Talk:Way of the Celestial Masters

A fact from Way of the Celestial Masters appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 20 December 2006. The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the ancient Chinese sect known as the Way of the Celestial Master established a theocratic state in Sichuan province during the 2nd century CE?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2006/December.

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Five Pecks of Rice Rebellion

The explanation of the name is inadequate:

the ancient Chinese did not use pecks.
a peck is not equal to a bushel

My guess is they used a measure somewhat similar to a peck, which has been adopted in English translations.--Grahamec 01:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

The movement has been translated as either 'five bushels of rice' or 'five pecks of rice.' The usage of peck in scholarly literature is dominant. But you do raise a good point about them not being the same. Therefore for consistency, I changed bushel to peck. Zeus1234 01:35, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

10 January 2007

Tianshi School → Way of the Celestial Masters —(Discuss)— {{{3}}} —Zeus1234 22:39, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am going to try again and have this page changed back to its original name ‘Way of the Celestial Master.’ I think that in frenzy of comments posted during the last discussion with the person who changed the name of the article to ‘Tianshi School,’ much of my argument was lost. Therefore I am going to try and rearticulate it.

I wrote this article after having consulted much of the relevant English language literature on the topic, therefore I feel I am qualified to make a judgment on what is the predominant English-language usage. The name of the movement in Chinese is ‘Tianshi Dao,’ which translated roughly into ‘Way of the Celestial Master.’ This is name used in the vast majority of English language sources, although admittedly some translate it as ‘Way of the Heavenly Master.’ Tianshi school is NEVER used in any source I have come across.

The following is taken from Template talk:Taoism and was posted by the user Xuanyingzi. I feel it offers a good summary of the name of the school, and will include it here to bolster my argument.

It seems to me that Way of the Celestial Masters is the most appropriate way to refer to Tianshi dao in English. "Tianshi" literally means "Celestial Master" or "Heavenly Master". "Dao" of course is usually translated as "Way".

The name Tianshi, however, is somewhat ambiguous. As regards Tianshi dao, it may refer to:

(1) The first Tianshi, i.e., Zhang Daoling (2nd century CE)

(2) The current Tianshi at (almost) any time in Chinese history

(3) The entire series of sixty-four Tianshi (from the 2nd century to the present day)

In (1) and (2), one might translate "Way of the Celestial Master" -- i.e., the "Way" originated by Zhang Daoling, or the "Way" presided over by those who later held the title of Tianshi.

However, there seems to be a general consensus among scholars that Tianshi dao refers to the entire tradition represented by all Tianshi. In this sense, "Way of the Celestial Masters" (plural) is the most accurate translation. Scholars also say, in a more informal way, "the Celestial Masters" to mean Tianshi dao, or "the Way of the Celestial Masters". Few scholars, instead, would refer to Tianshi dao as "Tianshi School", except as a passing reference which they would not take as a literal translation. (Many scholars would also object to the use of "school" in this context, but we can leave this discussion for another day.)

Furthermore when we do a google search that only includes english language results, we can see that ‘Way of the Celestial Master’ (combined with its pluralized form) receives far more hits than ‘Tianshi Dao.’ ‘Tianshi School’ receives 6 hits. If we didn’t limit to English results, Tianshi Dao would bring back results in other langauges such as German and French

Tianshi Dao (English Results only) = 162 results [1]
Tianshi School (English only) = 6 results (101 if we count similar ones)[2]
Way of the Celestial Master = 52 results [3]
Way of the Celestial Masters = 495 results (English only)[4]

As wikipedias article name guidelines state:

From the Wikipedia page Naming Conventions [5]:

"Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature."

Because of the fact there are more English language results under the name ‘Way of the Celestial Masters,’ I strongly suggest that the article name be changed back to its orginal form ‘The Way of the Celestial Masters.’ Even the Britannica article is under the name ‘The Way of the Celestial Masters’ [6]Zeus1234 22:43, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If google is claimed to be a clumsy test, that still does not change the fact that the translated form of the name is still used more prominently. In most of the recent scholaship on the topic, 'Way of the Celestial Masters' or some derivative is used. I can attest to this mainly because I have done research on the Celestial Masters, and have had to consult these sources. I think that you need to have had some experience reading these books in order to see this. Zeus1234 14:29, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move (Old)

Tianshi School → Way of the Celestial Masters Zeus1234 22:42, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Add # '''Support''' or # '''Oppose''' on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.

