. For what it's worth. Elf | Talk 02:59, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Bias

This article seems to fawn over Westies, and doesn't address their intelligence.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.166.19.197 (talk • contribs)

So Be Bold and do something about it. If you don't want to do that, what do you think is wrong with it? -Localzuk (talk) 12:05, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
"Westies are great with children and are really cute. From personal experience, Westies actually grow an attachment to one member of the family and for example: my Westie is expecially fond of me. When I walk into my house with the rest of my family, i am greeted first before anyone else. They are very sensitive while sleeping and perk up at any sign. When disturbed while sleeping, they growl. They often move while sleeping for example: biting at an imaginary item, moving their paws as if though they are playing with a ball, growling. They seem very interested in young children/babies as if though they are seeing another dog. (very interesting) They take long naps. They love walks and get agitated and bark when left alone for too long. or else they play with anything they have, often becoming destructive when left alone for even a few moments. A saying from Garfield is 'YOU HAD TO BUY HIM A DINGLE BALL RIGHT?!?!" I think this is because they have to do something and a common annoyancce is when the Westie wants to play, he starts playing with his favorite toy and then the Westie getting annoyed when not given the attention he wants and starts barking. They are highly inteligent but rare in parts of Korea." - I'm taking the liberty to remove this paragraph from the Temperament section as it is POV and doesn't sound academic Macdyne73 04:39, 2 January 2007 (UTC)macdyne73
Good call! That para is terrible! -Localzuk(talk) 07:37, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Removing one photo

I am removing this image because I feel that it doesn't add to the article in any meaningful way, it's just a small, blurry, diagonal photo (that and the caption "westy is happy"). Pharaoh Hound 13:14, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Images: How many are appropriate?

Indeed, many images have accrued again. Do they add to the content in the correct manner? For instance, would just one image convey the 'look' of the subject enough? I would expect more senior editors to revert or delete, so I have not done this, for concensus' sake. Refsworldlee 12:54, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

However, eventually I did. Refsworldlee 13:43, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Superfluous image

Could we please have a discussion about Image:Westie.JPG? Hopefully the contributor who keeps adding the image will join the discussion, and we can all decide once and for all whether it is in actual fact superfluous. It appears to me to be superfluous to the content because:

  • it does not add factually to the content
  • other images better serve the purpose of illustrating the Westie breed
  • other images are of better quality for that purpose.

Refsworldlee 13:29, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I would say that as it stands (as of this revision) it is fine. We have an example of the breed in the infobox, one of the 'smiley' look which is common to the breed, one of a pup and one wearing a kilt (although this one might be a little close to being silly - so I wouldn't lay down my life for it). Any others would be pointless.-Localzuk(talk) 17:42, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Absolutely agree - I can live with cute, kilt-wise. But the revision you quote above does not stay revised that way for long (check out the history). You are vastly experienced as an editor - do I pugnaciously remove it every time I see it re-entered, or leave well enough alone at some point? Refsworldlee 20:16, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Well I would say just go ahead and remove it each time it appears and ask the editor who added it not to and to come here and discuss it.-Localzuk(talk) 03:17, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm quite happy to enter any discussion about Image:Westie.JPG. I hope the editor who reinstates it so often will join us. Refsworldlee(chew-fat) 19:22, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

On the completely frank side--the photo's color is wrong and it's out of focus. Other than that, the only thing you can get from this photo is what the face is like, of which we already have two much better examples in the article that have the added benefits of showing the rest of the dogs' bodies, also. So, yes, just keep on removing it and referring to the talk page in your edit summary. Your invite to the user on their talk page is about the only thing that one can do. Elf | Talk 05:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Change of section heading: "External links" to "References"

After discussion with another editor, who cited WP:EL guidelines regarding external linking to web sites, it became clear that the section headed "External links" was not only against those guidelines in its content, but actively encouraged the addition of links which were irrelevant to the main body of the article. I am hoping consensus can be gained retrospectively for the changes made today. The content of the References section now concentrates solely on confirming and expanding the sum total of the information laid out in the preceding article. Thanks. Refsworldlee(chew-fat) 21:54, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

