Talk:W. B. Yeats/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about W. B. Yeats. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Initial text

The page currently says - His poem, "The Second Coming" is one of the most potent sources of imagery about the 20th century. Which strikes me as (a) highly questionable and (b) vacuous. Any suggestions for improvement? Harry R

Doesn't seem too questionable to me, but it's a little incomplete. My suggestion is to combine this info with the actual page on The Second Coming (poem) and then simply link there from here. --

Seems contentious to me too, reading too much into a singular poem rather than the whole of Yeats's works. Furthermore I'm not sure Yeats is politically motivated in this poem. Never heard of Yeats being anti-democratic. Mandel - May 11, 2004

Yeats is well-known for being anti-democratic. His cultural models were almost entirely aristocratic--this is why, to use the most obvious example I can think of, Yeats makes so much use of Lady Gregory and her background in his poetry. Perhaps the most violent anti-democratic writing by Yeats is his On the Boiler, in which he derides the spread of literacy and other modern (mostly industrial) developments. His father said in a letter--and I know it because it was quoted by Ezra Pound, who put together an edition of JBY's letters--that "Democracy devours its poets and artists"; the younger Yeats--and Ezra Pound, perhaps with more nuance--would have agreed. You can look at almost any critical book on Yeats and get this information (not the least, Bloom's Yeats). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bartrambartram444 (talk • contribs) 02:56, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

The Ezra Pound entry in Wikipedia says that Yeats was never influenced by Ezra Pound, yet this article contradicts that.

The Ezra Pound page is wrong. Bmills 07:38, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I have started what I hope will be a major rewrite of this article. Here's the text as I found it, minus the images:

William Butler Yeats (June 13, 1865 – January 28, 1939), often referred to as W.B. Yeats, was an Irish poet, dramatist and mystic. He served as an Irish Senator in the 1920s.

Born in Dublin, in 1865, the firstborn of John Butler Yeats and Susan Mary Yeats. In 1877, W.B. entered Godolphin school, which he attended for four years, after which he continued his education at Erasmus Smith High School, in Dublin. For a time (from 1884 – 1886), he attended the Metropolitan School of Art.

In 1885, Yeats's first poems were published in the Dublin University Review.

In 1889, Yeats met Maud Gonne, a young heiress who was beginning to devote herself to the Irish nationalist movement. Gonne admired Yeats's early poem The Isle of Statues and sought out his acquaintance. Yeats developed an obsessive infatuation with Gonne, and she was to have a significant effect on his poetry and his life ever after. Two years after, he proposed to Gonne, but was rejected. In 1896, he was introduced to Lady Gregory by their mutual friend Edward Martyn and began an affair with Olivia Shakespeare, which ended one year later. Lady Gregory encouraged Yeats's nationalism and convinced him to continue focusing on writing drama. In 1899, Yeats again proposed to Gonne, and was again rejected. He proposed again in 1900, and again in 1901; in 1903, Maud Gonne married Irish nationalist John MacBride, and Yeats visited America on a lecture tour.

Yeats spent the summer of 1917 with Maud Gonne, and proposed to Gonne's daughter, but was rejected. In September, he proposed to George Hyde-Lees, was accepted, and the two were married on the 20th of October.

He was highly interested in mysticism and spiritualism, and attended his first séance in 1886. Later, Yeats became heavily involved with hermeticist and theosophical beliefs, and in 1900 he became head of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, which he had joined in 1890. That same year, maintaining his interest in the literary arts, Yeats cofounded the Rhymer's Club with John Rhys.

All his life, Yeats maintained friendships with a number of poets and literary figures; for a time in 1913, Ezra Pound served as Yeats's secretary. Yeats was also known and respected by Oscar Wilde, John Millington Synge, T. S. Eliot, and Virginia Woolf, among others.

Yeats was awarded the Nobel Prize for literature in 1923.

Yeats, after suffering from a variety of illnesses for a number of years, died in France in January, 1939, eight months before the German invasion of Poland. Soon afterward, Anglo-American poet W. H. Auden composed the poem In Memory of W. B. Yeats. The well known opening lines of the final section of this poem read simply: "Earth receive an honored guest: / William Yeats is laid to rest.". Yeats was first buried at Roquebrune, until his body was moved to Drumecliff, Sligo in September, 1948. His grave is a famous attraction in Sligo. The stone reads a line from one of his poems: "Cast a cold eye on life, on death, horsemen pass by". Of this location, Yeats said, "the place that has really influenced my life most is Sligo." The town is also home to a statue and memorial building in Yeats's honour.