Survey - Support votes

Support As explained above.Zeus1234 22:43, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Support Nominator's reasoning seems accurate, and while I appreciate that it may seem odd to have other related articles in their original, untranslated names while this one moves to someone who is well-versed in the original names, it seems that our English-speaking target audience would be less likely to spot this inconsistency as all of the terms would exist at the name which is most familiar to them, if that makes sense. GassyGuy 00:53, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Support use of English form per arguments presented. — AjaxSmack 07:06, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Support The article was originally created as "Way of the Celestial Masters" and moved to the current title without following WP:RM. It should be reverted and then discussed whether it is appropriate to name "Tianshi School", which I do not believe it is. --Kusunose 03:57, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Survey - Oppose votes

Oppose Nominating editor hasn't really given any new reasons that wasn't already mentioned in the last move nomination. And my rationale for opposing remains the same as the last move request poll. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 23:59, 10 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Response Remember Hong, you didn't make a single response after I added the section about English language only results. There were also no votes after I added that information. Therefore I would consider this to be new information.Zeus1234 00:27, 11 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I also remain unpersuaded. Google is a very clumsy test. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:55, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Add any additional comments:

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no consensus. If you have any questions, please contact me at my talk page. Ian Manka 15:02, 7 January 2007 (UTC) We have several possibilities including "The Celestial Masters", "The Way of the Celestial Masters", "The Celestial Master School" or leave it as "The Tianshi School", or revert it back to its previous name.[reply]

I personally think that we should revert the article back to its previous title "Way of the Celestial Master," or change it to "Way of the Celestial Masters." This name is preferred in the English language over Tianshi Dao, which returns fewer English language search results.

Page name

I have requested to revert article title to the previous title Way of the Celestial Master at Wikipedia:Requested moves#Uncontroversial proposals as it was moved to the current title without discussion. If someone want to change the title, please discuss first.

Oppose Other articles on Taoist schools use the Chinese name (see Lingbao School). Why should this one be different, especially if the name has several possible translations? Let's leave this where everyone can find it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:41, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Response: In the English scholarly literature about Daoism, all the schools use the orginal Chinese name, except for the Celestial Master school. Therefore it makes sense to have this article as an exception, as the English users are more familiar with the name 'Celestial Masters.' A good example of this is Robinet's book 'Taoism: Growth of a Religion.' [7] On the table of contents you can see that Shangqing and Lingbao remain untranslated, but Celestial Masters is translated. There are many more examples of this in other books. If anything, Celestial Masters might be a better name for the article. Zeus1234 18:56, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Support For all the reasons I have already listed.Zeus1234 18:56, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Because "Tianshi Dao" is more common than "Way of the Celestial Masters", and also because the other schools are named by romanised names. Furthermore, User:Zeus1234's argument is in accurate. For a detailed discussion, please see Template_talk:Taoism#School names. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 19:01, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Response: Me and Hong have had a long discussion about the move, much of which is summarized in the section below. I am confident that if you look at the discussion on the template page, and read the section I wrote below, you will see that Hong's argument is flawed.Zeus1234 19:04, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Reasons for Changing the Article Name

I am studying Daoism at university, and have thus consulted much of the relevant literature. I wrote an article about the Celestial Masters under the title Way of the Celestial Master, as I felt that it was a term that described the school as a movement and that was used in scholarly literature. Hong Qi Gong unilaterally moved the article to Tianshi School without any consultation, and broke the many links I had made to the original article.

Admittedly, the title of the article is not perfect. The problem with this title (as is with any translated name), is that many people describe the movement in different ways. The most prevalent seem to fall into two camps: Derivatives involving the words 'Celestial Master.' These include things such as 'Way of the Celestial Master,' 'Way of the Celestial Masters,' and 'The Celestial Masters.' The other term used is 'Tianshi Dao,' which the pinyin version of the Chinese name.

