Talk:We Believe (Newsboys song)

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Notes on creating "We Believe" page

I have created literally thousands of new pages on Wikipedia [1], [2] and improved on thousands of other articles there [3], [4]. I do that to propagate general knowledge to the readership as I firmly believe in utility of Wikipedia. But there are certain instances in which the page I am working on effects me personally and very deeply becoming a veritable joy to create and improve. It is true in only rare occasions as in covering a unique personality or a worthwhile event or significant work. This is also true of many of the traditional hymns as well as the many Christian Contemporary Music pages I have launched as in the case of "10,000 Reasons (Bless the Lord)", "Blessed Be Your Name", "Clear the Stage", "In Christ Alone", "Jesus Is a Soul Man", "Mighty to Save (song)", "My Hope Is Built on Nothing Less", "Where I Belong" or heavily edited as in the case of "Lord, I Lift Your Name on High". It's not that I listen ordinarily to Christian music. It's very rare that I listen to them actually. It is not just the case and there are so many new materials to listen to in general music from many countries and in many languages. For example. in this case, I didn't even know the song "We Believe" just yesterday. But it was my great delight to hear a version and the first version I heard was by the songwriter Travis Ryan himself on his YouTube channel which prompted me to run to Wikipedia, and lo and behold, as happens with all the other abovementioned pages I launched, they simply didn't exist in Wikipedia. Frankly I am genuinely surprised given the range of expertise we have in our tens of thousands of editors that no one bothers. Sometimes I am truly shocked. Yet I find this as an opportunity to me, a form of a blessing from above, or as if a mission given to me to serve The Almighty. So in that sense, I believe God does work in very mysterious ways and I am blessed through it all in words I cannot even describe. And yesm, if this also serves readers eventually, which I am sure it will, so much the better. But I am the richer for it even if no one even bothers to check the pages. On this occasion, it is a pledge from me to give the same attention, goodwill and the same treatment to any other song suggestions that you may find Wikipedia is lacking in. Just suggest them to me and I will be privileged to work on them as well, particularly if they are notable enough, and more importantly the hymn suggested sweeps me with its wonderfully inspiring lyrics, music and universality as well as performancewise. And in that sense, Wikipedia is also a true miracle in the making. I firmly believe in that as well. werldwayd (talk) 00:17, 27 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The hymn "We Believe" is the primary version

This article "We Believe (song)" was moved to "We Believe (Travis Ryan song), because there is another song called "We Believe" at "We Believe" (Good Charlotte song)". The move was done, and I am sure in good faith, by colleague User:Mburrell.

In this regard, and to counter claim that this is not the "primary version", I want to say that this particular contemporary hymn "We Believe", the so-called Travis Ryan song, has been nominated to "Song of the Year", "Pop/Contemporary Song of the Year" and "Worship Song of the Year" during the Dove Awards. Whereas the Good Charlotte song was just a minimal non consequential hit that only charted a very weak #39 in the Austrian Top 75 and relatively weak #38 in German Top 100. It was not a hit in any relevant chart in the States or Britain in any manner, and is not one of the well known songs of Good Charlotte fans anyway. So it is just a secondary non-essential song which was classified under "song" originally simply because it was the only one available on Wikipedia at the time. In comparison, "We Believe" hymn is a phenomenal hit with many many versions and now a worldwide hymn used in churches of many denominations. So it should have remained as the main "We Believe (song)".

Another problem with calling it "We Believe (Travis Ryan song)" is that it wasn't just a Travis Ryan song but a Travis Ryan, Richie Fike and Matt Hooper song, and by saying its a Travis Ryan song, we may be misleading or putting one of the writers as the dominant one, undermining the other two in the process. So it is a backward move actually.

A third problem is that the Travis Ryan version was recorded in 2015, yet the Newsboys version was recorded in 2013, although Newsboys had nothing to do with the lyrics or the music. So is it a Newsboys song now since they had the first recording as a band? And which version would we prefer now.

