Talk:Waterloo Bay massacre

Parking spot for information from Iris Burgoyne

I'm just parking this here, as it has been uncited since at least December 2015:

Aboriginal woman Iris Burgoyne has written that there is a story, in the oral history of South Australian Aboriginal people, about such a massacre at Elliston in the mid-19th century. The story Burgoyne described features details very similar to the story as recounted in written sources. Burgoyne stated she heard the story from survivors of the massacre, a claim that may suggest the massacre recounted was not the alleged massacre of 1848, as Burgoyne was only born in 1936. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:13, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

I have a vauge memory I'm responsible for this. I probably didn't have access to the source text at that moment so didn't do a proper cite. Is this better?

In 2000, Aboriginal woman Iris Burgoyne wrote about a story, in the oral history of South Australian Aboriginal people, about such a massacre at Elliston in the mid-19th century.[REF] The story Burgoyne described features details very similar to the story as recounted in written sources. Burgoyne stated she heard the story from survivors of the massacre.

[REF] = Burgoyne, Iris (2000), The Mirning: We Are the Whales, Magabala Books, ISBN 9781875641567, This story was passed to me by my people. Their spoken words were always the truth. As young girls at Koonibba, we sat and listened to the old people like Jack Joonary, Jilgina Jack and Wombardy. They were well over a hundred. They shared many of their experiences. They told us about how they survived the Elliston massacres in about 1839 and 1849. Jack Jacobs from Franklin Harbour, old lame Paddy and Dick Dory spoke about it as well. That day they escaped death as they tricked the European horsemen and ran into the bushes. They stood and watched in horror as their people were driven off the cliffs into the sea. [...]

If she was, say, 6 years old listening to the elders in 1942 then these survivors, who must have been at least 3 years old in 1848, must have been aged at least 94 at the time of telling, but then she said some were well over 100. So it's quite plausible. Hence the last sentence can go! Donama (talk) 06:55, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Brilliant, thanks Donama. I've re-inserted it as a quotation with the citation. Do you have page number(s)? Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:10, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Ah sorry. I do not. I'm time poor for visiting libraries at the moment so I'm going to hope someone else follows this up in the meantime but if they don't I'll eventually get to it. Thank you for all your excellent work on this, Peacemaker67. Btw, the new memorial at Elliston and the research that was commissioned will no doubt be published at some point so it can be absorbed into the article to clarify the current state of affairs. Donama (talk) 00:10, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

GA

Not doing a formal review, but (much as I've always thought your work is terrific) this fails at drawing a NPOV balance between contested perspectives from a time in which few historical records exist. Statements such as "Some Aboriginal people from the west coast of South Australia rely on oral traditions regarding a massacre, and continue to believe that a large-scale massacre did occur" definitively take the side, in Wikipedia-voice, that it did not - when four white academics not finding official record of a massacre in a region that was at that time extremely remote from white colonial authorities is extremely weak definitive evidence that it did not.

We know that there isn't official record that it occurred. We know the oral history that it did, and what the various sources about both of these things have to that effect. The article goes far beyond this, though, and takes an opinionated editorial stance on the subject. The Drover's Wife (talk) 05:38, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

I am concerned that you think this. I will go over the material to see what else I could add that would make it more neutral. The four white people are historians, professional or otherwise, and Foster et al (being three more white people, professional academics in this case) are more circumspect, perhaps I haven't captured that at all well. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:01, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. I hate to be difficult because your work was absolutely amazing the last time you wound up on an area of common interest. The Drover's Wife (talk) 09:12, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Hopefully I have improved it somewhat. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:28, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

You really have - well done. Not an easy topic to cover well by any means. The Drover's Wife (talk) 04:18, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, it made my brain hurt, but hopefully I have done justice to it now. Regards, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:25, 18 December 2016 (UTC)