Talk:West–Central Canadian English

East side/west side in Toronto?

No one, anyone, at all, in Toronto refers to the east end or west end as the "east side" or "west side" of Toronto. The article claims that the inhabitants of the downtown core refer to it thus, but that is either a delusion or a fabrication. That's where i live, and where i'm from. I have never, in my entire life, EVER heard East/West Side in reference to the East/West Ends. Honestly, this is... totally made up. "natives of the city core describe the east and west as east side / west side". Natives of Toronto from anywhere refer to the ends as ends. not sides. East Side / West Side only refers strictly to areas directly contiguous with Yonge Street, the central axis of the city. Only directly adjacent would you EVER hear anyone say "its on the east side" or "on the west side", and almost entirely always followed by "of yonge". Even that is rare, as the street names contain "West" or "East" in the name, or people say "past yonge" (from the west, where the bulk of city activity is, meaning "on the east side of yonge). I'm probably just going to change this now to reflect reality. Above is simply my explanation as to why i changed it, and if anyone can somehow demonstrate to me that my entire life was a simulation and the thousands of native torontonians i know are somehow speaking contrarily to what we have been reported doing, then by all means change it back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.172.118.226 (talk) 05:00, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Father-bother merger

Here we go again. Would someone please explain to me and the world why large numbers of people in the linguistics and Wikipedia world seem to think that [Central/Western] Canadian English has undergone this merger, and, more to the point, why they seem to think that 'ɒ' has merged to 'ɑ' as in General American and not the other way around? My pronunciation of father and that of most everyone else I hear is /fɑðɜr/ though I occasionally hear /fɒðɜr/. Bother is almost always /bɒðɜr/ and almost never /bɑðɜr/. The Canadian Oxford Dictionary tends to agree, listing 'ɒ' for both (which admittedly does make its treatment of words with 'ɑ' a bit suspect).

To my ears, one of the quickest ways to "spot an American" is to listen for their pronunciation of "short O"s - if it sounds like a broad A (ɑ) they're almost certainly an American. Indeed, when I was last in Britain I was correctly tagged as a Canadian by one slightly more observant-than-average Brit who remarked that I didn't pronounce my 'O's oddly. This odd American pronunciation of 'O's has apparently even caused some Canadian school children consternation in spelling bees where the reader was American. Another example is one of the Edward Jones financial planning television adverts currently running (I think it was the one where the psychologist speaks an Eastern European language) where the person doing the voiceover can be heard to pronounce "stock" not as /stɒk/ but as /stɑk/ or even /stak/ so that it sounds like the word is actually "stack". Why someone didn't think to get a Canadian to do the voiceover is a good question.

I've written about this before in the Canadian English discussion with respect to the cot-caught merger. We merge these alright, but not to /kɑt/ (or kɔt) but to /kɒt/ (I actually do distinguish these slightly in that I hold the vowel sound of caught slightly longer than that of cot (ie /kɒ:t/ vs /kɒt/)).

It's possible the Canadian 'ɒ' is not quite the same as the British 'ɒ' but it is definitely closer to that than it is to the American pronunciation of 'ɑ'. All of this matters because we also have in this article this - IMHO - dubious "Canadian Shift" business whereby some words that are 'ɒ' in RP but 'ɑ' in GA are apparently shifting back to 'ɒ' in CE. This is quite amusing since, to the extent that we have any shift at all, it is from 'ɒ' to 'ɑ' and not from 'ɑ' to 'ɒ', though I suppose if one was an American and simply assumed that CE must use 'ɑ' then it might seem like a shift, especially if you hear some Canadians using 'ɑ'. Indeed, the line "Canadians without the Shift typically pronounce cot and caught with the original pronunciation that existed after the merger: an un-rounded [ɑ]..." is particularly enlightening in this regard with respect to what it regards as the "original pronunciation". --D P J 06:30, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Completely agree. In fact, here in Chicago you can hear people say 'stock' as [stæk]. ('Stack' is pronounced with a diphthong, [stɛək].)