That should be something taken up with the Wikipedia:WikiProject_Dog_breeds as this would affect all 500? 600? dog breed articles. Meanwhile, what was there just now was a complete duplicate of what was in the infobox, with no specific references in the article to any of the items, so I removed the section. It's been assumed that breed descriptions come from the cumulative info in the infobox. Maybe there's some way to state that explicitly in all the breed articles. Elf | Talk 03:21, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
My personal opinion is that any section headed "External links" is always a carrot for linkspammers, and there's no guarantee that links placed there will be necessary or relevant. I will of course always police this aspect while engaged in Wiki editing. However, if the project coordinators feel that West Highland White Terrier should have an "External links" section, then of course I would not revert its reintroduction. For my part, I would need to be totally convinced as to relevancy and necessity regarding any links placed there. It was established that additions to Rescue Organisations, for instance, were creating a link directory, and I am afraid I believe that also applies to Clubs & Societies, which is why all were removed. Their only relevance would have been if there was NO linking at all to Kennel Clubs & Councils i.e. as an aid to cite the information contained in the article, for example Breed Standard quotes.
I agree completely with the decision to remove the repeat linking to Kennel Clubs & Societies - I had not fully examined the linking in the infobox to be honest (I have not been editing for long!). Refsworldlee(chew-fat)(eds) 16:09, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Oh, I absolutely agree that it's an invitation for people to put links to their dog's photo pages or whatever. We've been fighting that ever since forever. But it is a wikipedia convention, not just the dog breeds convention. "References" has been reserved for items or sites that were specifically used to provide some of the content of the article, with relevant footnotes. So there needs to be some other heading for "other places with relevant encyclopedic information but that wasn't necessarily used in the creation of this article," and "External links" is what's been used. You could also consider going in, whenever you remove those inevitalbe extraneous links, and inserting a comment that's visible only when someone edits the list--like come up with a standard comment you can insert everywhere, similar to:
<!-- Add links only if they are noncommercial, encyclopedic or scholarly references, not personal or commercial sites. -->
I've done stuff like that before where there was some kind of common problem. Elf | Talk 05:56, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Great idea. Done. Refsworldlee(chew-fat)(eds) 15:09, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Criteria for "External Linking" - archived discussions outside this talk page

Hi. Below are copies of discussions which took place at User talk:Localzuk#Removal_of_links_which_might_be_considered_a_Link_Directory, and User talk:Refsworldlee#Links_on_Westie. Please feel free to cross-reference. Meanwhile, chronologically, they would look like this if included on this talk page:

Hi - I notice you have reduced the amount of external links contained at the bottom of the article West Highland White Terrier, citing WP:EL. Having read the resource, I am inclined to agree with you; however, I would like to know why, in your opinion, the remaining links should remain, and in what way they do not represent entries in a 'link directory'. This will further aid me in my experience as an editor and in making future balanced decisions whilst editing. Thanks! Refsworldlee(chew-fat) 20:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

The remaining ones are actual Westie clubs so contain information directly relevant to the breed as a whole, compared with the rescue ones which are only specific to rescue (which is not a breed specific thing). However, I would not be against the removal of the remaining ones and links adding to the dmoz sections [2] which covers them all.-Localzuk(talk) 20:38, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Better still, linking only to Kennel Clubs (AKC, EKC, AusKC, etc.) for each country, under an altered section headed 'References' rather than 'External Links', which I think encourages poor use of the linking in the article. From those Kennel club sites, referrers could then obtain details of officially recognised Clubs AND Rescue Organisations. Would you be happy with that? Refsworldlee(chew-fat) 21:17, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Indeed I would. Sounds like a good idea. -Localzuk(talk) 21:22, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Done. By the way, of course rescues are breed-specific - there are thousands. For example, the Westie Rescue Scheme was not formed to help any other breed, although of course by conscience it would. If that's the context in which you meant it? Just for argument's sake of course! Refsworldlee(chew-fat) 22:00, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

What I mean is that all breeds have rescue centers and rescues, and thousands of them at that, but there are only a handful of proper breed clubs around the world but then the kennel clubs cover this anyway.-Localzuk(talk) 22:17, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

If you ever met me, you'd see that I have very few hairs I could spare to split, so sorry about that last comment - I see what you mean now! All the best Refsworldlee(chew-fat) 22:21, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry about it. It's nice to have someone asking legit questions and not trolling like on many of the articles I work on. Cheers, Localzuk(talk) 23:03, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I have incorporated these discussions into this page because of their relevance, and to help explain why any "External links" have to be very notable in themselves as references to the breed in the article (other than those links already contained within the infobox), otherwise they risk being removed. Thanks. Refsworldlee(chew-fat)(eds) 14:23, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Image of Westie with Christmas hat on

