Talk:West End, Vancouver

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Untitled

Hi Skookum1. You're adding lots of great content, but citing your sources is equal in importance to the content itself if the article is to survive and be trusted, so I hope you don't mind me asking you about a couple of things in your last edit...

• I find the "Blue Blood Alley" story interesting. What's your source or where can I found out more about it?
• The previous article said, "Vancouverites define the West End as the residential area west of Burrard St. and south of Georgia St., both major thoroughfares." You've added, "The technical meaning of the term, however, refers to everything between Burrrard Street and Stanley Park, including north of Georgia." What's your source for that? I would be inclined to yield to the technical definitions of neighbourhoods defined by the City itself at [1] -- which the previous edit matches well.

I don't want to leave on a nitpicky tone, so thanks again for the contributions! --Ds13 19:31, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

"Blueblood alley" actually refers to Georgia Street, as cited at the city website and here. --Clapaucius 21:57, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Lacking further comment on the boundary question I had above, I've done what I believe to be an improvement in the wording and citing. --Ds13 20:10, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

That's one version of Blueblood Alley, I think it was in Maj Mathews' Early Vancouver or another history of early Vancouver I saw the West Pender St mention; but yes there were fancy mansions on Georgia too; the term may have migrated also; on Georgia the mansions were around Jervis; on Pender they were back in the thick of what is now the financial district, i.e. Pender & Thurlow area, also West Hastings in the same area; make no mistake, the money that owned those houses were the ones who urbanized the area into towers.....and moved on to Shaughnessy and West Point Grey/Kerrisdale and West Van....Skookum1 (talk) 04:13, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Name

I removed this: "The West End, which gets its name from the West End School built in 1891...," and added "probably" and removed the date. I cited Morley, the only reference I found, because he notes that there was an East End School, Central School, and West End School. Daphne Marlatt and Carole Itter in Vancouver's East End claim that the East End (now Strathcona) was named after the school there, so I think it makes sense that the West End did as well (establishing the right and wrong side of the tracks, it seems..). Morley also says that there were 5 schools by 1890, including these 3 unimaginatively named ones, which is why I took out the date. I also know Strathcona was built in that year, so the original entry may have confused the two. But if anyone comes across a more confident source, feel free to update. I just wanted to get rid of the citation needed tag.Bobanny 07:02, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Name origin

The West End, which probably gets its name from the West End School", ref. Allan Morley, Vancouver: From Milltown to Metropolis,3rd.ed. Vancouver: Mitchell Press, 1974, p. 135.

I've read Morley and don't recall that; what's the exact wording from p.135? "West End" and "East End" are common anglicisms for the "end" of a village/town, which to me was always the origin; the school would have been named on that premise IMO.Skookum1 (talk) 16:14, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Blue Blood Alley

Redlinked that because I think it may deserve a history article or at least a section; I'd added this to the intro by way ofexplaining Coal Harbour vs West End but then noticedd tehre's slight mention of it in the history section. Like Hogan's Alley and British Properties it has a certain place in the city's social history that can't be downpllyaed, so maybe nededs a short article herre's my copy, maybe it can just be knit inot the existing article thought:

West Pender, before that area's conversion into an extension of the financial and business-office district, was formerly the and highest-prestige address in pre-Great War Vancouver and the heart of an area known as Blue Blood Alley, the site of the first collection of opulent mansions of the city's leading magnates and socialites. It was during that period that institutions such as the Vancouver Club, Terminal City Club, Royal Vancouver Yacht Club and the Vancouver Rowing Club became situated either on or at the foot of the bluff below West Hastings Street, a block below the home's of the city's wealthy. Also in the area had been one of the city's opera houses, on Pender just west of Burrard.

A few years ago my memory would have been good enough to remember the name of the opera house; there's a picture of its facade in teh Vancov uer Public Library collection, though I don't know if it's in the online colletion. The only remaining one of these mansions left is the restord one where the Elbow Room had been, now part of some big complex. I think the old Nurses Residence should get a mention, like The Banff; this had been an area of better-built stone apartment and brick buildings and again a better address because of proximity to the stock exchange and business class social life; English Bay was by comparison living out in teh country. The article might also mention the old Denman ARena and the other one at Lost Lagoon, or was it where Harbour Park is now? One point about the Blue Blood Alley properties that's hard to cite and is maybe synthesis; but it's clear that the expansion of the business district went in this direction as those whose residential preoprties it had been were able to get business-property prices for it (they bought Shaughnessy next...and started teh Arbutus Club accordingly etc.). NB also though I don't recall Matthews of Davis or Morley commenting on it - "Blue Blood Alley" my guess is a sort of pun on Blood Alley in Gastown; which is should be understood is the back-door entrance to the Bodega Club, which beore the Vancouver Club was built was the gentleman's club and hangout; my gut feeling is it's intentional; life at the Bodega (that club) was a bit more red-blooded also, rather than dry and proper as visibl society life woould be and so very '"blue"/ today's Davie Mansion was an outpost of Blue Blood Alley, it used to have neighbours, but all the biggest ones were on WEest Pender (again, some nice shots in the VPL collection exist).

