Talk:Warren Farrell

location change

I have removed the location of the sentence, “He is a leading figure of the Men’s Rights Movement” because “Men’s Rights” implies misogyny. Prior to moving, I had worked as Dr. Farrell’s assistant in his home office with his wife. I know no one who is more female empowering than he is--to me, his wife and every woman he encounters. He is still the feminist he always was as long as feminism does not mean objecting to also having compassion for the challenges faced by boys and men.  He often says, “We are all in the same family boat. When only one sex wins, both sexes lose.”

In both a search of Warren's website (warrenfarrell.com) and in a Google search, I can find no place in which Dr. Farrell describes himself as a Men’s Rights person. His web page features his decades of work on couples’ communication, plus a digital video course on couples’ communication, plus his books such as The Boy Crisis. In both The Boy Crisis and on his YouTubes he consistently identifies as an advocate for “a gender liberation movement, in which both sexes are freed from the rigid roles of the past toward more flexible roles for the future.”

That said, I understand that since the media does often refer to Dr. Farrell that way, that it should not be ignored, so I am adding your “men’s rights” appellation to the “Critical Reception” section, as: “Farrell’s advocacy for boys and men’s issues is often criticized in the media as making him ‘a leading figure of the men’s rights movement’; GQ calls Farrell “The Martin Luther King of the men’s movement.” AOEA23 (talk) 20:29, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Hello AOAE23. I am very glad that you had a positive experience working for Warren Farrell. As you should, of course. I am sure that he is a very nice man in many ways. However, Wikipedia does not and cannot work on the basis of personal opinions like yours and mine. For one thing, of course we have no idea if you are who you say you are. Over the years, because of this, Wikipedia had developed rules, which means that we have to focus on what reliable sources say about this, and there are many sources linking Farrell to the men's rights movement.[1][2][3] Contrary to what you say, Farrell was interviewed as a Men's rights activist in 2017 [4]. I will add, for what it is worth that Men's rights activists do not accept that they are misogynist, and the appellation is not pejorative. Slp1 (talk) 18:22, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

The Wisconsin Public Radio (WPR) article you cite as disagreeing with my assertion is in reality reinforcing precisely what I am saying:

First, the headline creator and interviewer both label Dr. Farrell as associated with “The Men’s Rights Movement” and Dr. Farrell responds to what the interviewer asks about the movement, and explains how to reduce the anger that is the mask of vulnerability that leads to both misogyny and misandry. Not only does he never say that he is a men’s rights activist, to the contrary he explains that he was a supporter of the Hillary Clinton campaign and worked with her top advisers to get her elected. His web site features pictures of him with Hillary Clinton, President Bill Clinton, Robert Redford and Alan Alda. But not a single men’s rights person.

Second, the WPR reporter cites the fact that a reporter calls the men’s rights movement “an army of misogynists.” I just Googled “men’s rights” and “misogyny” and got 124,000 results! To disavow the connection is not accurate.

Third, here is how Dr. Farrell describes his beliefs in this article that he wrote that was published in Newsweek (Feb 15, 2021):

“We need neither a women's movement blaming men; nor a men's movement blaming women. We need a gender liberation movement, freeing both sexes from the rigid roles of the past toward more flexible roles for our future. We are all in the same family boat. When only one sex wins, both sexes lose.”

Working with top advisers to Hillary Clinton toward her election is not what someone who is a men’s rights’ activist does. Dr. Farrell has taught couples’ communication courses for 30 years, and his next book is on that topic (Role Mate to Soul Mate, to be published by BenBella Press in 2024). AOEA23 (talk) 20:55, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Of course MRAs are linked to misogyny. But you should go to the Men's rights activist talk page and see how many times MRAs have tried to get the misogyny designation removed from that article. MRAs deny the connection with misogyny, claim that they love and respect women, just want rights for men, that they have a wide tent of views politically, etc etc, exactly as you say Farrell does.

At Wikipedia with very limited exceptions we do not require people to self-identify for labels such as this. It suffices that a lot of reliable secondary sources describe him in that way. The fact that he is widely perceived as a father/leader/founder suggests that this article needs to contain that information. The fact that he has appeared frequently at Men's rights conferences suggests that he does not mind being associated with the term.

I have not reverted your edits about this, as I want to get the opinions of other editors to help resolve this dispute, so I am pinging people who have recently commented on this page and made significant edits to the article .@Aquillion: @Ciridae: @Schnitzella:

I have reverted your removal of the NPOV tag. If you read the section above, you will see that it was added because multiple editors have found it "comically slanted" and "clearly unbalanced " towards Farrell. If that is true, you have just made that problem worse rather than better so you should not be removing the tag. I have also added a conflict of interest tag, because you do have a conflict of interest for this subject. In addition, large chunks of this article in the past were likely contributed by his staff, his wife, or Farrell himself, the evidence being including for example personal photos etc. [5] and Personal info eg. Mother/Father/children's names [6] and paid editor User:Unseen remnant who basically only edited Farrell related topics and Oncoplastic surgery which his wife promotes [7][8]. Do not remove these tags again. Slp1 (talk) 09:04, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Actually, did you previously edit Wikipedia as Unseen remnant? This conversation sounds very much like the above.[9] It is not a problem but best to be upfront about it if it is true, especially as you were a paid editor. Slp1 (talk) 10:08, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Slp1, Thanks for pinging me. Sorry I did not reply earlier, I took a short break from editing! I agree that Farrell should be linked to the Men's Rights movement as he is often mentioned as a 'founder' in other articles related to the movement. As I have stated previously, what I am most concerned about in this article is its severe lack of balance, especially now that associates and employees of Farrell's have evidently contributed to the page. Because the Men's Rights movement is quite closely linked with anti-feminism and unfortunately also misogyny, it is extremely important that articles on related figures/topics include these criticisms and are written neutrally. Sadly, I have also found that many other articles concerning Masculism are similarly slanted to a concerning degree. Schnitzella (talk) 19:47, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