Out of all the recent books (written within the past 10 years) that I have looked at that adress the Celestial Masters, they usually begin by calling the movement 'Way of the Celestial Master,' with 'Tianshi Dao' is brackets afterwards to indicate the Chinese version. Sometimes they will then refer to the movement as a whole as simply 'The Celestial Master.'

Here is a list of searches using google books and regular google:

Google Books

Tianshi Dao = 27 google books search results [8]
Tianshi School = 0 google books search results [9]
Celestial Masters = 151 google books search results [10]
Celestial Master = 227 google books search results [11]
Way of the Celestial Master = 17 google books search results [12]
Way of the Celestial Masters = 23 google books search results [13]

Google

Tianshi Dao = 1930 results [14]
Tianshi Dao (English Results only) = 145 results [15]
Tianshi School = 3 results [16]
Way of the Celestial Master = 322 results [17]
Way of the Celestial Masters = 533 results [18]
Way of the Celestial Masters (English Results only) = 530 results [19]
Celestial Masters = 13400 results [20]
Tianshi School = 3 results [21]

As you can see, the google book search, which offers a way to see what terms scholars are using, 'Celestial Masters' and its derivatives far outplace 'Tianshi Dao.'

In the google search, the same can be seen. As Hong pointed out in our animated discussion on the Template:Taoism discussion, some of the results for the searches dont specifically refer to the Taoists. This can be seen in both the searches for 'Tianshi Dao,' and 'Celestial Masters' Tianshi Dao returns many results from French and German sites, and in addtion a website selling Chinese medicine also had the title 'Tianshi Dao.' Even if we were to discount half of the Celestial Master links, they would still vastly outnumber the results for Tianshi Dao. We must also take into consideration the English language search of Tianshi Dao, which list only 145 results compared 530 results for "Way of the Celestial Masters."

As wikipedias article name guidelines state:

From the Wikipedia page Naming Conventions [22]:

"Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature."

