Talk:War in Abkhazia (1992–1993)/Archives/2023/November

Reworking the Russian role section

As I'd promised I've written it anew. I want to point out that:

1. all the facts that had been there stayed. I've shortened a bit Georgian Parliament declarations but imho it's not a very big deal.

2. All the new facts were taken from the HRW report (VIOLATIONS OF THE LAWS OF WAR AND RUSSIA'S ROLE IN THE CONFLICT - http://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/g/georgia/georgia953.pdf)

Finally I don't claim it's a comprehensive review of the issue and more facts may have to be added in future. Alaexis 17:54, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

OK. I agree that the HRW report is a good source, but it is outdated and not very comprehensive. It also lacks political analysis due to quite understandable reasons. I've got a collection of many citations from the Western scholarly works on this particular issue. Unfortunately, I have very limited time right now, but I'll add more info a bit later. Also, there has always been a strong suspicion that Russia exploited the Abkhazian war to force Georgia into the CIS and to achieve the ligitimization of the Russian military presence in Georgia (Soviet/Russian bases had officially been declared as occupational in 1991). Once referenced, this should also be mentioned in the article. It was a critical point in the contemporary Russo-Georgian relations. --Kober^Talk 19:02, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

The Georgia's entry into the CIS has more to do with the civil war than with Georgian-Abkhaz war afaik. I don't know whether it should be added here also. Some political analysis is of course needed. I think that more global things should go to Georgian-Abkhaz Conflict article (or else I don't understand why it was created) Alaexis 19:22, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Kober is correct. Shevardnadze forced his government to sign the CIS agreement soon after fall of Sukhumi. Georgian membership in CIS was determined all due to Abkhaz conflict. Ldingley 20:05, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Because of the Russian government support of Georgian army with military equipment is confirmed information, it should at least be a disputed reality on the Georgian side. Especially since there was a civil war in Georgia between Government of Georgia and State Council of the Republic of Georgia that was supported by Yeltsin (Russia), who was in good relationship with Eduard Shevardnadze (a leader of the State Council of the Republic of Georgia), and this army of State Council of the Republic of Georgia then entered the territory of Abkhazia - again with a military equipment that was given to Shevardnadze's army by Russian government. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Serfunoheda (talk • contribs) 07:45, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Russia's role in the conflict was largely determined by Russian parliament (Yeltsin's opposition) and Russian military. This eventually led to shift in Russia's policy towards pro-Abkhaz position. Russian parliament adopted resolution which fully supported Abkhazia, condemned Georgia's actions and called to suspend transferring weapons to Georgia. Russian military in Gudauta fought on Abkhaz side. Shevardnadze was in good relationship with Yeltsin, but he condemned hardliners in Russian military, whom he called "reactionary forces" wanting to revive Soviet Union, for supporting Abkhazia and waging war against Georgia. Russian military accused Shevardnadze of being responsible for collapse of Soviet Union and they had bad relations.Silveresc (talk) 22:34, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

One of the commanders Tengiz Kitovani stated that Russia officially gave tanks and other weapons to Georgian military forces.

The shift in Russia's policy towards pro-Abkhaz position started closer in the late period of the war, when Russia saw that Abkhaz forces were pulling victory over to their side. Anyway Russia was not completely supporting Abkhazian side even after this shift, and still had ties with Georgia. As an example: In February 1994, Russia and Georgia signed a series of agreements that provided for Russian assistance in the development of the Georgian army, the deployment of Russian border guards, and, most importantly, the right of Russia to keep its military bases in Georgia. In return, the territorial integrity of Georgia was recognized. That is why we put Russia as a supporter of both the Georgian and Abkhaz sides.

Please, give the sources that proof that Russian military in Gudauta fought on Abkhaz side. Serfunoheda (talk) 12:56, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

"One of the commanders Tengiz Kitovani stated that Russia officially gave tanks and other weapons to Georgian military forces." - Can you read the article? This is already explained in the article:

Russia transferred arms to Georgia under the bilateral agreements on division of Soviet military assets. It included Georgia's main battle tanks, armored personnel carriers, heavy artillery and heavy mortars. The whole Akhaltsikhe motorised rifle division was turned over to Georgia on 22 September 1992.[52] However, on September 25, 1992, Russian Supreme Council (parliament) passed a resolution which condemned Georgia, supported Abkhazia and called for the suspension of the delivery of weapons and equipment to Georgia and the deployment of a Russian peacekeeping force in Abkhazia. It was sponsored by Sergei Baburin, a Russian deputy who met Vladislav Ardzinba and argued that he was not that much sure that Abkhazia was part of Georgia. With the adoption of the resolution, the transfer of military equipment to the Georgian army as part of the ongoing division of Soviet military assets was halted.[53][54] However, some arms still reached Georgia in semi-legal and illegal ways. Russia's warfare market was the main source of weapons for both conflicting sides.[55]

This can not be described as "supporting Georgia" in any way, while Russians profiteered off war by selling weapons, Russian parliament officially passed resolution banning giving weapons to Georgia. And this occured already in September 1992.

