Talk:Wer nur den lieben Gott läßt walten

This article, originally an unattributed translation of an article on the German wikipedia

This article appears to have been copied from the article on de.wikipedia.org as a word for word translation. There was no attribution of this when it happened. This explains the format and multiple faults that I found while preparing material on BWV 642. These included musically ungrammatical notation for the click-and-play hymn tune (the omission of treble clefs after the first line, a musically illiterate thing to do). I have rescored the lilypond notation, adding the cor anglais (english horn) as a more natural singing voice. I have also added the hymn tune in 3/2 time that Neumark actually published. The use of 3/2 time is hardly discussed in the article (except by me). I have also added the words in English from the book on the Bach chorales by Charles Sanford Terry (historian). The hymn tune and alternate texts are discussed in Williams' book on Bach's organ music: I have added this as a source and corrected some of the text. Williams also discusses other words that were sung to tha same hymn tune; I have added that content. I found the scanned images of the entire prayerbook of 1657 in the digital archive of the Bavarian State Library and have added the images on Commons and in this article (as a gallery). (Why this did not happen on de.wikipedia.org is a mystery, given that similar images, but in lower resolution, are reproduced on one of the main websites for Bach cantatas.) The article is still of quite limited use as a resource for articles on Bach's compositions (such as BWV 642). Mathsci (talk) 07:46, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for the extensive additions! I came to this article after hearing a version in a film. Would it be OK to include a link to a YouTube clip from a movie somewhere in this article? That arrangement (by Tobias Gravenhorst, according to one comment) has a few differences with Neumark’s score, though, notably a flat E (I think). --Geke (talk) 13:52, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

The Manuscript

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchess_Anna_Amalia_Library The original manuscript got lost during the fire of the Weimar library. --Stephanie Do (talk) 15:31, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Translation of title

He who allows dear God to rule is a wrong translation of Wer nur den lieben Gott läßt walten, better is: Who allows dear God to rule. Grimes2 (talk) 13:24, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

For Orgelbüchlein BWV 642, Russell Stinson gives the literal version as "Whoever lets dear God rule him": Peter Williams gives the translation, "He who allows dear God to rule him." For BWV 93, Alfred Dürr & Richard Jones give the translation "Whoever just lets our dear God govern". I chose Williams' version for Ob. I didn't write that article, but you are right that "him" was omitted. The verbs "guide", "lead", "rule", "govern", etc, have the same sense. Mathsci (talk) 14:09, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Removal of "him" done by Gerda Arendt. Mathsci (talk) 17:29, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

https://books.google.de/books?id=gTXxUk1LAowC&pg=PA312 Grimes2 (talk) 17:36, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

If you look at BWV 642 you will see that are two sources for Orgelb: Williams (CUP, 2003) and Stinson (OUP, 1999). Both sources can be found online. There are no canonical choices of literal translations; there are often several English titles of cantatas (see BWV 93 and their external links). The same applies to the online book on Bach cantatas (CUP, 2006) which you can find online (subject to subscription). I have the actual books of all three but prefer but to use pdf versions which are searchable. The page you cite is exactly what I wrote, "He who allows dear God to rule him." Here is the link for Peter Williams' "The Organ Music of J. S. Bach". I have written a lot of WP content on Bach's sacred organ music, so I am surprised you don't know who I am. On this page there are a lot of media files I created, including the ogg file for one of Reger's chorale preludes, Op. 67. Mathsci (talk) 18:16, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Now what do we seek, a literal translation or what. Literally, there is no "him" or "her" in the first line. He who lets [the] dear God manage/care/..., - "walten" is not "rule", a Verwalter is an administrator. I bet that "him" was only added to achieve the same number of syllables, a "singable version". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:54, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

None of these translations are metrical. There is not reason to mock Peter Williams' translations. For BWV 93, a search of Breitkopf & Härtel, Bärenreiter, Kalmus (amazon) or a standard library yields the English titles for the cantata. The Breitkopf & Härtel edition has the English title "He who relies on God's compassion." The online vocal score is here. The piano arrangement was by Günther Raphael; possibly J. Michael Diack was the translator. I will look up the English titles for the cantata with the other publishers. Mathsci (talk) 19:55, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Kalmus/Novello/amazon: "Whoso will suffer God to guide him" Mathsci (talk) 20:02, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Carus-Verlag: "All those who seek God's sov'reign guidance" full score, translated by Vernon and Jutta Whicker. Mathsci (talk) 20:15, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Reger's organ roll rendition of Op. 67, No. 45

The chorale prelude is marked "etwas langsam". An organ roll with selected preludes from Op. 67 was created in February 1914 by Max Reger himself. A 30 second sample is available free of charge; the whole piece lasts 2 mins 27 secs and is worth hearing for the way in which Reger varies dynamics and registration. Bach's Orgelbüchlein was an inspiration for Reger's 52 chorale preludes, Op. 67; during a particular chorale prelude, however, Bach did not usually change organ stops, unlike Reger. (There is also a recent YouTube video showing the functioning of Reger's organ roll for No. 25.) Mathsci (talk) 07:22, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

User:RandomCanadian, please could you respond to the points raised here and above? As a Toronto IP, you have been one of the only WP music editors to have added substantial lilypond code directly into source pages (thanks for that!). The visual lilypond scores are great (e.g. Jesu meine Freude) but not always so for some of the midi audio renderings (e.g. Vater unser im Himmelreich). It's true that WP is always a work in progress so content can always be improved: sometimes less is more.

