Talk:Voydan Popgeorgiev – Chernodrinski

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Untitled

Vojdan ^ernodrinski

Vojdan pop Georgiev e roden vo s.Selci vo 1875 godina kako edno od pove}eto deca na selskiot kmet, na podocne`niot sve{tenik Georgi Slavkovkovski. Negoviot tatko rano ja zabele`al qubovta kon knigata na maliot Vojdan pa zatoa se obiduva da mu ovozmo`i {to pokvalitetno {koluvawe.Pod nasilni~ki okolnosti toj zaedno so svoeto semejstvo moral da go napu{ti svoeto selo i da zamine za Ohrid kade go prodol`il svoeto obrazovanie.Potoa se zapi{al vo Solunskata gimnazija, no vo ovoj ubav grad ne se zadr`al dolgo.Tatko mu zaminal vo Sofija i go povikal sinasi da go prodol`i obrazovanieto tamu.Tuka u~el no i aktivno u~evstval i vo Mladata makedonska dru`ina.Spored najnovite arhivski dokumenti, Vojdan go dooformil srednoto obrazovanie vo Srbija! Pravnite nauki gi zapo~nal vo Grac,a gi prodol`il vo Bern,no studiite ne gi zavr{il.So cel da se povrze {to pocvrsto do Makedonija toj tamu pobaral u~itelsko mesto, i bil nazna~en za u~itel vo s.Mogila Bitolsko.U~itelstvuvaweto ne traelo dolgo,potoa pak se vra}a vo Sofija kade {to po dolgi problemi uspeal da ja postavi na scena svojata prva drama-Makedonska Krvava Svadba na 7 noemvri 1900.

Tuka ja oformuva svojata dramska trupa Skrb i uteha a podocna i do promena vo "Stoli~en makedonski Teatar".Aktivno sprotivstavuvaj}i se na site onie koi se obiduvale da go spre~at vo izvedbata toj se opredelil za literaturna a ne voena dejnost, potiknuvaj}i gi site onie koi se obiduvale da go stavat makedonskiot zbor na scena.Po dolga borba toj sepak se izboril za povtorno da se stavi na repertoarot i Makedonska krvava svadba koj bil izvedena duri i vo Kosinec -Kostursko.

Nekolku godini podocna e mobiliziran vo Balkanskite vojni a podocna i vo prvata svetska vojna.Svedok na raspar~uvaweto na svojata zemja toj se povlekuva vo Sofija i ostanuva tamu se do krajot na svojot `ivot do 1951.

Negoviot kni`even opus e mo{ne {irok pokraj impozantnoto delo Makedonska Krvava Svadba toj gi napi{al i dramskite tekstovi:Zlo za Zlo,Drvarite, Majstorite,Meanata,Slav Dragota, Na nova godina, Sre{ta i dr.

В Р.Македония, пиесата се радва и на голям издателски интерес – преиздавана е през 1969, 1974, 1975, 1992. Всички тези издания не само успоредяват “македонския говор”, на който Чернодрински е написал текста, със съществуващата езикова норма в Р.Македония, но и внасят редица изменения, които практически променят националната идентификация на персонажите. Още в списъка на действащите лица са внесени изменения, например: Кърста, Петкана – потурчени българки (в редакциите 1900, 1907, 1928); Кърста, Петкана – потурчени рисjанки (в редакциите след смъртта на автора). Всъщност промени са направени в целия текст, навсякъде, където авторът е определял националната принадлежност на персонажите – например ремарките: другите българи уплашени; всичките българи пищят; българите се впущат към турците са заменени със сите изплашени, освен турците; сите пиштат; македонците се нафрлуваат на турците. Във всички реплики, където се среща българска самоидентификация на персонажите, също са внесени изменения или съкращения. Jingby (talk) 13:27, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No you just try to change and claim but that is not true — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.29.230.171 (talk) 00:04, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dialect is not the same as language

To anyone who wants to put a certain POV notion on the description of the image, should know (especially if he is specializing in philology) that the word dialect (or in South Slavic also "говор") is not equal to the word language (or in South Slavic "език/jазик"). If he has any problem with this I suggest him trying a dictionary or asking a fellow philologist with more knowledge on the subject. If he fails to do so, reverting is to be considered disruptive. Thank you. --Laveol ^T 12:47, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As you can see, there is written in Macedonian, without any further words. Clear enough. BTW, what is so problematic in it? Should I consider your comment as nationalistic one since you say Macedonian is dialect of other language? --MacedonianBoy (talk) 13:04, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