Gothenburg Prize?

[citation needed]

The article references that in "1934 he shared the Gothenburg Prize for Poetry with Rudyard Kipling". I have never heard of this prize, and googling turns up nothing but this and the Kippling article. Both articles had the reference added by the same anon on November 18, 2004. If nobody responds to this who has heard of this prize, I am going to remove the reference.

Hobx 12:19, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Removed it. Hobx 08:33, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Jack Butler Yeats

Does anyone know if William Butler Yeats is related to Jack Butler Yeats? If not, is Butler Yeats a fairly common name in Ireland or what? Just curious. :) Jobjörn (Talk | contribs) 11:47, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey, they were brothers. How about that? Hey, it even says so in the introduction. Kill me, I'm stupid. Jobjörn (Talk | contribs) 11:49, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Citations

The lack of citations in this article is surprising. Anyone willing to work on them? And why is this a featured article for another language? And whats with improving it with Chinese? Zos 21:50, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I presume it means the Yeats article in the Mandarin Wikipedia was a featured article at some point. Given that, there may be some useful information to be gleaned from that article (by some bilingual editor, of course) to improve this one. —johndburger 01:46, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Cultural depictions of William Butler Yeats

I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 16:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Anglo-Saxon Protestant?

I've never heard this phrase before, Why not use born to Anglo-Irish parents. This covers it in a less awkward way as well as it being a commonly used term. Whoever keeps changing it back should take a look at the link. They may not be Irish and therefore may not have heard of this term before. This also covers the fact that he was a member of the Upper Class. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.41.74.148 (talk) 21:36, 8 January 2007 (UTC).

Anglo-Saxon Protestant is hardly an unusual phrase, at in least in the US, see WASP. —johndburger 01:29, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes but we're talking in the context of W.B Yeats here and this phrase is not used in Ireland. Yeats' parents were not Anglo-Saxon, They were Anglo-Irish ie. they were born in Ireland to a family of the Aristocracy.

I'd see the Protestantism as the more important element, affecting his view on divorce in the Senate and enabling him to identify with Swift and Burke, as well as Wolfe Tone and Edward Fitzgerald, even if he was hardly a Christian. I'm not sure that he was Anglo-Irish as it tends to be used in current usage -- Yeats saw himself as Irish, as did his parents. He may have liked to think he was of aristocratic extraction (with Butler from the Dukes of Ormonde) but that is more snobbery than actual fact. I'd go for "Protestant", or "Church of Ireland" even, however I realise that these terms probably mean even less to US readers. Nmmad 15:06, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Deletion of popular references section

This section is a bit of a mess, but I think simply deleting it with no reason given, or any discussion, is inappropriate. I'd be perfectly happy with moving it to its own page, as suggested above. —johndburger 02:11, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

The fact that it was a mess was reason enough for deletion. If people want to keep such lists, the least they could do is format them properly. Anyhow, I spun it out. Ceoil 21:51, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Title

Yeats is not like T. S. Eliot or W. H. Auden or whoever, who are always known by initials. He is sometimes called by initials, and sometimes by his full name, and I'd say the full name is rather more broadly familiar. As the original move was made with no discussion, I've moved it back. john k 04:23, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeats disliked his given name and almost never used it. --75.179.42.252 08:33, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Lack of sources

Good day have removed a small part in which it was implied that he had some simpathies to nazism for no source is mentioned.Think there is a bit of slant or a deliberate ideological discourse in there .

A Byrne —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.131.37.18 (talk) 03:03, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

List of works

I went ahead and replaced the complete bibliography with a link to List of works by William Butler Yeats and a list of significant works, as judged by their mention in the article. I don't know an awful lot about Yeats, so please revise the selected works as appropriate. Avram (talk) 23:08, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Same Quote Appears Twice - PLEASE CORRECT

Auden's quote about "mumob-jumbo from Indea &c." appears twice - in "Young Poet" as well as "Style." Because I did not collaborate on this article, I am not going to decide where the quote belongs; however it certainly does not belong twice. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.21.123.155 (talk) 08:14, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Well spotted; fixed now. Ceoil (talk) 14:50, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Reference