COI tag (July 2023)

Close connections of Farrell have edited the page in significant ways. Slp1 (talk) 08:21, 20 July 2023 (UTC) See these edits/editors and the the editor above: [10] and Personal info eg. Mother/Father/children's names [11] and paid editor User:Unseen remnant who basically only edited Farrell articles and Oncoplastic surgery which his wife promotes [12][13]. --Slp1 (talk) 09:06, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

New Edit - Intro Paragraph

After pouring through the “Talk” section, I'm reaching out with a proposal to update the description of Warren Farrell's background and contributions on his Wikipedia page with what I think is a fair and win-win solution.

Here's the current sentence:

"Farrell initially came to prominence in the 1970s as a supporter of second wave feminism but has since become a leading figure of the men's rights movement.[1][2][3]"

Why I agree with the including of the men’s rights movement:

I think that it is accurate that Dr. Farrell is perceived that way, but since he doesn’t write, speak or do podcasts aligning himself with men’s rights, and sees “men’s rights” as associated with misogyny as was documented in the Google search mentioned in the Talk section, I think the “men’s rights” part should be included in the Criticism section (as was done recently and still remains there.) It would be more balanced and less biased to explain his transition to boys, men’s and fathers’ issues by his more recent books and his transition to couples’ communication issues by his couples’ workshops around the country.

Therefore, I believe that the current sentence might benefit from a more comprehensive and nuanced representation of his involvement and evolution.

Here’s the proposed revision of the first paragraph:

"Farrell initially came to prominence in the 1970s as a supporter of second wave feminism, serving on the New York City Board of the National Organization for Women (NOW). Farrell's more recent books have focused on the issues currently facing boys, men and fathers. Farrell’s advocacy for a “gender liberation movement” with “both sexes walking a mile in each other’s moccasins” has led to his conducting couples’ communication workshops for the past 30 years (Esalen 2023) with his next book being Role Mate to Soul Mate.(Dan Riley,2023)

The Intention

The intention behind this proposed edit is to provide a more detailed and balanced view of Farrell's background. By including information about his service on the New York City Board of the National Organization for Women (NOW) during the 1970s, we acknowledge his historical involvement in the feminist movement. Additionally, mentioning his more recent focus on issues concerning boys, men, fathers, and couples' communication showcases the breadth of his work beyond his role in the men's rights movement. Yet it is true that some critics feel that anyone who articulates boys’ and men’s issues must not understand the deeper and more ubiquitous issues of girls and women, and therefore be a “men’s rights” person and thus a misogynist, the men’s rights reference should be included in the criticism section.

I believe that this revised description provides readers with a more accurate understanding of Farrell's contributions to both feminism and men's issues, and it paints a well-rounded picture of his career. I'm open to any feedback or suggestions, and I look forward to contributing to the improvement of this article.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Best regards,

Hiking Mountaineer Hiking Mountaineer (talk) 18:54, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Hiya Hiking Mountaineer, aka Farrell’s assistant and presumably the same assistant who have posted here and edited the article in the past to mold the text in the past under multiple usernames (Unseen Remnant and OAEA23). Reincarnating yourself as another editor when challenged and pretending to be new and independent does not work and is against the rules here. See Wp:sockpuppet. It is especially foolish to add and then delete notes from your boss Farrell which make clear that he wrote the proposed text above and that the goal to is to massage this article before his new book is released.[14] Given the excessive and ongoing problems I will be reporting this whole situation to the conflict of interest noticeboard. Slp1 (talk) 01:27, 22 August 2023 (UTC)01:27, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

I feel the reference to "men's rights" should be moved to a criticism section. In the context of this point in history, “Men’s Rights” is associated with Incels and MGTOW and misogyny. Farrell is anything but: he was a fundraiser for Hillary Clinton, and frequently advised her campaign through Jen Klein, now the Chair of the White House Gender Policy Council. He was invited by President Obama to be on the advisory board of the White House Council on Women and Girls.

The first of the three references in the “men’s rights” sentence is a biased source and should be removed.

That said, I know that Dr. Farrell is often criticized by being labeled as a “Men’s Rights” activist, and so as a previous editor suggested, I think that is appropriate for inclusion in the section on criticisms of him with the other two references intact.

He also has 9 books out now, not seven. So I would suggest the following for the opening two paragraphs:

Warren Thomas Farrell (born June 26, 1943) is an American political scientist and activist who initially came to prominence in the 1970s as a supporter of second wave feminism. He is the author of nine books on the issues of men, women, fathers, and couples’ communication. He served for three years on the New York City Board of the National Organization for Women (NOW). Farrell advocates for "a gender liberation movement", with "both sexes walking a mile in each other's moccasins".

Farrell’s books cover history, law, sociology and politics (The Myth of Male Power); couples' communication (Women Can't Hear What Men Don't Say, and Role Mate to Soul Mate^[7]) economic and career issues (Why Men Earn More); child psychology and child custody (Father and Child Reunion^[9] ) ; and infant to adult biology, psychology and socialization (Why Men Are The Way They Are, The Liberated Man and The Boy Crisis). Strutman (talk) 18:49, 27 September 2024 (UTC)