Talk:Welsh Triads

Proposed Spring Clean

This article seems to have gained a lot of stuff that doesn't belong here.

The fact there are a few references to some triads in the Mabinogi, for example, does not justify telling the story of the whole Four Branches here. --Cymrodor (talk) 05:16, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Proposed merger

The article Three Generous Men of Britain should be merged into the main Welsh Triads article. The individual triad is not notable enough to have its own article, and the only thing it really adds is that the Triads are briefly referred to in Susan Cooper's fiction, which could be included in a "trivia" or "popular culture" section here. Likewise, the reference to Rydderch in Lloyd Alexander's books could be included in his article. Any thoughts/objections? --Nicknack009 13:29, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Rhydderch article already has mention of and link to this page. Regarding the merge, well I'm not so sure. For me personally, the fact that it's been mentioned in at least two popular (also award-winning) fiction novels makes it sufficiently notable to stand alone. Also, while the article at present is short, it could be expanded with some history about why these three men were so named -- I haven't investigated but I'm sure the information is there. And there are plenty of other short or minor people/places/events that have their own articles. However, my feelings are not strong enough to formally object if you choose to merge it; but I would request please that this be left as a redirect, and that in the Triads article it have its own subsection, complete with the mention of its use in both books rather than having that info separated into a "trivia" section, so as to retain all the information as a unit. ++ Caveat: Yeah, I wrote this article so my comments are maybe not TOTALLY objective :) ++ --Bookgrrl 01:32, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and changed the article to a redirect. There was little information on the triad itself, except mentioning it appeared in the Susan Cooper article. That was the only bit that could be potentially added here, but it be trivia, and I don't really think that would be useful.--Cúchullain ^t/c 23:51, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

William Blake and The Welsh Triads

One of the items that has been floating around the second & third pages of my Wikipedia to-do list is to incorporate the fact that the English poet/artist William Blake made reference to the Triads in his (now lost) painting of the morning after the Battle of Camlann. He cited this work as his source for stating that of all of combatants only three survive (quoting from memory here): the Strong Man, the Handsome Man, & the Ugly Man. I haven't been able to identify which Triad Blake refers to, let alone how he ever heard of this work. It's something the average Cockney wouldn't know about, & Blake was a self-taught Cockney. However, his allusion to the Triads, even if fanciful (which was in keeping with 17th century Celtic scholarship) would be the first connection of the two in Modern times (i.e., since the story of Arthur went out of fashion in the 16th century), if not the first beyond beyond Wales. -- llywrch 16:41, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

That's one of Iolo Morganwg's Triads: "The three men who escaped from the battle of Camlan: Morvran son of Tegid who, being so ugly, everyone thought he was the devil from hell and fled before him; Sandde Angel-aspect, who having so fine a shape, so beautiful, and so lovely, that no one raised an arm against him, thinking that he was an angel from heaven; and Glewlwyd with the Mighty Grasp, for so large was his size and mighty his strength, that no one could stand before him, and every one fled at his approach. These are the three men who escaped from the battle of Camlan."

Iolo was a contemporary of Blake, spent some time in London, and his Triads were published during Blake's lifetime (1807 in Welsh, 1823 in English), so it's quite likely Blake got it from him. The triad itself predates Iolo - a version of it is found embedded in the roll-call of Arthur's men in the Middle Welsh tale Culhwch and Olwen: "...and Morvran the son of Tegid (no one struck him in the battle of Camlan by reason of his ugliness; all thought he was an auxiliary devil. Hair had he upon him like the hair of a stag). And Sandde Bryd Angel (no one touched him with a spear in the battle of Camlan because of his beauty; all thought he was a ministering angel). And Kynwyl Sant (the third man that escaped from the battle of Camlan, and he was the last who parted from Arthur on Hengroen his horse)." But Culhwch and Olwen wasn't translated into English until the mid 19th Century by Lady Charlotte Guest, so it's unlikely Blake would have known of it. --Nicknack009 21:19, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Nick, you might not believe that I was hoping you were correct, because I found your chronology does not stand up to closer examination. He wrote about the "three Britons" who survived the Battle of Camlann in his "A Descriptive Catalogue", published in 1809. Unless Blake could read Welsh -- which I strongly doubt -- then Iolo's books were not his source for this detail. But the similarity between Blake's description & these three personages is too striking to dismiss; & except for Iolo or Culhwch and Olwen, the only other place these three names appear together is in an account named "The Twenty-four Knights of Arthur's Court" which Rachel Bromwich reprints from Peniarth MS. 127. If it helps, Blake does mention two sources in connection with this picture: the poet Gray, who saw these three men "in the person of his bard on Snowdon"; & one Jacob Bryant, whom Blake mentions proved "the antiquities of every Nation under Heaven, is no less sacred than that of the Jews."

If I may be allowed to speculate a little here, I think it is possible that Blake could have heard of Iolo's triad in conversation -- either directly from Iolo, or from someone who knew both. Although Blake was considered an eccentric & was something of an outcast, he was not entirely cut off from all intellectual activity in London (Algernon Charles Swinburne was an early enthusiast of Blake, although he learned of the master after Blake's death, & helped to keep his memory alive). The lack of names for these three figures lends some support to my speculation of an oral source -- although Blake claimed to possess the "antiquities" this picture is based on. In any case, Blake's connection with Arthur & the Triads is a subject worthy of a graduate thesis; I wonder if such a study has been done -- or awaits doing. -- llywrch 04:51, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Sixes in the text

Can anyone explain to the uninformed (like me) what the '6's are doing in the quoted text? Geopersona (talk) 09:21, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

That's supposed to be a Middle Welsh V; I’ll change them Owain (talk) 16:04, 20 June 2021 (UTC)