"when he duly asked Maud to marry him, and was duly refused, his thoughts shifted with surprising speed to her daughter". Do we have a reference for this Foster quote, please? Massimo57 (talk) 22:24, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Poetry

Yeats's early poetry drew heavily on Irish myth and folklore; however his later work was engaged with more contemporary issues. His style also underwent a dramatic transformation. Yeats' work can be divided into three general periods. His earliest work is lushly pre-Raphaelite in tone, self-consciously ornate, and at times, according to unsympathetic critics, stilted. Yeats began by writing epic poems: The Isle of Statues and The Wanderings of Oisin. After Oisin, he never attempted another long poem. His other early poems are lyrics on the themes of love or mystical and esoteric subjects. Yeats' middle period saw him abandon the pre-Raphaelite character of his early wrk and attempt to turn himself into a Landor-style social ironist. Critics who admire his middle work might characterize it as supple and muscular in its rhythms and sometimes harshly modernist, while others find these poems barren and weak in imaginative power. Yeats' later work found new imaginative inspiration in the mystical system he began to work out for himself under the influence of spiritualism. In many ways, this poetry is a return to the vision of his earlier work. The opposition between the worldly-minded man of the sword and the spiritually-minded man of God, the theme of The Wanderings of Oisin, is reproduced in A Dialogue Between Self and Soul.

Some critics claim that Yeats spanned the transition from the nineteenth century into twentieth-century modernism in poetry much as Pablo Picasso did in painting. Others question whether late Yeats really has much in common with modernists of the Ezra Pound and T. S. Eliot variety. Modernists read the well-known poem The Second Coming as a dirge for the decline of European civilization in the mode of Eliot, but later critics have pointed out that this poem is an expression of Yeats' apocalyptic mystical theories, and thus the expression of a mind shaped by the 1890s.

Yeats is generally conceded to be one of twentieth century's key English-language poets. Yet, unlike most modernists who experimented with vers libre, Yeats was a master of the traditional verse forms. His most important collections of poetry started with The Green Helmet (1910) and Responsibilities (1914). In imagery, Yeats's poetry became sparer, more powerful as he grew older. The Tower (1928), The Winding Stairs (1929) and New Poems (1938) contained some of the most potent images in twentieth-century poetry; his Last Poems are also conceded to be amongst his best.

Yeats's mystical inclinations, informed by Hindu Theosophical beliefs and the occult, formed much of the basis of his late poetry, which some critics have attacked as lacking in intellectual credibility. W. H. Auden criticizes his late stage as the "deplorable spectacle of a grown man occupied with the mumbo-jumbo of magic and the nonsense of India". The metaphysics of Yeats's late works must be read, for better or for worse, in relation to Yeats's system of esoteric fundamentalities in A Vision (1925), which is read today primarily for its value shed on his late poetry rather than for any rigorous intellectual or philosophical insights.

His poem, "The Second Coming" is one of the most potent sources of imagery about the 20th century. For instance,

Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;

Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,

The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere

The ceremony of innocence is drowned;

The best lack all conviction, while the worst

Are full of passionate intensity.

For the anti-democratic Yeats, 'the best' referred to the traditional ruling classes of Europe, who were unable to protect the traditional culture of Europe from materialistic mass movements. For later readers, 'the best' and 'the worst' have been redefined to fit their own political views.

Also, the concluding lines

And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,

Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

This refers to Yeats' belief that history was cyclic, and that his age represented the end of the cycle that began with the rise of Christianity.

PD image

This photo of Yeats by George Charles Beresford is now in the public domain.[1] Ty 07:59, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I just added. Ceoil (talk) 20:15, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Jervis Yeats

The article says that Jervis Yeats died in 1922, which has to be incorrect. A quick Google search indicates that Jervis Yeats died in 1712, which seems feasible, but since I'm not entirely sure if 1712 is accurate, I don't want to edit the article. Hopefully someone else out there can confirm the year of Jervis Yeats' death edit the article accordingly! -142.36.165.87

I changed the date with a reference giving the correct date. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:10, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Unreferenced "Style" section

I added the unreferenced section tag to the "Style" section of this article; it was removed with the addition of only one citation and a slight change of wording. The section is nearly 900 words and there are only 7 citations, three of them referencing Yeats's work itself and not the claims made about his style. Specifically,

"Yeats is generally considered to be one of the twentieth century's key English-language poets."
"His use of symbols[65] is usually something physical which is used both to be itself and to suggest other, perhaps immaterial, timeless qualities." (The fact that he uses symbols is referenced, but the rest of the sentence is not. Possibly this footnote is merely misplaced.)
The entire second paragraph only references the quote from Yeats's poetry and none of the criticism about them. The last four paragraphs have one critical citation (the other two again only source the work of Yeats himself).

