Talk:West Brit

Trinity College Dublin

Trinity College Dublin is the last functioning presence of British/Unionist power in the Republic of Ireland. If there was a list of things in the Republic of Ireland which deserve to be associated with the term "West Briton", Trinity College would definitely be at the top of the list. It is a mecca for the Irish Anglophile.

You could add the various "Royal" institutions in Dublin: two medical colleges, the Royal Dublin Society, the Royal Irish Yacht Club and the Royal Dublin Golf Club. However, the titles seem to be historical anomalies, or vestiges of a tradition rather than symptoms of a political statement. Millbanks 19:46, 13 November 2007 (UTC) PS There's also the Royal Irish Academy. Millbanks (talk) 10:12, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

It is the ONLY College in the Republic of Ireland with a Unionist Society, a Unionist Society which is proud to call itself "west brit": http://www.csc.tcd.ie/~unionist/articles/article2.htm

If you can find any other institution in the Republic which likes to be associated with the term "west brit", I'd like to hear it.

You are quoting out of one context, their is one insignificant quote using the term in that article. The term was once widely (not particularily regarding the college) used but wikipedia is not here to make a term fashionable or "join the dots" for people - the term is historical. Wikipedia should and must be impartial and npov - indeed I suspect that you have an agenda to simply promote the link between the term and the college for your own ends, so what if the college has a unionist society. Djegan 16:56, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

From what I remember, the society was run by a small number of people and has been inactive for several years - namely since those people graduated. It has been suggested that it was largely run by one person who went by the nickname "Ozymandias" on Usenet. Being a society does not imply that TCD approves of the societies' ideology, merely that it has met certain criteria set down by the Central Societies Committee. (Minimum number of members signed up, nothing to exclude students on arbitrary grounds are two criteria that come to mind.) If the person who made the orginal comments about the Unionist society were to follow their argument consistently, TCD would have to support the ideology of every political society that is recognised by the CSC! Autarch 18:11, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Even if I have an "agenda" it is still very disingenuous of you to say that "it is hard to see the link, even if you use your imagination."

As opposed to, say, citing the existence of a (defunct) college society as somehow typical of everyone there? Autarch 18:18, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

It is clear for all to see that there are very strong links between Trinity College Dublin and Britain. Their Boat club is called the "Lady Elizabeth Boat Club", the college was officially opened by Queen Elizabeth I, its sister colleges are in the universities of Oxford and Cambridge. The College's coat of arms leaves no one under the illusion as to its patriotic allegiance.

"West Briton" is a outdated term, more suited to the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries - any current use of it is simply agenda driven such as political slander and has no place here by trying to resurrect its usage. By your reasoning other agenda terms such as "Paddy", etc could be considered equally valid in other articles as recommended reading. Read Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not; certainly points 1.3 and 1.4 would be valid in this case as why not to include West Briton in the article. Djegan 18:34, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm bewildered by the original posters' comments - whose "political allegiance" is being questioned - the students, the faculty, the graduates, or anybody else? Frankly, whoever made those comments is living in a timewarp! Autarch 18:17, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Djegan is intolerant of any slant on TCD. ALL POV == NPOV. Metaphysicist 22:54, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Please read no personal attacks. Djegan 23:23, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Why? Have I engaged in a personal attack? You are intolerant of any slant on TCD. That's not an attack, simply an accurate statement based on all your previous responses.Metaphysicist 15:19, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I accuse you of nothing, but please keep the talk relevant to the article and this is not a place for making accusations against editors. I am not intolerant of "slant" against tcd, i have never being their and hold no interest in the place. Moreover I think every article should be balanced and that this is fundemental part of what an article is. But you might read criticism of Wikipedia to understand why controversial or original thinking is not approved of after several high profile scandals over articles. Djegan 18:56, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Belittling Trinity or its' students is as ridiculous as saying "I went to Trinity, you didn't, yah boo sucks!". Both show snobbery which is definitely POV and has no place in an encyclopedia. As I've pointed out before, if TCD is considered Unionist because of a defunct Unionist society, it must also be considered pro-Fianna Fáil, pro-Fine Gael, pro-Green, pro-Sinn Féin, pro-everything that has an active society. Autarch 15:01, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I would be greatful if you make it clear if your comments are meant for me, or otherwise, in any case review WP:NPA (for your since removed comments). Djegan 15:07, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

My apologies - I directed them at the wrong person - I think the comments I meant to reply to were from Metaphysicist. I toned down the original comments after putting them up - I my temper and only realised after I'd saved the page that I'd clearly violated the NPA policy. My sincerest apologies to you on both counts. Autarch 15:24, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I am going to remove the reference to Ross O'Carroll Kelly, he is not a West Brit and the reference is a transparent attempt to provide through traffic to his article.