Note the 'English speakers' part that is bolded. Clearly English speakers are more familiar with the term 'Way of the Celestial Masters' than with 'Tianshi Dao.' Zeus1234 08:10, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Therefore, I am in support of moving the article back to its original title Way of the Celestial Master.Zeus1234 18:56, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As discussed in Template_talk:Taoism#School names, the Google searches for "Celestial Master" and "Celestial Masters" are inaccurate. Firstly, because the term "Celestial Master" does not fall solely in the realm of Daoism, and Google searches return results that are completely unrelated to Daoism. Secondly, "Celestial Masters" is not the same as "Way of the Celestial Masters". The first is a title and a noun to refer to people, the second is a proper name for a school or a sect. So in fact, from Google search results, we see that "Tianshi Dao" is more commonly used, even in English. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 19:04, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Celestial Masters" is the same as "Way of the Celestial Master". The first can refer to the name of the school, in addition to the people. For example, as I have already indicated, many scholars use the two terms interchangably, with the first formal term being "Way of the Celestial Master", and then subsequent uses simply being the "Celestial Master." I have studied the Celestial Masters in depth, and in my research, have found that this is the way scholars refer to them.Zeus1234 19:11, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also, if you combine the 'Way of the Celestial Master' with 'Way of the Celestial Masters' google book searches, they outnumber the Tianshi Dao search results 40-27. A new book by Pregadio (Great Clarity-2006) not on google books, uses exclusively 'Way of the Celestial Master' as a description of the movement. This would indicate that scholars seem to be moving in a direction that favours the English translation.Zeus1234 19:14, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Again, "Celestial Masters" is not the same as "Way of the Celestial Master". Google search results for "Celestial Masters" do not justify the article name of "Way of the Celestial Master". Following your logic, why not name the article "Celestial Master School" or "Celestial Master Sect"? "Way of the Celestial Master" is much less common than "Tianshi Dao". Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 19:21, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you, "Celestial Master School" would be fine. It would be more accurate than "Tianshi School."Zeus1234 19:25, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So you agree that Google searches for "Celestial Masters" is inaccurate in determining whether or not to use "Way of the Celestial Master" then? That's great. So let's disregard your argument that were based on Google searches for "Celestial Masters". But I disagree with using "Celestial Master School" as that seems to be an uncommon term too. It only yielded 9 search results on Google[23]. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 19:31, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's more than the 3 results "Tianshi School" gives. [24] I support naming the article using some version of 'Celestial Master,' as it is far more common on google as a search result. I do agree that it is innacurate is determining whether to use "Way of the Celestial Master." I do not think that 'Tianshi' should be in the article title.Zeus1234 19:37, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Then let's move the article to "Tianshi Dao". But I believe you and I had this discussion before, specifically about Quanzhen School, on whether or not "Dao" or "Pai" is more appropriate than "School". You had decided unilaterally that "School" is more appropriate. So that's why I would like to conform to using "School". But if you change your mind and believe "Dao" is better, I'll be more than happy to go along with that. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 19:42, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I still think that a title using Celestial Master would be better, simply because it is a more common term in English. I didn't think Pai was a good term, simply because it is not used 'at all in English language sources. If we are supposed to make articles better for people who speak english as per the wikipedia guidelines, some title using Celestial Master is better than one using "Tianshi."Zeus1234 19:46, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Then it stands to reason we translate all the names of the schools, right? But if we are taking into consideration common usage instead, we should use "Tianshi Dao", because that is more common than "Way of the Celestial Masters". Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 20:20, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Logically this would be correct. However, as I previsouly pointed out, The Celestial master school is the only Daoist School that is consistently translated into English. Therefore, "Tianshi Dao" should be translated into English.Zeus1234 20:43, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Right, so we're going with common usage instead. In which case, "Tianshi Dao" would be the right article name because it's more common. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 20:45, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Celestial Masters is more common, and it can be used to refer to the school in addition to the school's adherents. Why don't we change the article name to 'The Celestial Masters'? Zeus1234 20:48, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Again, "Way of the Celestial Masters" do not yield as many Google search results as do "Tianshi Dao". Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 20:57, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You are correct, but 'Celestial Masters' yields far more, and this can also be used as a name for the school. And, yes some of these search results are bad, but so are the search results for 'Tianshi Dao,' which often link to German and French websites. In fact, if you removed all these non-english results, it is entirely possible that 'Way of the Celestial Master' outnumbers 'Tianshi Dao' in useful search results.Zeus1234 21:01, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Again, "Celestial Masters" is a title and noun to refer to certain people. It does not refer to the name of the school or sect. "Celestial Masters" do not justify a rename to "Way of the Celestial Masters" because they are two different terms that refer to two different things. The Google search results for "Celestial Masters" contain many webpages that discuss the people that are called Celestial Masters. The Google search results for "Celestial Masters" also returns many results that do not actually refer to Daoism, as "Celestial Masters" is not a term that fall solely in the realm of Daoism. On the other hand, "Tianshi Dao" returns more Google results than do "Way of the Celestial Masters". Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 21:10, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It does return more search results, but you have conveniently ignored the fact that most of them are in foreign languages. If we do English results only, there are only 145 results! [25]. Therefore, in fact "Way of the Celestial Master" is more prevalent and returns more search results!Zeus1234 21:17, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

For your info "Way of the Celestial Masters" returns 530 English results.[26]Zeus1234 21:21, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The raw google test is notoriously unreliable; and Master and Masters should not be combined; the article must be at one or the other. I also observe, from the google.books search for this title, that translations vary as far as New Heavenly Masters School. I would consider on this evidence simplifying to Tianshi, if it is unambiguous. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:28, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Right, there are many different ways to translate the name. And seeing as how we're talking about a proper noun for the name of one specific school or sect, we should stick with "Tianshi School" or "Tianshi Dao". Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 19:32, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the older books use 'Heavenly Master,' but all the recent books use 'Celestial Master.' There seems to be consensus in academia that 'Celestial Masters' is correct.Zeus1234 19:36, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The book I quoted is the third on this Google Books search; Eskildsen's The Teachings and Practices of the Early Quanzhen Taoist Masters from 2004. You excite skepticism. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:45, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I was wrong, it appears as though quite a few books use "Heavenly Master."Zeus1234 19:52, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think that heavenly master isnt used as often because it is also a term used in other religions. For example in this book about Christianity [27]