I've replaced the tag. -Sketchmoose (talk) 19:22, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I will work on this with you if you feel so strong. Ceoil (talk) 19:29, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

It's not a question of feeling strongly; there just simply aren't enough references, and saying "it's fine" or that the tag can be removed because I didn't add any references myself doesn't change this. I'll gladly help if I can, but the burden isn't on me (which isn't to say it's on you either). Thanks. -Sketchmoose (talk) 13:07, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I've added two references to the section. I have references for all of the other lines. If there are any more lines in particular that you feel need references, please list them. I've stated the same thing on Ceoil's talk page. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:11, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
I've updated with more references. Anything else that needs to be referenced? Ottava Rima (talk) 18:36, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

To me it seems ok now. Good work Rima. Ceoil (talk) 00:24, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Writer's Box

I added a Writer's Box so the article would look more 'Wikipedian'. Somewhat concerned about the notable works though, I added the poems which I think are the first ones that come to mind when mentioning Yeats, but feel free to correct. :) Also, add some people he influenced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.83.226.81 (talk) 16:16, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

   18:00, 3 April 2009  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.83.226.81 (talk)

nonsense

This article has a fine modernist POV bias, doesn't it? Oh, of course, early Yeats is too fluffy and ornate, isn't it? And the more modernist Yeats is tight and powerful and any other good thing the biased writers could come up with to praise it. BS. The older Yeats is the better. Beautiful verse is better than spare, barren, 20th century crap. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.163.106.71 (talk) 14:22, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Religion

We need to decide whether Yeats' religion was important enough to discuss in the article. If we are to talk about it, it should be verifiable from reliable sources. I just took an Anglican category out as I believe it was not justified on the strength of some unreferenced mentions of Protestantism in the article. Other opinions? --John (talk) 21:35, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Sources (That I have sitting around):

1. p. 3 "The Church of Ireland (Anglican and established until 1869) was a family affair, for William's own father had been Rector in Drumcliffe parish in County Sligo"

2. p. 196 "Yeats was proud of his family's long tradition as members of the Anglo-Irish gentry and of the Church of Ireland"

3. p. 221 and p. 223 show that the Church still recognized him as one of theirs later in his life.

4. p. 42 Discusses the mix of Christianity and Mysticism in Yeats's beliefs. The back cover even calls him a "Christian" and an "Occultist".

5. p. 515 "He lectured on 'magic and mysticism' and declared his commitment to 'Christian mysticism'."

And so forth. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:15, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Nice work. We could have a section on Yeats' religion, it looks like! --John (talk) 17:55, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

You might want to have it more on his occultism. He was heavy into seances and the such. There are many of his plays that deal with the matter. His understanding of time, the soul, and immortality are likewise interesting. It would probably be best to come up with a separate page first and then summarize that page in a section. William Butler Yeats's occultism? Something along that line. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:59, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

His interest in the occult would be an interesting (and long) article of itself! Ceoil (talk) 21:34, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Last journey

This article states that Yeats' remains were brought home by the corvette LÉ Macha (01). Cited is Foster. This is disputed by the following edit on the vessel's article (misplaced at the bottom of the page):[2]

The book "A History of the Irish Naval Service" by Aidan McIvor corrects the mistake in that it was not the Macha, but the The LE Cliona under the command of Commander Thomas McKenna (Later to become Overall Commander of the Irish Naval Service)that returned the remains of WB Yeats.
Le Cliona left Haulbowline Naval Base in June 1948, calling at Gibralter on the outward and return leg, and collected the remains of in Nice.
The vessel returned to Sligo Bay after a journey of 17 days.

A similar edit was made to LÉ Cliona (03):[3] The editor appears to be no longer active.