For all these reasons, and to avoid taking sides, I had added a very relevant note when I created the page as "We Believe (song)" by saying in the note: Created page for "A major Christian worship song winner of a number of awards. Avoid calling Newsboys (which popularized it) or Travis Ryan who wrote it. Keep a generic We Believe (song) instead)". Now with this move, we have a less clear and probably inaccurate description which could have been avoided by leaving it as "song" instead. So I believe it was a premature and rush move by colleague User:Mburrell that makes it more biased and obscure and subject to various contentions of whose song it is anyways, whereas keeping it as "song" would have saved us all these thorny issues. I would contend that this is the main "We Believe" and should be reverted to "We Believe (song)". In any case, I am happy it's just there in Wikipedia, which wasn't the case earlier, and this in itself is a big plus. But mind you, I have big reservations of calling it the Travis Ryan song werldwayd (talk) 23:24, 27 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 28 July 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: in the absence of evidence that the disambiguator "(Christian song)" is in use, move the page to We Believe (Newsboys song) at this time, per the discussion below and WP:SONGDAB ("Use the name of the performer who first published the song"). Dekimasuよ! 03:58, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We Believe (Travis Ryan song) → We Believe (song) – This is not my reason, as I do not agree with the reasoning. However, werldwayd has stated on my talk page and on Talk:We Believe (Travis Ryan song) reasons he feels are valid. To wit, although there are more than one songs names "We Believe", and one of those songs was recorded earlier and has a Wikipedia article that was created earlier, the one currently called We Believe (Travis Ryan song) is much more recognized in it's genre (Contemporary Christian Worship) than the other songs, and so it is more deserving of the title of primary song. Also, several people wrote it, and the original author did not record it until after another group did, so it would be confusing for it to be labeled after one of the original authors, who recorded it two years later. I acknowledge that my summary may not capture all the points that Werldwayd is stating and invite him to edit this summary to better present his point of view. I disagree that the reasoning is sufficient to specify one song as the primary song and only holder of the Wikipedia article title of "We Believe (song)", but feel that this needs to be discussed by neutral parties with senior editing or administrative experience in order to air out the issues. Mburrell (talk) 02:42, 28 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support Move This particular contemporary hymn "We Believe", the so-called Travis Ryan song, has been nominated to "Song of the Year", "Pop/Contemporary Song of the Year" and "Worship Song of the Year" during the Dove Awards. Whereas the other one the Good Charlotte song was just a minimal non consequential hit that only charted a very weak #39 in the Austrian Top 75 and relatively weak #38 in German Top 100. It was not a hit in any relevant chart in the States or Britain in any manner, and is not one of the well known songs of Good Charlotte fans anyway and uncomparable to the spread of the Christian one above, a phenomenal hit with many many versions and now a worldwide hymn used in churches of many denominations. So it should have remained as the main "We Believe (song)". Another problem with calling it "We Believe (Travis Ryan song)" is that it wasn't a Travis Ryan song but a song with multiple collaboration(Travis Ryan, Richie Fike and Matt Hooper), and by saying its a Travis Ryan song, it is problematic putting one of the writers as the dominant one, undermining the work of the other two in the process. A third problem is that the Travis Ryan version was recorded in 2015, yet the Newsboys version was recorded in 2013, although Newsboys had nothing to do with the lyrics or the music. So is it for some logic a Newsboys song as the first one recording it? So now which version are we talking about? Calling this contemporary tune We Believe (song) avoids all such confusion. werldwayd (talk) 16:05, 28 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose move, because a page isn't supposed to the primary topic of an incomplete disambiguation. Since We Believe (Good Charlotte song) exists as a page, it wouldn't be standard to move this song to "We Believe (song)". If you'd consider it a primary topic for "We Believe" (above all other things titled We Believe), then it should be suggested to be moved to the basename We Believe itself. Paintspot Infez (talk) 20:41, 28 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Actually part of the argument here is the accuracy in calling it We Believe (Travis Ryan song) which is iffy. We Believe (Christian song) for example may be less controversial. werldwayd (talk) 21:42, 28 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per Paintspot Infez. The proposed main title header We Believe (song) is, indeed, an incomplete disambiguation which, as of this writing, redirects to the We Believe dab page. The header should be either allowed to remain in its currently-existing form or rendered as the already-mentioned We Believe (Christian song). I would also Support We Believe (Newsboys song), the expanded We Believe (Fike, Hooper and Ryan song) or the fully expanded We Believe (Richie Fike, Matt Hooper and Travis Ryan song). Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 02:55, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In such a case, and considering all the choices by Roman Spinner, my preference would be We Believe (Christian song) werldwayd (talk) 16:15, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per Paintspot Infez. I did not have the logic to back up my earlier resistance, but that has been summed up nicely here. I do not know if a song can by given a genre in the article title, e.g. We Believe (Christian song), but if it can, great. Otherwise, I would support moving it to We Believe (Newsboys song) if they are the ones who first released it, and that is the primary song that interested people look for it under. Mburrell (talk) 21:25, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.