I can see why, he's from the Southside and played rugby - all part of the stereotype. Autarch 15:35, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Well if you read his Guide to south Dublin, it does come across as a bit West Brit, but remember, it's only a joke. Millbanks 19:54, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Oireachtas illustrative quotes

I've been googling Oireachtas records (site:oireachtas.ie "West Briton" and site:oireachtas.ie "West Brit") for salient quotes illustrating various nuances of the term. Here are my favourites:

1920s

• "I rise to speak against this Treaty because ... it denies a recognition of the Irish nation. ... my chief objection is because I am asked to surrender the title of Irishman and accept the title of West Briton." Harry Boland 07-01-1922

• "Is it not possible that the present Government are the best judges of what is necessary for the safety and welfare of this State? Remember they are a national Government and do not number even one member who is that kind of Irishman described in the past as a West Briton. I believe that they are good judges of the necessity for this special legislation" Bagwell 09-08-1927

• "I am not anti-Irish, though I have been treated to every variety of abuse and have been called a West-Briton and a traitor. " Dr. Hennessy, 13-03-1929

1930s

• " Sub-section (1) of Section 8 says...“a country other than Saorstát Eireann.” In other words, Saorstát Eireann is a country and not twenty-six countries. Sub-section (3) runs as follows:—“For the purposes of this section, the expression “country” includes England, Scotland and any other part of his Britannic Majesty's Dominions, as well as a foreign country.” It used, at one time, to be a term of obloquy to call a person a West Briton, but here the Party opposite are quite determined it is to be British ... It is not “his Majesty” at all, ... In order to show how completely British they are they must bring in this term. " Fitzgerald-Kenney 27-03-1930

• "You told them that their patriotic duty was not to pay and that anybody who paid was a West Briton and supporting the continuance and maintenance of John Bull in his position over Ireland's prostrate body. " Dillon 12-05-1933

• "The man is a rancher, he is an enemy, he is a West Briton, he is an imperialist, he is all that is odious, who does not do a thing that will not pay him." Belton, 13-07-1933

• "I have hesitated to take part in debates which dealt with the question of public security. I have felt it was rather the function of those who had taken an active part in the deliverance, the political deliverance, of the State, who had fought together in that cause, to deal with that special aspect of our domestic affairs—that which concerned public order. I felt that I personally had no national record, as generally understood. I was far away from the Post Office in 1916. I also felt that it would be rather in the nature of presumption for one who is reputed—and I stress the word “reputed,” because I do not accept the reputation—to be a West Briton to interfere in these affairs. Senators may remember the opening words of that great Irishman who, I suggest, would be called a West Briton, too—Edmund Burke— ..." Sir John Keane, 22-08-1933

• "stumping this country over economic self-sufficiency and denouncing anybody who criticised that as a West Briton and as a saboteur of Irish industry" Dillon 07-07-1938

• "These were six weary years, during which we heard “sabotage,” “West Briton,” “traitors to the country,” and “enemies of Irish Ireland.” " Dillon, 09-11-1938

1940s

• "The people who were brought to Rathcarne did not behave as they should. The only persons getting anything out of them are the lawyers. They are lighting morning, noon, and night. Those people, instead of making Rathcarne an Irish-speaking colony, are going to make it a proper West-Briton, narrow, bitter, un-Irish type of colony. The story is told that when a parish priest in Connemara was asked why he had supported the removal of 30 or 40 families to an Irish-speaking colony in the County Meath, said he was glad that they had gone elsewhere." Capt Giles 01-05-1940

• "describing me as a shoneen, as a West Briton and as aping the customs of other countries." Dillon, 21-06-1945

• "[Mr. Norton:] We have got to remain with sterling. Our destiny is ultimately bound up with sterling as a medium of exchange. ... [Mr. Dillon:] I have been saying that for the past 15 years and I have been called a West Briton and a traitor." 18-04-1947

