Talk:Welsh rebellions against English rule

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This article was nominated for merging with English rule in Wales in the past. The result of the discussion was withdrawn by nom.

Defining the period

Some sources suggest the period 410 to 1415 as the period of the Welsh Wars of Independence^[1] but perhaps 1283 to 1415 would be more apt. Would be interested to hear thoughts on this. Titus Gold (talk) 18:46, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Moore, David (2007-01-10). The Welsh Wars of Independence. The History Press. ISBN 978-0-7524-9648-1.

Article title

I think there are some potential synthesis concerns here. "Welsh Wars of Independence" is the name of a book, but I don't seem any sources to indicate this is a widely accepted term/WP:COMMONNAME for all of the Anglo-Welsh wars that occurred in the centuries up to the Edwardian conquest. I think "Anglo-Welsh wars" might be a better title? Jr8825 • Talk 20:07, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's a fair point. Personally I feel that Anglo-Welsh wars would be more suited to pre-1283 wars between Welsh and English forces.

Since since 1283, Wales has mostly been under English Rule, this might be the best point of distinction.

There aren't many sources discussing these as a whole because the books tend to be on Welsh history as a whole or a general books about the Princes of Wales right up to Glyndwr.

Referring to Glyndwr's wars:

"War for Welsh independence": https://www.historyanswers.co.uk/medieval-renaissance/owain-glyndwr-and-the-war-for-welsh-independence/

"The War of Welsh independence": https://darganfod.llyfrgell.cymru/discovery/fulldisplay?vid=44WHELF_NLW:44WHELF_NLW_NUI&mode=advanced&tab=tab4&docid=alma9918836902419&query=creator,exact,E.%20Jones%20Cruglas,%20fl.1888.,AND&context=L&lang=en

"War of independence": https://nation.cymru/news/owain-glyndwrs-war-of-independence-to-feature-in-queens-jubilee-book-given-to-schoolchildren/

The only reference to all the wars/uprisings as a whole is "Welsh wars of independence": https://books.google.com/books?id=s8U7AwAAQBAJ&newbks=0&hl=en Titus Gold (talk) 21:04, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Titus Gold: agreed that "Anglo-Welsh wars" is more suitable for pre-1283 wars. Looking closer at the article's scope (post-1283), I think it's really about Welsh rebellions against English rule (or "Welsh revolts") rather than full-blown wars, and I think this would be a better title. The exception is, of course, Glyndwr's uprising, which is often called "The (Last) War of Independence" in Wales, but while "war(s) of independence" might sometimes be applied to the conflicts directly preceding the conquest (between Gwynedd and the English Crown; I'm not sure about this), I'm doubtful the label's generally extended to other post-conquest revolts. Jr8825 • Talk 21:22, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fair point again. Perhaps "Welsh wars and rebellions for independence" could also be an option. Titus Gold (talk) 22:25, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"wars" is problematic because there's really only one conflict that can be classed as a "war", Glyndwr's long-lasting uprising, and that too is more commonly called a rebellion in the literature. I think "Welsh rebellions against English rule" is the only accurate title here -- would you be opposed to moving it? Jr8825 • Talk 13:33, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also, just a heads up, quite a few of the citations here are incomplete because you've copied citations directly from other articles without also including a bibliography, so there are page numbers but no indication of what book they're from. Some of these cites are using the {{sfn}} template, which is also broken because of this. Jr8825 • Talk 21:27, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for bringing my attention to that. I've just addressed it. Titus Gold (talk) 23:00, 12 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look at those. I've helped you fix the ones you added to the bibliography (you didn't fully format the author names, and sfn only works if |last1= is used). However, cites 17 and 20-23 are still broken. Jr8825 • Talk 01:04, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks again. I've just sorted that now as far as I can see. Titus Gold (talk) 13:37, 13 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Jr8825 I don't think "Welsh rebellions" fully briefs on what the article is about. Perhaps: "Welsh rebellions for independence","Welsh rebellions of independence", "Welsh rebellions against English rule", "Welsh rebellions under English rule" or another suggestion that you may have might work? Thanks Titus Gold (talk) 21:26, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Welsh rebellions against English rule" or ""Welsh rebellions under English rule" work too, they're just longer. I don't have a strong opinion on the best option, you're welcome to move it to one of those titles. Jr8825 • Talk 21:50, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ok thanks for the reply. Moved to "Welsh rebellions against English rule". Think it's a bit clearer. Titus Gold (talk) 21:55, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Moore, David (2007-01-10). The Welsh Wars of Independence. The History Press. ISBN 978-0-7524-9648-1.

[1]