"The shift in Russia's policy towards pro-Abkhaz position started closer in the late period of the war, when Russia saw that Abkhaz forces were pulling victory over to their side" - No, Russian parliament already passed resolution in support of Abkhazia on 25 September, 1992. This encouraged Abkhaz's brutal Gagra offensive. In November 1992, the Russian Air Force conducted heavy air strikes against the villages and towns in Abkhazia predominantly populated by Georgians. All of this is mentioned in the article. Maybe Russia's pro-Abkhaz position became more pronounced in the course of war, but it was shifted towards Abkhaz side from the beginning.

"Anyway Russia was not completely supporting Abkhazian side even after this shift, and still had ties with Georgia. As an example: In February 1994, Russia and Georgia signed a series of agreements that provided for Russian assistance in the development of the Georgian army, the deployment of Russian border guards, and, most importantly, the right of Russia to keep its military bases in Georgia. In return, the territorial integrity of Georgia was recognized" - No, there was no war in 1994 between Georgia and Abkhazia. The reason why that treaty was signed has not much to do with War in Abkhazia but with Georgian Civil War. In September 1993, after Georgia's defeat in Abkhazia, Georgia's President-in-exile Zviad Gamsakhurdia launched rebellion against Shevardnadze government and caputed large parts of Western Georgia. He was on his way to Tbilisi (Georgian capital) and Shevardnadze asked Russian military for help. Russia, who wanted to expand its influence in the South Caucasus, accepted that proposal, and after that, Georgia joined CIS and those treaties were signed between Georgia and Russia. SO, that does not have to do much with War in Abkhazia. During War in Abkhazia, relationsh between Russia and Georgia were tense, which you can read about here. Shevardnadze referred to Russia in his letter to UN as "evil empire" and Georgia accused Russia of waging "undeclared war" against Georgia. The relations began to improve after Georgia Civil War.

"That is why we put Russia as a supporter of both the Georgian and Abkhaz sides." - And that's completely inaccurate and infactual. Also, please remove "Abkhazworld" as a source, Wikipedia relies on reliable sources, not on Abkhaz separatist propaganda outlets.Silveresc (talk) 13:23, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Abkhazworld is a partisan source, so we may use it with attribution in the article body to say that according to the Abkhazians Russia also supported Georgia, but it's not suitable for the infobox. Alaexis_¿question? 19:50, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it should be removed from the infobox.Silveresc (talk) 19:22, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

I completely agree with Silveresc. On July 2, 1993, a battle between Georgian fighters and Russian paratroopers took place near the village of Tamish. 149.3.83.160 (talk) 22:34, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

1) How does the fact that Russia transferred weapons to Georgian forces at the beginning of the war not give the right to include Russia on the side of Georgia in Wikipedia, even as a disputed thing?

2) Please, provide me the sources that confirm that a battle between Georgian fighters and Russian paratroopers took place near the village of Tamish. Bigboomsoil (talk) 23:06, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Russia transferred Soviet weapons to Georgia as a part of bilateral agreements on division of Soviet military assets. That hardly counts as supporting Georgia in the war. The source you added does not even mentions war in Abkhazia and it does not says that Russia supported Georgia in the war. All of this can not be used to add Russia on Georgian side in infobox, moreover, majority of users here don't support that.Silveresc (talk) 19:58, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

The source that I added will be included simply to make it clear that Russia is giving weapons to Georgia. Bigboomsoil (talk) 21:49, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

This was made accidentally. Explanation is below. Bigboomsoil (talk) 22:05, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

No. The fact that Russia supports one side cannot be canceled just because it was not said directly. Yes, Russia did not give an official statement that it supports Georgia in this war, but it should be included on the side of Georgia because State Council of the Republic of Georgia received weapons exactly from Russia (Russian government) and fought with these weapons in Abkhazia throughout the whole war.

The source that I added will be included simply to make it clear that Russia is giving weapons to Georgia. Bigboomsoil (talk) 21:50, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Once again, that fact does not indicates in any way that Russia supported Georgia. Weapons and armament were left on Georgian territory after dissolution of Soviet Union and they were naturally transferred to Georgia as a part of division of Soviet military assets. This does not indicates that Russia supported Georgia in the war. First of all, the process of transferring weapons started before the war in Abkhazia, so it does not have to do anything with that war. Moreover, In September 1992 Russian parliament passed resolution which supported Abkhazia in the war and ordered stopping transferring weapons to Georgia (Russian parliament did that to support Abkhazia, this indicates Russia's support for Abkhazia, not Georgia).