The biography of Yeats may be less reliable on this matter than the McIvor book. Does anyone have access to A History of the Irish Naval Service? Its ISBN is 9780716534181. No preview is avaiable on Google books. Kablammo (talk) 22:18, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Most of the books I had at the time I worked on this were borrowed. Well, I have Foster yet, but thats the problem. I dig around and see what I can find, would appreciate if you did the same. Thanks for spotting this. Ceoil (talk) 22:27, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

I'd imagine A History of the Irish Naval Service would be available at my local city libary, I can get it but dont have a spare saturday to call for about two weeks. Ceoil (talk) 22:29, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. I can find only one library with it on this side of the water and it is over 2000km away. Kablammo (talk) 22:37, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Though breaks! Which library? Ceoil (talk) 22:39, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Something called Alibris, in Emeryville California. It appears to be a seller of used books.

The co-author of the McIvor book is John E. Moore, who likely is Captain John E. Moore RN, editor of Jane's Fighting Ships, so the source is likely to be generally reliable. Kablammo (talk) 22:50, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, to your 2000 miles, add another 3000 from me. So how do you think we should approach this; put in a qualifier as a foot note? Ceoil (talk) 22:59, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

(EC) I found a "snippet view" here: [4], but as you see, it is cut off just before the vessel's name. At least it confirms that the return of his body by the Service is covered in the book. If we cannot confirm the name of the vessel, simply state that his remains were brought back by a vessel of the Irish Naval Service. Kablammo (talk) 23:33, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Do it. Ceoil (talk) 23:50, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Macha - page 155 The Irish Navy by Tom MacGinty ClemMcGann (talk) 01:11, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Captain: Lt Cdr Thompson & Cdr McKenna was first officer. They were well received at Gibraltar and in France. The remains were received at Rocque Brun near Memtone near Nice by Sean Murphy Irish Ambassador to France. There was a funeral march from Nice to the ship with band, trumpeters and military honours from a company of French alpine troops. It was the first time that France rendered military honours to a civilian. Voyage lasted 17 days. It started in Dun Laoghaire 0800 25 Aug ; Gibraltar berth 42 at 0900 30 Aug - this berth beside the flag tower was a position of honour. Rear Admiral Brooking took the salute in person. Cocktail party hosted by the Air Officer commanding and lunch at the Mount hosted by the Admiral. dinner hosted by the Govenor and Lady Anderson. respects from the American consul and the 6th division USN.

hope this helps - do you need any more? ClemMcGann (talk) 01:31, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

McIvor in his History of the Irish Naval Service says it was the Cliona - not the Macha - however, at the risk of OR, I have been advised that McIvor is in error. ClemMcGann (talk) 12:26, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Clem, thank you for your efforts here. I searched the New York Times archive for "Macha" and it yielded this result:

Yeats' Body Leaves Nice
Special to THE NEW YORK TIMES.
September 7, 1948, Tuesday
Page 10, 73 words[5]

Unfortunately the article itself is behind subscription.

Here is a 1948 article from the Irish Times on his burial; the (recent) introductory note to it also gives Macha: [6].

As we now have two reliable book sources indicating it was Macha, indications that a contemporaneous third source (NYT) says the same, the Irish Times piece, and the "OR" that the contrary source is in error provided by a Wikipedia editor well-placed to know, I believe the article should remain as it now is.

Ceoil, the information ClemMcGann has given above may be interesting as it shows the singular honours still given to Yeats some years after his death, but may be more detail than you want in this article. Do what you wish with it. I will however add it to the page on the vessel itself, which is now linked from this article.

Thanks to all on clearing up this point— a minor one, to be sure, but made more important by the FA status of this piece. Kablammo (talk) 13:11, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Kablammo, I dont think it would be best served in the article body, but have no objection to placing it as a footnote. Thank you both for looking into this. Ceoil (talk) 14:54, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Maud Gonne's age

The article has her as a 22 y/o heiress in 1886. Her article has her born in 1866. She's also described as younger than Yeats, who was born in 1865, and thus either 20 or 21 in 1886. What's going on here? 75.183.8.246 04:13, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

"A Woman Young and Old" is not one poem but a series, probably related to another series "A Man Young and Old". Yeats had had many relationships with women by 1929 and had also been married for 11 years. How can you prove these poems were written about Maud Gonne, who was a grandmother in her late 50s by then and heavily involved in politics, which Yeats disapproved of? How could he write this about her in 1929, yet ten years before he described her as "an old bellows full of angry wind" (from "A Prayer for my Daughter"). How can you tell it is not about his wife, Iseult Gonne or Olivia Shakespeare, for example? What is the source that says it is Maud Gonne? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.23.11.123 (talk) 11:40, 10 February 2010 (UTC)