Talk:West End Avenue

Merger with 11th Avenue (Manhattan)

I don't see why not. Honestly, they're the same street. Epicgenius (talk) 20:40, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Please do not merge any NY street articles together, you've done enough damage already. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:30, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

What? But they're the same street! They even have the same character! Epicgenius (talk) 21:37, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but that's ridiculous. West End Avenue's feel is entirely different from 11th Ave's. BMK (talk) 19:05, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, and West 34th Street has a completely different feel than East 34th Street, doesn't it? Aren't they part of the same street, though? It's the neighborhoods that the respective streets are in that causes the street's different feel in their respective neighborhoods. Hell's Kitchen and Chelsea was historically a place of convergence for drug dealers and prostitutes, and is now a hot spot for young rich people; the Upper West Side was traditionally a posh neighborhood. You don't see different articles for the parts of Fifth Avenue in Harlem, Upper West Side, and Midtown, do you? Epicgenius (talk) 00:55, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I support this in principle. The Times, for example, has referred several times to the "Eleventh-West End Avenue thoroughfare". It's one street. The character of the street does change quite dramatically from north to south, but there's no magic transition at 59th. Pburka (talk) 22:28, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Why was this merge reverted? No reasonable objections to the merger (proposed 15 months ago) have been raised. Pburka (talk) 23:22, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

...and now the revert was reverted, but still no discussion. Let's avoid an edit war here and have a discussion. (Reminder: Wikipedia is based on consensus, not majority rule.) Pburka (talk) 00:16, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Since such a large amount of time had passed with several discussions coming up relatively fruitless, I had thought that Beyond My Ken would at least give rest to the concern. He is the only opposer of this merge, so far; even The New York Times thinks the streets are the same thoroughfare with different names, in this article. Honestly, it's like having two identical cars, putting a sticker on one car, and rebranding it as a completely different car. The only difference is that one of the cars will have a certain stigma attached to it, which the other doesn't (i.e. 11th Avenue is full of prostitutes, but West End Avenue is the Fifth Avenue of the West Side). Epicgenius (talk) 00:50, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

It is not true there were no objections -- I objected to it, and the volume of discussion here (3 people) is not sufficient to establish a consensus to make a major merge. I suggest an RfC, which will attract more opinions.

@Pburka: It's certainly true that nothing magical happens at 59th Street, it's just the bureaucratic dividing line which, after all, had to happen somewhere. However, it is very much not the case that the two streets have the same character. Eleventh Avenue is is primarily industrial and commercial, with many automobile showrooms. On the other hand, West End Avenue is primarily residential, featuring large apartment buildings. The two could not be more dissimilar when considering their personalities in toto. BMK (talk) 01:57, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

On Talk:Eleventh Avenue (Manhattan) you appeared to (weakly) support the merge. While there may not be consensus, there certainly was discussion. I think that reverting the change without further discussion was rash. Historically, the streets shared a name until about 1880, and EG is correct that many streets change character along their route, so I think that's a weak argument against merging. Pburka (talk) 02:07, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

P.S. There was nothing "rash" about my undoing the merge -- it's precisely what WP:BRD means: a B'old edit is Reverted when another editor disagree, and 'Discussion follows. BMK (talk) 02:15, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

This edit is not an undoing of a merge. My "*B*old edit was *R*everted and we *D*iscuss" according to your edit summary, but the edit you undid had nothing to do with the split/merge discussion. Epicgenius (talk) 02:17, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Then BRD applies separately it, obviously. BMK (talk) 02:28, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I never said anything about no objections, BMK — I said that you were the only one against the merge. Epicgenius (talk) 02:11, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

And I'm telling you that three people is not sufficient to determine a merge. If this was AfD, a discussion with three people participating would be re-listed for further opinions -- and that's exactly what we need here, more people to weigh in. I have no problem going with consensus when there actually is one, so make an RfC and get a consensus. BMK (talk) 02:17, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

RfC: Merger with Eleventh Avenue (Manhattan)?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Should this article be merged with Eleventh Avenue (Manhattan)? Epicgenius (talk) 02:20, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

What would the new article be called? PointsofNoReturn (talk) 23:09, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