Hi. How is this image relevant to the breed's visual depiction? We have one photo of a 'lion cut', relevant to grooming for showing, we have one to show typical 'happy' expression, we have one to show what a puppy looks like, and we have one which shows the very relevant clan tartan on the Westie. While the Christmas hat is cute, it doesn't have anything to do with the descriptive article it was added to. I have therefore removed the picture, and invite anyone to comment on this below, or on my talk page here. Please remember that Wikipedia is not a photo album. Merely re-adding the picture will be treated as possible vandalism, unless a good reason can be given for its inclusion. Thanks. Refsworldlee(chew-fat)(eds) 20:46, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

"Apartment dogs"

Hi. It's my understanding that the reference in the article to apartment dogs can be taken to mean dogs who either are not, or cannot be, given walks. To say that a Westie can be an apartment dog if given walks is therefore a total contradiction. I have explained this to one editor who added just that. Thanks. Refsworldlee(chew-fat)(eds) 22:18, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

OK - that was one of my edits. As long-time highrise dweller with an active Westie - as well as many neighbors with Westies - we thought that the statement "they do not make good apartment dogs - was misleading. However, I appreciate the opinion above and will remove my reference. Thanks for so much great information! Marcomman 13:26, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Removal of notable Famous Westies

Hi. Today, a notable Westie was removed from the article, with a claim that the Westie was non-notable and did not Google (top results on my search). For this reason, I have re-instated the information along with a reference to notability from the internet.

Let's also remember that people who do not live in the country where the dog food commercial is shown will naturally not be aware of relevant notability - however, if you were to ask citizens of the country about the dog, it follows that you would no doubt receive hundreds of confirmations as to the fame of the dog.

I for one am always happy to be proved wrong, if I really am. I also naturally welcome any genuine improvements to articles. Frivolous deletion of material, however, in this and any article I contribute to will be resisted. Thanks. Refsworldlee(chew-fat)(eds) 14:42, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Westie photos from dog show

I think it's good idea to add pictures of Westie from dog show. All Westies in article are "home version" and are far from standard. I try to add only dog with known pedigree and with excellent judges appraisal. 85.222.18.15 19:05, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

The images contained in the article have been added and changed over a period of time to give readers a sense of what to expect to see when coming in contact with the breed. The vast majority of readers will never come anywhere near a show. Those with an intense interest in showing or attending shows don't need a Wikipedia article to help them understand what the dog will look like after being prepared. Basically, this article is one for the people, not the specialists. It has to be based on breed standards of course, which are adequately mentioned in the text of the article, and properly referenced so that readers can follow weblinks to find the breed standard pages of the various KCs.
I can understand your enthusiasm where posting images of Westies is concerned, but honestly, if every editor added their own favourite picture to the article, it would become a photo album. That is what the group of editors who keep watch over this article are guarding against.
If you find a better photo than any of the existing agreed four images in conveying the various typical 'looks' of a Westie, feel free to replace it with yours. In all honesty, I was not overly impressed with the quality and size of the ones you added when I saw them, and that's where a problem would lie - convincing all the other editors that the edit is an improvement.
Thanks for posting to the article talk page. If you've any further questions, please return, or post to my talk page. Thanks. Ref (chew)(do) 19:53, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

On a lighter note...

Apparently, the Westie was bred to chase hedgehogs - see here! Thanks to the editor for that, but, although it's true that Westies represent a danger to our spiney friends, it was never intended that they bring tasty morsels of same to the dinner table... Ref (chew)(do) 12:51, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Main image, showing typical Westie

Hi. Today someone changed the very good "all-body" photograph at the top of the article for one which showed only head and shoulders. The introductory image should give as much indication as possible of the look of a Westie. I am also a little concerned once more about the article becoming a scrapbook of contributors' dogs. Previous consensus has agreed on the use of five images as enough to examine every physical facet of the Westie in this article. It therefore follows that any subsequent photograph should be good enough, and of better quality overall, to replace an existing one, unless consensus is changed by posting to this talk page. If there is a better "whole body" alternative, feel free to replace the introductory photo. Thanks. Ref (chew)(do) 20:20, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