From spotify Reger recordings—not a WP:RS for WP!—the tempo adopted in almost every recording of No.45 is slow, over 2 minutes. That includes Reger's 1914 organ roll recording on the Welte-Philharmonie-Orgel, time 2:27. Two organists, Kurt Rapf and Rosalinde Haas, take 1:39. The title of the collection is "Zweiundfünfzig leicht ausführbare Vorspiele zu den gebräuchlichsten evangelischen Chorälen". The word "leicht" shows its suitability for amateurs (cf live YouTube recordings). Many other organ works by Reger are far more demanding (e.g. Sieben Stücke, Op. 145).

The 1913 Peters organ edition of Bach was prepared by Karl Straube, Thomaskantor and champion of Reger. It shows dynamics and special fingerings typical of the late Romantic school, which can make these pieces harder to perform (cf Straube's recordings of BWV 599[1] and BWV 659 [2]). Nowadays historically informed performance of Bach organ works predominates. Possibly some of the distinguished older generation (Rapf and Haas) have gone the same way for Reger.

Creating audio files involves more than simple lilypond coding. The crescendo/diminuendo dynamics are achieved by adding pp, ppp, or pppp markings next to note symbols. Articulation is achieved by micro-rests between repeated notes; similarly ritertandos by tempo tags. The soundfonts come from an off-wiki specialist organ website. The soundfonts are handled using linux software (timidity, ffmpeg and audacity): this permits reverberation effects and control over left/right channels. The change of manual after the first five bars of the prelude is audible, with a micro-rest or breath.

As a devotee and RL singer of both Bach and Reger choral music, User:Gerda Arendt is probably better placed to comment. Might the elephant in the room actually be Christoph Graupner? Gerda has already mentioned elsewhere that some of this content might be WP:UNDUE. Mathsci (talk) 13:24, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

I don't see what question is being asked of me. Reger played it quite slow. Ok, fine, that has nothing to do with this being a midi. If there are audio files of Reger actually playing it (these would be out of copyright, as Reger died in 1916), that would be better. The difficulty of making midi files is irrelevant to the suitability of the audio. The fact is that the sound clearly sounds artificial to somebody who has experience playing actual organs (me, in this instance). As you yourself indicate, this comes from the "leichte Vorspiele". At the tempo played, I reckon it could almost be sight-read: if I wasn't busy with real-life I would maybe do just that. "Two organists, Kurt Rapf and Rosalinde Haas, take 1:39" - yeah, that looks closer to the tempo I would take. Re. Graupner: a composer that is not known enough; and one of the few instances where we actually have coverage of him? I would be opposed to removing it on a whim without more convincing reasons. Cheers, RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 15:20, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

In RL, I regularly played on a Kern organ in Aix as well as a chapel organ in Cambridge. I've practised some of Op.67 there. Occasionally PD/CC recordings become available (Bach on Silbermann organs in Saxony on MUSOPEN). BWV 543 is an example; unfortunately that's not the case for Robert Köbler's 1966 recordings of Ob. Reger's organ roll recordings are linked in the relevant articles[3] but I don't believe there are any Reger recordings on Commons. As far as Graupner is concerned, the article Christoph Graupner should be expanded by experts, to avoid repetition. Robin Klupp Taylor's expertise on Graupner is definitely a plus; unlike Bach or Reger, however, it's not so easy to find WP:RS, as Gerda has said.

Looking back at the history of the audio file on Commons (28 February 2017, 14:01 to 22:40), there were seven revisions. The first timing was 1:38.[4] Then 1:57 with slower tempo, but not quite as slow as Reger.[5] Then settling down to 2:04 with Slower tempo, change in registration following score.[6] Then centring of Gedacht voice,[7] soft dynamic for first section,[8] changing registration of second registration to flute a cheminee[9] and finally avoiding doubled notes in last two bars.[10] The third attempt already gives a sound that is unmistakably recognizable as an organ with two different manuals. Regrettably not a 1910 Sauer Organ from the Michaeliskirche in Leipzig. Mathsci (talk) 18:44, 27 November 2021 (UTC)