I propose that it be named Eleventh Avenue (Manhattan), as the whole street was originally known by this name. This is consistent with, e.g. Ninth Avenue (Manhattan) ("Ninth Avenue, known as Columbus Avenue between West 59th and 110th Streets, ...") and Tenth Avenue (Manhattan) ("Tenth Avenue, known as Amsterdam Avenue between 59th Street and 193rd Street, ..."). Pburka (talk) 15:23, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Fair enough. I support the merger for the sake of consistency. I also agree that the name of the merged article should be called Eleventh Avenue (Manhattan). PointsofNoReturn (talk) 20:44, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Entirely different uses, zoning, and histories. Residents and observers treat them as separate locations in written and casual discussion of the area. SPECIFICO talk 13:24, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

  By 'entirely different histories', I assume you're not referring to the long period when they shared a name? As mentioned above, the NY Times calls West End the 'renamed portion of 11th'. Can you provide examples of written discussion which treats them as significantly different? Pburka (talk) 13:30, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

  The "entirely different uses, zoning, and history" describes the respective neighborhoods that the street runs through, not the street itself. Upper West Side is zoned differently from western Midtown, and has a different usage and history, so naturally the neighborhoods would be different. Epicgenius (talk) 12:57, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

No. The avenues themselves are zoned, used and discussed differently, your OR speculations to the contrary notwithstanding. SPECIFICO talk 13:05, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Oh yeah. Just like Eighth Avenue/Central Park West/Frederick Douglass Boulevard, Ninth/Columbus Avenues, Tenth/Amsterdam Avenues, York Avenue/Sutton Place, and the uptown, midtown, and downtown parts of 5th, Madison, Park, Lexington, Third, Second, and First Avenues. Read the articles again; each of these entries separated by commas is one article. Especially the 8th, 9th, and 10th Avenue articles describing streets with two or even three names. Epicgenius (talk) 13:27, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

I take it you are conceding my point about zoning, usage, and history. In that case, let's get back to business. Please find Reliable Sources that refer to places, buildings, events, or conditions, along West End Avenue by using the "11th Avenue" name or which state that West End Avenue is commonly referred to as 11th Avenue? That would be more to the point than OR and "otherstuff" arguments. Thanks. BTW, you've omitted many other examples in NYC and elsewhere, such as Lenox Avenue / Sixth Avenue. If you wish to propose a policy or Manual of Style rubric, that could be discussed and evaluated. There's no doubt however that the overwhelming usage of reliable sources and official nomenclature for the past 100+ years has been "West End Avenue" not 11th Avenue for that location. SPECIFICO talk 13:54, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Arguments about zoning and uses are irrelevant. I think the three key points are that, (1) historically, the street was all named Eleventh Avenue and there have been repeated efforts to rename parts of the street,[1][2][3][4] (2) reliable sources often treat the streets as one unit,[5][6][7][8][9][10][11] and (3) merging is consistent with how other Manhattan avenues are treated in Wikipedia. Pburka (talk) 14:22, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

The links you present demonstrate that your conclusion is mistaken. The first one, from a NY Times article, mentions that what was formerly part of 11th Avenue was renamed. The article's title and text refer to the street by its current name. Mentioning that it was once called by a different name but is now renamed clearly supports keeping the WP article title consistent with the current name, giving effect to the 130 year old renaming, just as we do with other geographic features that were renamed in the 19th century or at other times in recorded human history. The second link is to a tourist guide, dubiously RS or a weak one at best. It mis-states the lower portion of Eleventh Avenue in the 20's blocks as being associated with or alternatively named "west end" -- an assertion which we can all agree is incorrect and impeaches that source for any factual assertion. I caution you against using Google results as a substitute for informed research. This googledy-gook book is obviously not well-edited or fact checked. The other sources are, for various reasons, likewise not RS. One's a work of fiction. Another a tourist guide which would suggest that we call Park Avenue "4th Avenue" -- and seems intended to provide geographic orientation rather than description of the range of content in our WP articles about the street. Another is a discussion of history, which is not in dispute here. In short, you've not provided RS which states that West End Avenue is today described as 11th Avenue. At any rate the purpose of an RfC is to attract more editor eyes and opinions to the subject, not to slap weak, contradictory, and irrelevant web links on top of the opinion which is under discussion. Consider posting at various locations which would attract some more editors to the question. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 15:58, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Nobody is claiming that West End Avenue is called Eleventh Avenue. Rather, we're arguing that the two names refer to different parts of the same road, which ought to be treated as a single topic. The sources I provided demonstrate that the two are commonly treated as a single topic by reliable sources. Park Avenue is a great example of a similar street. Our article for Park Avenue describes the entire street, including the parts known as Fourth Avenue and Park Avenue South. Merging Eleventh and West End would be consistent with Park Avenue, and with most of Manhattan's avenues. Pburka (talk) 20:29, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