PLUS:If you have read the play or the cover page you will see that the play is written in Macedonian language, no need to push your own opinion here Laveol. For example, the play in named Makedonska krvava svadba not Makedonska krvava svatba. The bulgarian alphabet that is used in the original does not mean that the play is written in "dialect" or in BG. In the preface of the book, Vojdan clearly describes the Macedonians different from the Bulgarians. But this is not connected to the picture description, but additional info to you.--MacedonianBoy (talk) 13:14, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, he doesn't. Yes, at the time there were Mаcedonian dialects, not a Macedonian language (unlike nowadays). If you call a fellow editor nationalist, you're going to the ANI page again. It says "Makedonski govor" - I don't know what game you're playing. He did actually write in Bulgarian (I think we used to write svatba with "d" as well until WWII). I suggest you do a little reading, starting here. It might help you. And stop the disruption already. That was all in short. Thank you. --Laveol ^T 14:02, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You see, it was written with BG alphabet but on Macedonian. That's the difference.--MacedonianBoy (talk) 14:09, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Let me clarify some issues. The drama is written in Macedonian dialect "makedonski govor" (as it writes on the cover), while the notes in the book, written by Černodrinski himself are in literary Bulgarian language. Originally is released in Sofia in 1900, and later on translated to literary Macedonian language and transliterated with the new alphabet from 1944 (the original title is "Македонска кървава свадба"). In Bulgarian language "svatba" and "svadba" are doublets, but "svatba" is more often used. Take a look for example Google Translate: [1]. Regards! --StanProg (talk) 14:08, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think with -t- is BG. You do not have assimilation, where as Macedonian has. That is a classical example of it. We say сват but the ceremony is свадба. Regards.--MacedonianBoy (talk) 14:12, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Again, take a look at the Bulgarian books from that period:

[2] 1890
[3] 1892
[4] 1896
[5] 1901

Regards! --StanProg (talk) 14:25, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I do not know too much about the BG grammar and language, but the fact that the assimilation is not present in one of the languages is obvious. At least I provided linguistic comparison. Regards--MacedonianBoy (talk) 14:41, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And you're playing again. As a philologist you surely know that languages and rules change. And this is a case of such a change - in Bulgarian both forms were in use and later one was removed. Enough about this already. At the time Voydan lived svadba was used quite often. He wrote in Bulgarian. I hope it's all settled now. Thank you. --Laveol ^T 11:50, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Article was moved back

A user decided to move the article to the improperly spelled "Vojdan Pop Georgiev- Chernodrinski" without any preceding notification and without trying to get any consensus on this first. Any further moves should be discussed here. Otherwise such behaviour will be considered disruptive. Thank you. --Laveol ^T 11:59, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Name

There's another thing that needs solving. His name: was he born as Pop Georgiev or Popgeorgiev. Sources lean to the latter, but some insight into this might be helpful. I'll try and find something myself. --Laveol ^T 18:37, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In the past the name was "pop Georgiev", as all the "pop" family names, which in the present is written as Popgeorgiev. If you consider to move the article, just see what's more "popular" and move it. As far as I see from the sources the most popular is "Vojdan Chernodrinski". --StanProg (talk) 14:02, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, but google is no source. I tried to come with a solution counting hits, but they are heavily biased cause of all the news about the modern Macedonian play. We'll leave it like it was in the beginning. It has no diacritics or other confusion symbols. Cheers :) --Laveol ^T 18:57, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please

Please, spare us the lame edits, classifying him as an Ottoman dramatist. He was from the Slavic ethno-linguistic group self-identifying as Bulgarian, which is what he wrote in his memoirs (or sort of memoirs that is). You'd really need a good justification for such edits. Thank you. --Laveol ^T 19:54, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Spelling

Did he ever write his name as, "Војдан Поп Георгиев - Чернодрински"? Perhaps he did. If not, then I do not see why it should be included, we might as well have it in Greek since he was educated in that language and promoted by the Oecumenical Patriarchate, and in Ottoman Turkish, since he was born an Ottoman... Obviously I am not in a position to querry his 'Bulgarianess' and 'Macedonianess', just the spelling. Politis (talk) 11:54, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I've seen his grave. It says "Войдан". --Laveol ^T 12:14, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest we wait for some evidence of the Војдан Поп Георгиев - Чернодрински spelling in his life time, if not, then I think it should be removed. Politis (talk) 23:28, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

despite the fact he never wrote himself that his name is "Војдан Поп Георгиев - Чернодрински" it should still be kept since thats the correct Macedonian grammatical spelling of his name, since voydan is both celebrated in bulgaria and macedonia they purposefully spelled out his name in macedonian and in bulgarian, if you look at other people born from macedonia with bulgarian identity (macedo-bulgarians is what they are known as in the english world) you will see they are both spelled out with bulgarian names and macedonian, since they were bulgarian but also born in macedonia Gurther (talk) 17:25, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The source in this article are questionable as well as Jingby known editor of Wikipedia who pushes articles that some person was Bulgarian and pushes his own nationalistic view of history — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.29.230.171 (talk) 00:03, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]