Talk:Walter Passmore

Recordings

Of course it is of interest to anyone who is reading an entry on Passmore, a singer, to be able to listen to his voice. We have recordings of him performing which are now in the public domain. It is clear that they should be included. They are some of THE most relevant documentary content on any singer. Furthermore, nobody owns this page, and WP:BRD explicitly says that it is no reason to revert good-faith improvements to an article. I fail to see how not including an available historical recording is the result of common sense (as it is not specified by any WP guideline or policy). See also Wikipedia:Don't revert due solely to "no consensus". D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 13:17, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

"Of course" "it is clear" "the result of common sense" "fail to see". See WP:CIVIL. Perhaps you would like to start again and explain, step-by-step, your reasoning regarding each change you made considering WP:DUE, so that we can all discuss them. Your calm explanations may prevail. -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:30, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

The inclusion of recordings demonstrates how Passmore interpreted Sullivan's work; these clips are some of Passmore's only work that is directly preserved. They add to and do not detract from the other contents of the article. Compare Wikipedia:Adding images improves the encyclopedia. As for WP:DUE, the inclusion or non-inclusion of media does not connect with WP:NPOV; adding the recordings does not reference any opinion or theory about Passmore. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 15:11, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Ssilvers that incivility and squeals of "ownership!" are not the way forward. Where D Benjamin Miller has added excellent things, as in the Sullivan article, all we old-timers have had to do is to tidy them up and Wikify them. As to sound clips, I'd be happy to discuss their inclusion, and personally I'd start from a predisposition in favour, though they'd have to be placed carefully within the article.

While I'm here, I have altered the details of WP's appearance in Beecham's production of Die Fledermaus: I have a horrid suspicion that it was I who was guilty of adding the earlier info, which was not quite right. Now amended. I've also replaced some dead links in the citations with solid ones to Who's Who in the Theatre. Tim riley talk 16:03, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

So, D. Benjamin Miller, please propose each sound clip one at a time, so we can discuss the relative merits and value to the article of each. Please explain where in the article you propose to add each, the recording quality of each, and how each purports to illustrate Passmore's vocal style accurately and helpfully to the reader of his Wikipedia article. Thanks! -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:35, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Recordings to add

The following are recordings of Passmore:

These are both examples of Passmore's performances of Sullivan's music (here he sings two of his starring roles, Bunthorne in Patience and J. W. Wells in The Sorcerer). They can be added anywhere in the article: perhaps either at the top or under "Recordings". They are relevant because they are directly illustrative of Passmore's career as a recording artist (as distributed on discs during his lifetime) and an interpreter of Sullivan. Their inclusion is similar to the addition of images showing Passmore in various roles. The recording quality is as high as can be expected, considering the time at which these recordings were made (1900), and they are among the better-quality recordings available from Passmore's era (i.e., they are among the best quality audio clips that could be found to represent Passmore's singing). They are not obtrusive and do not detract from the rest of the article. They are also free media (since they are now public domain in the United States, as well as Britain). If there is a substantive reason you think they should not be included here, please include it below. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 01:18, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

I'd vote for including both. Unlike the frightful Mikado clip the same editor inflicted on that article recently they are at or about the right pitch (I have compared them with the Pearl transfer in my collection, which is not exactly gospel so far as speed/pitch is concerned, but is there or thereabouts and got the nod from specialist reviewers when it came out). The obvious place for them is alongside the recordings section, where they would sit well and not make a dog's breakfast of the page layout as they did when added before. There exists a goodish quality recording of WP singing No 5a from The Mikado, which strikes me as better qua recording than these two, and if any technically competent editor (which excludes me) cares to bring that forward here I think it would be welcome. Tim riley talk 08:43, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Tim, the Mikado recording had a metadata error (it is a 48k transfer, but it was set in metadata as if it were 44.1k, leading it to be be played too slowly). That's now been corrected. As for Passmore's Mikado, I would be happy for that recording to be here, except for the fact that I don't have a digitized copy of it, at least not yet. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 09:27, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Update — I now see I do have a digitization of Passmore's recording of The Mikado. I have uploaded this at File:The Mikado (1908).mp3. That would actually be an interesting addition somewhere as it is the first complete recording of that opera. A clip could be cut from it as appropriate. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 09:59, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