I just went to the trouble of reading the list of googled instant-references you provided and refuted your baseless characterization of them as "reliable sources." There's no point in continuing to reassert your position, which is already on the record. The only reason either of us should post further here is to respond in substance to the concerns or views of other editors. Please reflect. P.S. As I already remarked above, There are separate articles for Sixth and Lenox Avenues, as well as for Park and Fourth and numerous others. Let's have dialogue here, not repetitious advocacy. SPECIFICO talk 22

59, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Fourth and Park do not have separate articles. Sixth and Lenox don't connect. Check your facts. Pburka (talk) 23:05, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

On one hand, Sixth and Lenox Avenues are different streets because of their completely differing in character, history, and location, notwithstanding their positions on the street grid. On the other hand, there are no separate articles for Amsterdam Avenue (Manhattan) and Tenth Avenue (Manhattan), and for Frederick Douglass Boulevard and Eighth Avenue (Manhattan), even though both of them continue up to the same part of Harlem as Lenox Avenue does, because Amsterdam/Tenth and Frederick Douglass/Eighth are part of the same continuous street.

With 11th Avenue, even if the upper part of the street is renamed, there are no reliable sources that West End Avenue's character is limited to that stretch, or if it applies unilaterally across the whole Upper West Side. There are, however, reliable sources that West End Avenue was once named 11th Avenue and that they are still the same street; the street doesn't change magically at 59th Street. Epicgenius (talk) 13:42, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

The NY Times article is entirely about the different character of the renamed, (not dual-named nick-named or sometimes-called) West End Avenue. 11th Avenue has car dealers, stables, printing plants and RR yards. West End since the renaming over 100 years ago has been the site of residential buildings. There are no RS to support calling West End "11th Avenue" in current usage. The non-RS googled attempt to do so only demonstrates that no good RS apparently were forthcoming. SPECIFICO talk 13:48, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Another source for their being the same street (or at least continuations of each other): "A continuation of 11th Avenue, West End Avenue goes from 59th Street through 107th Street, where it connects with Broadway". The character of each street corresponds to the respective neighborhoods. I'd like to see a reliable source for the character of these streets being limited to themselves. BTW, Tenth Avenue has these car dealerships, maintenance shops, and RR yards, too; yet it still is the same street as Amsterdam Avenue, and is noted as such on that single article. Epicgenius (talk) 13:57, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

"Continuation" is not what we're talking about here. We're talking about representing WEA as a subset or one and the same as. US Route 9 is the "continuation" of Broadway north to Albany. It wouldn't make sense to merge those articles, though there as in the WEA article it does makes sense to discuss the historical origins of the roads and their physical layout. Please find some contemporary sources that refer to, for example, the intersection of 74th Street and Eleventh Avenue. The building addresses are re-started at the beginning of West End Avenue. The zoning is different. There's no RS which treats them as one and the same. If there were RS which stated they're one and the same, there'd be no need for googling travel guides and speculation like imaginary car dealerships on 10th avenue or "otherstuff" on WP. We need many more editors opinions, not repetition of unsupported OR. SPECIFICO talk 14:24, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

You probably didn't read the New York Times articles (and any other of the books and other sources), did you? By the way, some of your points are moot; the building addresses restart on all the avenues along the West Side; the zoning is different for the Upper West Side and Midtown (see map), but that doesn't mean the street is different; and Broadway and U.S. 9 is what is called a "concurrency", which means that they are the same for some portions of each other's routes, but the U.S. 9 article describes in detail that particular upper part of Broadway. Get a source that says that they are two completely different streets, and re-read the articles for the other streets on the Upper West Side. Epicgenius (talk) 15:56, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support merge It's just a variant name, like all avenues on the Upper West Side of Manhattan. They should all be treated uniformly. DGG ( talk ) 02:30, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Creeping south

It looks like West End is slowly creeping south. Egbert L. Viele originally proposed that it start at 63rd street[12], but in 1880 only the section of Eleventh from 72nd to 106th was renamed[13]. I'm still not sure when it was extended to 59th Street, but recently some real estate developers are pushing to use the name used as far south as 54th Street.[14]. Pburka (talk) 14:35, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

At the time of this publication it only extended to 70th Street. I have yet to look through it for the complete history. Epicgenius (talk) 13:57, 25 August 2014 (UTC)