I would suspect it is Orientalism: "Celestial" is just so much more Chinese. But be that as it may, I have a modest proposal. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:26, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A Modest Proposal

Why not leave this article here, and write a new article Celestial Masters, being a list of those who have claimed the title, either in this tradiition or in some other. Two subjects; two names. When all else fails, try compromise. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:26, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I do think that the prevalence of the translation in English scholarship should be recognized. I find this matter quite important simply because I've written a paper on the Celestial Masters, and none of the books our articles I used feature 'tianshi' in any sort of prominent capacity. I think that with the name of article including Tianshi as is, it does not recognize this dominance of the translated term.

I think it is important to recognize that some form of the English translation of 'Tianshi Dao' is used in the majority of English Scholarship. I would support any form of 'Celestial Master' or 'Heavenly Master' going to a disambiguation page with several articles listed. One could be list of the Celestial Masters themselves, another could be an article titled "Tianshi Dao" that leads to a page about the school. In addition, a third unwritten article (that I could write) could be added to the disambiguation that discusses the Zhengyi sect, which was a continuation of the Celestial Masters that arose in the Song dynasty in around the 11th century. Perhaps prominet masters such as Zhang Daoling could be included on such a disambiguation page. This way, it is recognized that the English translation is important.

Ultimately I would prefer the article to be called by its original title "The Way of the Celestial Master," but I am willing to accept whatever is decided by a consensus or agreement, or the disambiguation proposal I proposed.Zeus1234 21:44, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The name

As a complete outsider, I see the current name as the worst of three possible choices: Tianshi Dao (traditional name, which there is a movement now to favor), Tianshi School (a mish-mash of English and Chinese), or the original name. Xiner (talk, email) 20:25, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I wouldn't mind at all going with "Tianshi Dao". But I think User:Zeus1234 has a problem with using "Dao" in the name. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 20:34, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I would prefer that over 'Tianshi School.' My concern is that if it is changed to 'Tianshi Dao,' you (User:HongQiGong) will change all the other Taoist school articles from being for example 'Shangqing School,' to 'Shangqing Pai.' If you can agree that the names of the other articles stay as is, I will happily consent to a change of name to 'Tianshi Dao,' and forget about this dispute.Zeus1234 20:38, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I won't change the other article names without discussion, and I know we disagree on how best to name them, so I'll just leave them as they are unless someone else brings up possible name changes in discussion. As for this article - so we agree on "Tianshi Dao"? If so, would you do the honours and retract the change request? Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 20:49, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Moved the page as well. Glad this dispute is over.Zeus1234 20:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move. JPG-GR (talk) 22:17, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tianshi Dao → Way of the Celestial Masters

I see there's a bit of a history here already, but I've reviewed the talk page, and it seems that a policy has been overlooked which deals with this exactly. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) addresses this, so I think we should reopen it, although I think the policy is pretty clear here. -Oreo Priest ^talk 04:56, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll see if I can deal with this when I get back home. However, the whole change thing was an utter nightmare that I am not keen to repeat. I would like it to be changed if possible though. Zeus1234 (talk) 11:16, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It seems as if no-one has objected in two weeks. Does this mean we can do it? -Oreo Priest ^talk 11:33, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sadly no. There has to be an official request made. Look up the WP policy on moving pages. I'm back home for now, and so can deal with this, but I honestly think it will fail. Zeus1234 (talk) 15:44, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done! -Oreo Priest ^talk 23:11, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support The arguments are explained above, but the use of English, as brought up by Oreo Priest, is another compelling reason to move this page. Zeus1234 (talk) 02:03, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support Way of the Celestial Masters is clearly the English term for this group. -Oreo Priest ^talk 07:19, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Five Pecks of Rice Rebellion

The Five Pecks of Rice Rebellion occurred in 184, the same year as the Yellow Turban Rebellion. They seem to be very similar, but this article says the Five Pecks of Rice Rebellion was successful while the Yellow Turban Rebellion article indicates that rebellion was not successful. Were they the same? Can someone knowledgeable about this clarify this issue? Wakablogger2 (talk) 07:14, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]