History of nightlife int he WEst End

This has gotta be somehow citable, though tons of work; Isy's crossed my mind (it ended its life as teh metro, which some here may remember; ne3xt to the Christian Science church)....and but more of a book than a wiki article I suppose; Wiki-style it's just about where the3 bar licneses were; book-style it's who hung out where, most modern Vancouverites aren't aware taht one fo the city's top live rooms was the basement room in what's now Celebrities; it was called the Retinal Circus....). But I'm also thinking of the Blue, the Ritz, the Sylvia, th tour de bar and the changes wrought in the disco and neighbourhood pub and restaruants-with-booze eras as t hey each changed the place. Again too much OR but certain joints deserve mention; the Metro/Isy's is definitely one, long-gone though it is...Skookum1 (talk) 04:42, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't know... then we'd have to get into the teenage hookers that partially led to the traffic calming... well I guess it did happen :-o -John Mytton (talk) 17:50, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

I think a better physical description section is needed.

Most of the West End is comprised of 3 storey apartment buildings. Few homes are owned. The vast majority are rentals. The photos give the impression that the neighbourhood is mostly made up of houses. Plus, I don't see Davie being mentioned as the main drag.

That's because it's not, unless you live near it; Robson and Denman are equally as much "the main drag" (though you're more likely to see drag there, not that you don't see it on Denman or Robson...). Agreed on other counts about 3 story buildings predominating, though the tower landscape is unique and has particular zoning origins; also I think you'll find if you check with the city that the ratio of condo ownership of apartments approaches or exceeds rentals; this became the case in the 1990s, not sure if it's still the case....Skookum1 (talk) 02:02, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Robson never seemed like a West End main drag because it doesn't cut through it. It always felt like city. You are right about Denman. That's a main drag. Doesn't the article call west of Denman "Stanley Park Neighbourhood"? I remember it having a different name, but it always seemed West End to me. I lived there from 88 to 98 and don't remember any of those 3 storeys being owned by individuals. Also, what do you mean by tower landscape? Cheers. Oh, yeah. One more thing? How about the film "Hookers on Davie" getting a mention in a cultural references section or something like that?

Robson 'does cut through the West End, the north boundary of which is roughly Pender/Georgia (formally the wtaerfront in the old days, but that's Coal Harbour now, neighbourhood-wise); and lower Rubson ("down the hill" is very much West End). A lot of waht seems like rentals, because they have renters, are strata-owned; the older low-rises are rentals, it's the newer ones and townhouse complexes I'm referring to (e.g. Broughton between Nelson and Pendrell); most of the towers now are condo, many were built as rentals....the cityt has figures on all this, I dno't know where to look, but the shift to condo ownership in the West End was a major social issue in the '80s....the hookers on Davie? Are they back? Used to be Jervis/Davie/Broughton/Pendrell, and also the looparound the Bute liquor store; that all got shut down by Expo and agitation from the Davie community....the tower landscape is all the West End highrises and the city's requirements that so much open space be available between them (otherwise this area would look like Manhattan, with no partly-open views....when the big blockhouse on Beach, just west of Denman, got built, it set off alarm bells and zoning regs were brought in that produced the particular type of towerscape - thing towers, as opposed to big high blocks like you find in NYC and elsewhere...). The low-rises you mention also replaced older house-style apartment buildlings which actually had a higher density (at some point in the '40s or '50s, the West End had a higehr population density that in does now, without towers and low-rises....).Skookum1 (talk) 14:10, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Ahh, I see. I always thought most of the buildings in the WE were big corporation owned. As for Hookers on Davie, I meant the film, not the hookers. I never saw hookers when I was there. Good info. Thanks. I will try and think of a way to incorporate it into the article.--Anna Frodesiak (talk) 14:43, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Only some of the towers remain corporation-owned, ditto the low-rise complexes; operational costs were more than they wanted to bear, now those are born by strata "owners"; there are esceptions like Columbia Place (the big one above the Davie Super-Valu); many that are rented out are actually condo-owned or even co-ops so you'll still see "rental" signs but there's no one single owner. Most low-rises of the older variety are AFAIK still rentals (lower operating costs). Hookers on Davie I'd forgotten was a film title - I think the stretch of Davie in the script, though, is the part below Granville not hte part in the West End, I haven't seen it.Skookum1 (talk) 16:47, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

prostitution re Social Issues section

re this addition it's worth noting that it was a persecution of hookers and johns down in the Downtown EAstside that first got the girls (and the boys) to take up strolls on Davie, Burnaby, Jervis, Broughton etc; they came to the West End to make a point, and it proved profitable; same as when the cops started ticketing and putsching panhandlers down on East Hastings; begging which had been limited to that area suddenly was all over the West End, and Kits and beyond..... so while the addition is valuable there's more history as to why the area had become notorious for prostitution; city policy made it happen, and it took the courts to pressure them out; there's some books around on the history of prostitution in Vancouver, it's really a whole article of its own one day.Skookum1 (talk) 04:17, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Demographics...but which ones? Not income!

It's rather suspicious that there's not a single mention of average personal/household income in West Van. Must be very high...