All post-Soviet states got weapons that Soviet Union left on their territory after dissolution of Soviet Union. This does not have to do anything with Russia supporting those states. One can also claim that Russia supported Baltics or something like that, which is absurd.Silveresc (talk) 22:38, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

What you have stated is just not true. The fact that Russia transferred weapons to Georgia after the dissolution of USSR is undisputed. As an example: The article's date that I have added, which says "Russia leaves its weapons in Georgia. The transfer of weapons is controlled by the Georgian parliament" is 5th December of 1992.

Another example of that are words of Georgian Guram Odisharia who was eyewitness to these events. In the movie of Georgian producers "Absence of Will" about the war in Abkhazia, he says on 18:43 that "The Russian government gave us a whole tank division". Bigboomsoil (talk) 23:14, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Another example of that are words of Georgian Guram Odisharia who was eyewitness to these events. In the movie of Georgian producers "Absence of Will" about the war in Abkhazia, he says on 18:43 that "The Russian government gave us a whole tank division". Bigboomsoil (talk) 23:14, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

I am not disputing that Russia transferred weapons to Georgia after the dissolution of USSR. But that does not indicates that Russia supported Georgia in the war in Abkhazia. First of all, the process of transferring weapons to Georgia started way before the war in Abkhazia. We are talking about military assets of former Soviet Army, which were located on Georgian territory during USSR and were left there after the dissolution of USSR under the control of former Soviet (Russian) military commanders. Georgia claimed that those military assets rightfully belonged to it, but Russia (Transcaucasian Military District) also claimed their ownership. On 17 November 1991, President of newly independent Georgia issued a decree, proclaiming Georgia's ownership of all former Soviet military assets on Georgian territory and instructing Georgian government to start negotiation with Soviet military units and Ministry of Internal Affairs to ensure the transfer of arms under Georgian control. This was 10 months before war in Abkhazia. After this, bilateral treaties were signed between Georgia and Russia (heir of USSR) about transfer of arms. For example, before creation of CIS in May 1992, 70 T-72 tanks and 20 attack helicopters were transferred by Transcaucasian Military District to Georgian government. This was 3 months before war in Abkhazia. That's natural since the former Soviet military assets on Georgian territory now belonged to Georgia. These transfers does not have to do anything with war in Abkhazia, they were agreed in bilateral treaties signed before war in Abkhazia. During the war in Abkhazia, the enforcement of these treaties naturally continued. But in September 1992, Russian parliament tried to obstruct this process precisely to support Abkhazia in the war by blocking the previously agreed transfer of weapons. The process of transfering weapons still continued anyway, but this indicates well that Russia supported Abkhazia in this war. The former Soviet military assets in other post-Soviet republics were also transferred to newly founded post-Soviet republics there, that's how their armies were created, there is nothing unusual here.Silveresc (talk) 14:48, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

I understand you. I know that there were military assets of the former Soviet Army, which were located on Georgian territory during USSR and were left there after the dissolution of USSR under the control of former Soviet (Russian) military commanders, which was long before the war in Abkhazia . I know what president of newly independent Georgia did on 17 November 1991 and that it was 10 months before the war in Abkhazia. But I wouldn’t start this discussion if I relied only on this. I do not touch upon the topic of weapons given by Russia (or the USSR) until August 14, 1992. The fact that Russia transferred weapons to Georgia (Georgian military forces) after the start of the Georgian-Abkhaz war is already clear. The main issue is that there is a misunderstanding of what support means (in any of its senses) or what it means to put some state on someone’s side, as for in our example in a Wikipedia article. If you put Russia on the side of Abkhazia only because it condemned the actions of Georgia and stopped supplying it with weapons (thus precisely showing support for Abkhazia), then you have the right to do so, but then you also have absolutely every right to put Russia on the side of Georgia because of the fact that Rus. gave Geo. weapons after the start of the war and the Georgian formations fought using these weapons. This is how it works. You gave the weapons to one and the one fights with these weapons throughout the war. Therefore, it is not fair to put Russia only on the side of Abkhazia. Bigboomsoil (talk) 18:53, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Gergian troops took control over the city of Garga Abkhazians left the city 95.153.160.247 (talk) 03:35, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Ankhaz formations, together with confederants, crossed the Gumista River,but Georgian troops pushed them back. 95.153.160.247 (talk) 03:38, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Sources missing

Fodrid, what are the sources for the numbers of North Caucasian fighters that you've added to the article? Alaexis_¿question? 12:09, 19 November 2023 (UTC)