However, I have heard plenty of Canadians saying [fɒðɚ]; in fact, /ɑ/ carries almost no functional load in Canadian English. The proof that there's something like a father-bother merger, for me, is that in Canada people use /æ/ rather than /ɑ/ to assimilate foreign words using /a/: for example, Nicaragua, pasta, Zimbabwe (and also drama, even though I don't think of this as a foreign word). It seems to me that the Toronto-area Canadians I've known have some sense of /ɑ/, but essentially never use it.

I even had one UofT linguistics teacher who insisted that <ɑ> was the symbol for [ɒ] (in words like cot and caught!). QuartierLatin1968 21:47, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation of buoy

Many Canadians (including myself) pronounce buoy not as /bɔɪ/ ("boy") but rather as /bu:i/ (literally "boo-ee" but with the 'oo' and 'ee' sounds run together as one). I grew up in Ottawa but I'm not sure if this is from the Ottawa area or from the Kingston area where my mother is from. Does anyone have any idea how extensive this pronunciation is in Canada (I have heard it on CBC) and whether or not this is particular to Canada? The Canadian Oxford Dictionary is in agreement on this one.

Hmm. That's the standard pronunciation in Alabama and North Dakota as well.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Greetingz (talk • contribs)

That's the way I say it too. I'm originally from Chicago (though I lived in Toronto for a number of years). QuartierLatin1968 21:43, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation of tour

Perhaps owing to the influence of French, tour in Canada seems to be pronounced as /tuər/ rather than the /tʊ(ə)r/ of American and British English. This means that those of us who pronounce tour this way don't have to change our pronunciation by much to pronounce "Tour de France". The Canadian Oxford Dictionary makes no mention of this pronunciation. --D P J 04:18, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

It's pronounced like that in North Dakota as well.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Greetingz (talk • contribs)

RP?

Why is this article constantly comparing Canadian English with RP? Surely General American is at least as useful as a point of reference, since Canadian English differs from GA so much less than from RP. QuartierLatin1968 21:43, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry

I believe it is quite common to say "sorry" emphasizing the "o" in Ontario whereas in the states the "o" sounds like an "a". Therefore it would sound more like "sarry". Canking 20:10, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

When emphasizing the "O", it turns the word sorry into sounding like "Sore-y". Only the mid-western/new england states are the ones where it sounds like "Sarry".  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.229.238.2 (talk) 21:37, 23 November 2010 (UTC) 

example of BC English

The recording that is linked to does not sound like typical BC English to me. The 'a' vowel sound, sounds American to my British Columbian ears. Also, some people say that distinguinshing factors in a south west British Columbian accent are the use of 'hey' occasionally instead of 'eh', and pronouncing Vancouver, Vangcouver. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KdeK2 (talk • contribs) 02:07, August 26, 2007 (UTC)

Toronto Slang Portion

Does anyone else feel like the Toronto slang portion of this article seems very un-academic? To me it seems like it was written by some high school kid that just typed in some words he was familiar with. All the slang refers to is parties, drugs, oral sex, and ethnic groups? I think it should be removed.

Karin62 22:47, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Who cares what the slang refers to, it is still unique to Toronto and that is what is important. Now if you have an objection to the obscenity on Wikipedia, then just be frank about it. That is a different debate altogether. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.104.45.20 (talk) 22:49, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I was born and raised in Toronto and haven't heard 3/4 (at least) of the slang listed. Is it an age thing? 207.245.42.18 (talk) 19:17, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

The Toronto slang portion is out-of-place, as well as being a list within an article that has no other similar sections. Should be at very least removed to its own article. Tofino (talk) 20:49, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

As a Torontonian, and in my mid 20's so not some old man out of touch with slang, I can agree with the others in saying that I have never heard probably over half of these terms that are attributed to being "Toronto slang". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.228.201.107 (talk) 04:14, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