"Quick Facts"

Hi. The above infobox has recently made an appearance within the article, in common with many other dog breed articles, I notice. Personally, I don't mind; however, it cannot be situated at the top of the article, as it interferes in some browsers with the established breed infobox at top right. I have therefore (twice) moved it to the bottom of the content, above References, to alleviate this problem. I will also be changing the heading to "Quick facts" to comply with WP:MOS: "Only the first word in a section heading or sub-heading should be capitalized, unless it uses a proper name". Thanks. Ref (chew)(do) 21:07, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

The above now called "physique" within an Overview section. Recent reversion again made due to display concerns highlighted above. Ref (chew)(do) 01:01, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

it was plagiarized

the wikipedia article for the west highland white terrier was plagiarized from the website http://www.answers.com/topic/west-highland-white-terrier

either that or the other ways around...... i'm confused on this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.139.13.42 (talk) 05:23, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi. No, Answers.com (as it always does) provides results and information gleaned from many sources, including Wikipedia. I've had a look, and the section is clearly headed "Wikipedia: West Highland White Terrier". Answers.com will have a GFDL agreement with Wikipedia allowing it to display content from Wikipedia's servers, just as many other "mirror" sites do. The important thing in all this is to make sure you do not use any of the mirrored content as supposed sources for claims made in any articles created or expanded at Wikipedia.
Hope this clears things up for you. Thanks. Ref (chew)(do) 11:53, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Main Image

Today I uploaded and changed a new photo for the main image to one of a whole Westie. I figured it would serve better as it shows the entire dog, rather than just the head and shoulders. Best, Vincent Valentine 14:37, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

"...known for their spirited personality..." - was removed, as it is an incredibly vague and unencyclopedic statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.237.70.112 (talk) 03:53, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Origins as Cairn Terriers

There's a sentence in the History section that states: "Some dog breeders and lovers incorrectly believe that Westies developed from white dogs in the litters of Cairn Terriers."

It references the book, "Man's Best Friend: National Geographic Book of Dogs" which isn't available to me right now. However, the AKC's webpage on Cairn Terrier history states: "The Scottish, West Highland, and Cairn had developed from the same stock, originating in the islands and highlands of western Scotland. The three often were found in the same litter, distinguished only by color." (http://www.akc.org/breeds/cairn_terrier/history.cfm)

Given two reputable but opposing opinions on the subject, I think the section should be modified to reflect both points of view. Any other thoughts before I make the change? Skiguy330 (talk) 23:38, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Lifespan and atopic dermatitis

The average lifespan in the breed survey[3] is 11.4 years. The 12 to 16 years is accurately referenced to the FAQ but the wording that it's from the survey is wrong.

Also I just added the info about atopic dermatitis. There is a part of the text that says the incidence is 17.1% but I suspect that is a mistake as the figure is not found anywhere else. Other places in the article indicates a 23% figure for the still living population and 31% for the dead population. These figures are consistent with the figures from table 3 and 7 so I assume they are the correct ones. The Italian survey[4] also quotes the 23% figure.--Dodo bird (talk) 08:10, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

olive oil for skin?

Can anyone cite a medical site or reference for this claim just added:

"Feeding a Westie a tablespoon of olive oil each week will assist in keeping the skin "hydrated."

I thought I'd read somewhere that that was an old wives tale. Elf | [[User talk:Elf|Talk]] 21:47, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

How the oil will help with hydration I don't know. From what I have read, some people believe that the fatty acids in the oil will help with the dog's skin, but they usually recommend using a supplement instead as olive oil has a lot of calories. Here's an mention of corn oil: [5]

olive oil like most oils and grease and human foods can give dogs GI upset e.g vomiting and diarrhea (some times bloody)and is not recommended to be given to pets by veterinarians. some foods are good for dogs but you should talk to a vet first.

Signed for archiving purposes only.  William Harris |talk  03:21, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

FCI group adapted

The FCI group was changed from 2 to 3, according to the classification on their website http://www.fci.be/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.48.40.223 (talk) 07:57, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the correction, I also realised the link wasn't working and fixed that. Miyagawa (talk) 16:04, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
Signed for archiving purposes only.  William Harris |talk  03:21, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

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