I would have no objection to including up to two audio file links that both Miller and Riley agree on (if a third better one is found, I think it should replace one of the others: we don't want a long list of such links. I would urge that they be inserted so as to be as small and unobtrusive as possible. -- Ssilvers (talk) 13:45, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Good point. I'd go for the Sorcerer and Mikado clips and omit the rather wobbly Patience one. Tim riley talk 14:10, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

D. Benjamin Miller (may I call you D. Benjamin?) – the Mikado track is first rate. Many thanks: it illustrates the article splendidly. Tim riley talk 22:17, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Tim, thanks. I am working on archiving every public domain and freely-licensed recording of Sullivan's work (as I can). The few that are public domain in the United States can be posted here. I have added many more at IMSLP as well, and some of those will be public domain in a few years in the US (e.g., an Iolanthe recording in 2024). Unfortunately, ultimately almost all the recordings made after 1923 which are on this site will probably have to be removed due to the CLASSICS Act — see commons:Template:PD-US-record. I am working to make available what I can. I also am trying to find more public domain images to replace any fair use ones (which are necessarily limited in scope per WP policy), e.g., the images of Malcolm Sargent I added recently. Hopefully I will track down more examples illustrative soon. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 22:25, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

If you can provide an upload on the page of Passmore's successor C. H. Workman of the latter's recording of the Nightmare Song from Iolanthe, I for one will be very pleased. I have played my 1970s LP transfer of it many times over the years and I think it top notch. Tim riley talk 22:35, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Tim riley, I believe I have a copy of that recording. I will add it later. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 22:59, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Photo as Sergeant of Police

I have restored the originally loaded photo from the Illustrated Sporting and Dramatic News, which is a better scan and the right size. The alternative one is blacker, but slightly at an angle, needlessly wide, and has the contrast exaggerated so as to obscure the expression on Passmore's face. Tim riley talk 08:25, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree that the image from the Illustrated S and D News looks better, especially around the face. -- Ssilvers (talk) 13:41, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Offenbach title

Still tinkering with the text, I am in some doubt as to the title of the Offenbach piece in which WP played General Boom (Boum in the French, but not here) at the Savoy in 1897–98. At the moment we say it was called The Grand Duchess of Gerolstein which is what Rollins and Witts and Tony Joseph call it, but I don't think that's right. Of course the original was undoubtedly La Grande-Duchesse de Gérolstein and in advance of his new English version Carte advertised it as The Grand Duchess of Gerolstein, but by the time it opened (4 December 1897) and during the run, it was listed in most, but not all, classified theatre ads as just The Grand Duchess, and so appears on Dudley Hardy's poster for the production, which can be seen here. I don't think it would be helpful to write The Grand Duchess [of Gerolstein], and the question seems to me to be do we stick with the five-word title or go for the three-word one? Thoughts, please. – Tim riley talk 14:05, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

In passing, if anyone seeing this is interested in the Offenbach piece I have a query open on that article's talk page. Comments gladly received. – Tim riley talk 14:19, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

I would be inclined to stick with the 5-word title and drop a footnote. But, if you go the other way, also drop a footnote, saying what you say above. We could then also add the footnote to the D'Oyly Carte article, and probably to most of the other 33 WP articles that mention both The Grand Duchess and D'Oyly Carte. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:32, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Good idea, and now done − for this article at any rate. I've stuck to The Times for my citations, but there are any number of others in the press archives if wanted. I'll put the massed ranks of the other articles on my to-do list. 33, forsooth! Tim riley talk 20:04, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

I've done the first 4, so only 29 to go! -- Ssilvers (talk) 02:01, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

1907 vs. 1908

According to Marc Shepherd, while the full set was not issued until 1908 (relevant for copyright reasons), all of that Mikado recording was done in the fall of 1907. (Also, I believe some of the sides were even issued in 1907, although I don't know about this one specifically.) So I think we should label by year of recording, Tim riley, since we do know it with certainty (as I understand). D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 20:45, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

In or on?

Tim, the article says: "In a historic 1908 recording of The Mikado for Odeon that was reissued by Pearl ...." In the US we would say "on" ("He sang on an album, but he sang in a TV show"). Is it "in" in the UK? -- Ssilvers (talk) 00:11, 2 February 2022 (UTC)