1950s

• "Any Deputy who says that the present scheme to revive Irish is not a success runs the risk of being accused of being a shoneen or West Briton." Esmonde 11-06-1958

1960s

• "I can remember a time when, if you attended a State function in a silk hat and a waistcoat, you were declared to be a traitor and a West Briton." Dillon, 19-05-1960

• "it could happen that we would find ourselves penalised by Great Britain again as far as our pigs and bacon are concerned. I am not a bit chary about saying that in this House; people who say it are supposed to be West Britons. I would not like to be called a West Briton but, having spent a lot of my time in England, I always thought they were a fair people and that it was one of the greatest mysteries of history, of government or of administration that their treatment of Ireland was so despicable in the past century." T. Lynch 19-11-1961

• "There have been very prominent members on the Fine Gael side of the House who were very enthusiastic supporters of the language for the years but they are now replaced by shoneens with West Briton ideas. This defeatist attitude could have very serious repercussions throughout the country." Dolan 23-05-1962

• "T.F. O'Higgins —a member of what was looked on in this country as the former Unionist or West Briton Party" N. Lemass, 05-01-1966

• "The Fourth Amendment Bill is designed to introduce here the British system of voting. I remember the days when anyone who supported Cumann na nGaedheal was told he was West Briton. It strikes me that, as the years go by, Fianna Fáil are becoming more and more West Briton." Conlan 19-07-1968

1970s

• "Just because a farmer has what are the remains of a Georgian mansion, be it for good or evil, it has been fashionable to look upon him as a west Briton. " McDonald, 22-07-1971

• "southern public opinion would be such that if I speak my mind clearly and honestly as an Irishman, trying to reach out to the Northern Protestant, there is the belief that this guy, Harte, is a West Briton or a Catholic Unionist when all I am trying to be is an ordinary Irishman trying to create conditions in this island that will allow my family and other families and those who come after them to live as they are entitled to live." Harte, 01-12-1972

• " it has already been decided to provide a second channel by the Government... the decision seems to have been taken and that it is BBC only we will have. This may have resulted because of pressure by certain groups here and West Briton groups, language freedom movements and other people who represent a very small minority of the population who are trying to put their views across. " Dolan 05-06-1975

• "There was talk about subtle imperialism, little Englanders, West Britons and so on." Russell 24-06-1975

• "a kind of West Briton approach which is primarily concerned with keeping things as quiet as possible and not with trying to make progress towards not alone Irish unity but peace with justice in this country" Colley, 03-12-1975

• "the old Irish Parliamentary Party consisted of men who would but your throat if you called them West Britons. To use the words “Redmond” and “West Briton” in the same breath is a barely forgivable insult to the memory of people who worked their lives out for Ireland" Kelly, 10-12-1975

1980s

• "like it or not, lump it or otherwise, one million Irish people north of the Border will not be coerced into Irish unity and we at some time will have to take our courage in our hands and sit down and talk to those people, not on our conditions but on their conditions. ... It sickens me in my stomach and makes me ashamed at times to be sneered at by people, mostly from the Fianna Fáil Party but also from other super-republican groups in this island, and told that I and people like me are less Irish for seeking the friendship of other Irish people,... that in some way we are a peculiar brand of Unionist or of West Briton. I do not want to be anything other than Irish." Harte 11-01-1980

• "I object to the automatic asumption — which is not sincerely held but affected, to apply an anaesthetic plaster to a deeply felt inferiority complex — that one is being an elitist, or a West Briton or, as Kevin Boland said, a belted earl or one of the gin and tonic brigade if one says we are not in the same league as other capital cities in western Europe." Kelly 24-04-1986

• "I speak as a member of the British-Irish Association which exists specifically to improve relations between our two States — which every sensible person must agree with — to dispel this negative and rancid anti-Britishness which passes in some quarters for patriotism. I speak, therefore, as a friend of the United Kingdom, as someone who has been stigmatised as a “West Brit”." Professor Murphy, 30-11-1988

1990s

• "We do not have the following of some pseudo-intellectual left-wing west Brits but we do represent the decent people of Ireland." Lydon, 14-03-1990