This is not really anything specific to English as spoken in Toronto. It is just a listing of current local slang. Living in Toronto, I don't see anything that has any specific local history and likely all will be replaced by new slang terms within a few years. I feel it is out of place and should be removed. Dolphin Cheese (talk) 22:26, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I am removing the Toronto slang section. It is out of place here, and of questionable validity. 173.32.47.35 (talk) 05:32, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

"Many suburban Torontonians use buddy (without a capital) as it is often used in Newfoundland English – as equivalent to that man ("I like buddy's car")." I live in suburban Toronto and I have never heard buddy used in this context. Furthermore I'm not sure local slang is really relevant to this particular article, especially when it has no documentation or references. --Abklaass (talk) 01:50, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Suggested Improvements

This article needs better organization in general. There is nothing written in this article about the words "process" and "against" either. I have heard Canadians pronounce "process" as /'pɹoʊ,sɛs/ and "against" as /ə'ɡeɪnst/. These words may seem trivial, but, then again, the differences between General American and this dialect are not very great, so I think we should emphasize the few distinctions that exist. Also I think Canadian raising should be listed under the "In contrast to General American:" section, since that is what most people think of when they think about the way Canadians speak. Although a phenomenon similar to Canadian Raising occurs in places like the South and Philadelphia, among others, it does not happen in General American speech. There is a Canadian Shift as well and though it is not as divergent from General American as, say, the Northern Cities Vowel Shift and may not be present in the language of as many people, it is worthy of being in the "In contrast to General American:" section. Thanks. 208.104.45.20 22:42, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Assessment

I have assessed this as B Class, although it needs a significant cleanup, and of low importance, as it is a highly specific topic within Canada. Cheers, CP 03:49, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Lowering of /æ/ (or not) before nasals

The article currently says: "The /æ/ of bat is retracted to [a] (except before nasals)". I think the "except before nasals" is an overgeneralization. At least in Ontario, I believe this retraction/lowering of /æ/ is widespread in all positions, including before nasals (e.g., "Canada" pronounced /'ka.nə.də/). Richwales (talk) 08:03, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I am an American (not that that matters) and I agree with you on that one sir. I have heard Canadians pronounce "chance" as [tʃans]. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 00:57, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "Montreal"

English-speaking Canadians consistently pronounce "Montreal" as /ˌmʌn.tɹi.'ɒl/ — in contrast to Americans, who generally pronounce the first vowel as /ɔ/ or /ɑ/. Richwales (talk) 08:07, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, I have heard that as well. Thegryseone (talk) 19:08, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation of /aɪ/ in Ontario

I've observed that the /aɪ/ diphthong, when not subject to "Canadian raising", is retracted/lowered to something more like /ɒɪ/ in much of Ontario. This shift also triggers nasalization of the diphthong in the vicinity of nasal consonants; consider the Ontario pronunciation of "nine times" (with nasalized /ɒɪ/ in both words — sorry, I can't see any way to write a tilde over these IPA symbols). This appears to be common amongst Anglophone Quebecers as well. It does not appear to be a feature of "CBC English", however. Richwales (talk) 08:22, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I think I know what you mean there. I believe I have heard that as well. Good ears! 208.104.45.20 (talk) 23:02, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion of inland northern dialect in southwestern Ontario

This is completely incorrect. We do not have the NCVS in south western Ontario like they do in Michigan. I have talked to a linguist friend of mine and has said that no traits of NCVS have EVER been found in a Canadian English.

Also the pronunciation of "Toronto" is not exclusive to Toronto. All southern Ontarion's produce a similar sound when pronouncing the word. I believe this to be a developing linguistic phenomena (I'm not sure of its name, flapping?)→And it isn't just the word "Toronto" it's other words like "limited" for instance which a lot of people pronounce as "limid" without noticing and a few others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.224.205.57 (talk) 04:49, 12 January 2015 (UTC)