• "I felt it my duty to articulate in this House the fears and apprehensions of those people about being forced into a united Ireland and Deputies on the Government benches in those days described me as a Unionist, as a second class Irishman, as a West Brit, as someone who was politically queer and unusual." Harte, 31-08-1994

• "[Mrs. Doyle:] It is appalling to see the Leader of the main Opposition party trying to score political points on the back of the peace process....[Mr. Cowen:] The Minister does not know what she is talking about...The Minister was never in the North in her life...[Mr. B. Ahern:] Where is the Government? [Mr. Cowen:] Probably at a gymkhana somewhere. ... [Mr. R. Burke:] The Minister should try visiting some of the Departments to which she has been assigned. Her officials do not even know she exists. [Mr. Cowen:] A west Brit from the south-east." 07-071995

• "[Mr. O'Toole:]people with country accents are going for jobs in competition with west Brit types....[Mr. Norris:] ... references to landed gentry and “West Brits” are not in tone with the dignity of this House" 12-11-1997

2000s

• "Another factor is a legacy of British rule, deeply ingrained in our psyche, ... what in Australia and New Zealand is called “cultural cringe”. This is the belief that one’s own culture is backward and unsophisticated compared to other cultures, most particularly British culture, and it is an undoubted historical feature of Irish, Australian and New Zealand life. In our own country it takes the form of the west Brit outlook, and the attitude encapsulated in the Dublin Opinion cartoon, “Bhí gaeilge agam, now I have a big job.”" Rabbitte, 24-02-2004

• "those of the west Briton view in regard to our language who continually attempt to denigrate Irish." Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, 30-03-2006

Discussion

It might be useful to quote or link to some of these in the article as illustrative quotes, citations for subsenses, etc.

• In these quotes at least, "West Briton" is mentioned more than used. Which is a good thing, because citing uses of a term, rather than discussions of its meaning, could be deprecated as Original Research. I haven't found the specific WP: policy where this is cautioned against, but I think it's mentioned somewhere.
• I would be wary of relying solely on examples from the Oireachtas, or of listing too many: it might convey the wrong impression of the dignity of the chamber (?).
• It seems that "West Brit" is a recent development.

Food for thought. jnestorius^(talk) 00:37, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I've once heard "West Brit" used (in a derogatory way) on the radio (RTE) but it's a bit dated now, as is, I think, "Trinity Pink". I also heard the late Mgr Denis Faul described as a "Castle Catholic", which I found sad and unfair, but that's POV I suppose. D4 seems rather a buzz-phrase now. Is it a new one?Bill Tegner 16:18, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

"Trinity Pink" is probably more dated than "West Brit" - I've heard the latter in use and a wikipedian has managed to google a huge list of uses of it. "Castle Catholic" is probably between the two - I've heard it, but less often than "West Brit". "Dublin 4" has been in use for several decades, in my experience. Autarch 18:03, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I've added Oireachtas citations for the phrase "Dublin 4" to the talk page for that entry should anyone wish to take the discussion of that term up there. Autarch 18:38, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Fine Gael

Fine Gael supporters are not branded "West Brits" simply for supporting Fine Gael. Those who view Fine Gael as excessively pro-British or pro-Unionist may use the label accordingly, but would not reserve the label purely for Fine Gael. As an analogy, alcoholism is part of the negative stereotype of Irishness, but nobody who holds to that stereotype uses the word "alcoholic" to mean "Irish". There are other insults for other elements of the (actual or caricatured) Fine Gael identity, like "Blueshirt", "Free Stater", "rancher", "shopkeeper", etc. jnestorius^(talk) 02:10, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I've rephrased the Kevin Boland claim. It needs a direct quotation to give evidence of what he meant. jnestorius^(talk) 10:45, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Wales

I take it folk are aware that this term is used, with similar connotations in Wales. --MacRusgail 01:37, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm not aware, and certainly it cannot be used in a pejorative sense, since Wales IS west Britain (although the newspaper The West Briton is based in Cornwall). Of course, in these days of appalling educational standards, it might be that people are saying, "the Welsh are not British" but of course they are more British than the English are. And the Irish for Wales is an Bhreatain. The Irish for England is an Sasanach - the land of the Saxons.

Conversely, calling Scotland "North Britain", whilst accurate, is dated. Millbanks 15:54, 2 November 2007 (UTC)