Talk:Voras Mountains

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Text and/or other creative content from this version of Nidže was copied or moved into Voras Mountains with this edit on May 7, 2012. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

1.Sources needed in the context of Ancient Greece. Also 2.Boras and Bermion.

1.We need sources and detailed citations on the Boras and Boreas stuff and on Hellanicus.
2.Are they the same? At least in the context of Ancient Greece/Greek? Cause I've found a reference that seems to say so: see here and hence here.
Thanatos|talk|contributions 07:03, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, this one doesn't sound quite right. The "Bermius" situated "between the Haliacmon and Ludias, at the foot of which stood the city of Beroea" (i.e. Veria) is clearly still the one called Mount Vermion today (between Veria and Naoussa in the east, and Ptolemaida and Kozani in the west). The passage from Livy referred to in Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography refers to a division of Macedonia into four cantons, one of which is situated "between the Axius [i.e. the Vardar) and the Peneus), contains Pella as its capital and is bounded by the "Bora" in the north, while another is on the other side of the Bora and contains Pelagonia. That "Bora" can't possibly be the same as the Vermion; it's clearly the same "Voras" (Boras) our article is about. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:25, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not so certain about the "clearly" part; see e.g. this (searching in google books, I'm getting both positive and negative identification of ancient Boras as the modern one). In any case - I'm guessing both of us arrived at this topic coming from Anemoi or similar - I have to repeat: Boreas and Boras, Hellanicus?!?!? ;-) Thanatos|talk|contributions 04:24, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Going through this.Thanatos|talk|contributions 04:47, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing relevant found; including search in the addenda et corrigenda, vol.4. Thanatos|talk|contributions 06:34, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your work in debunking the Helladicus attribution. Back to the issue of the identification of the mountain: there are some indications that the name "Boras" was indeed not attested elsewhere in ancient sources except for the Livy text mentioned, and that modern authors were thus left to speculate which mountain Livius meant. William M. Leake, in Travels in Northern Greece, Vol III: 484, says in discussing the Livy passage: "Mount Bora, which is not noticed by any other author, appears to have been the summit northward of Vodhená [i.e. Vodena/Edessa], now called Nitje [i.e. Nidže])" [1] Other 19th-century authors may have speculated it was another mountain, such as the Vermion (although I'd still say it's rather clear from Livy's description that Leake got it right.) The modern Greek naming practice of applying the name "Boras" to the Nidže/Kaimakçalan as a matter of course may well be a rather recent (re-)naming; Leake and other 19th-century authors were apparently not aware of it yet. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:11, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

1.Had already been through the quoted source. 2.The claim that it isn't attested elsewhere is also present at the second source I had provided. Emphasis on claim. 3.The possibility of a reintroduction had also - inter alia - crossed my mind; it's still a possibility though, not certainty. 4.Not sure on whether I've indeed debunked the Hellanikos attribution; after all it's kinda hard to prove a negative... Hence I'm of the opinion that the claim must remain present along with the cn tag, at least for the time being so that we give interested editors a chance to substantiate it.
PS The Internet Archive had been malfunctioning for some hours; the problem seems to have been fixed but unfortunately Die Fragmente der Griechischen Historiker isn't listed therein. IMO someone with access to it has to at least check this newer/extended source/version-thereof (also: TLG) if we are to remove the claim.
Thanatos|talk|contributions 10:53, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Pyraechmes:: It seems that you're the one who had edited this claim in; could you please substantiate it? In any case, where did you read it? Thanatos|talk|contributions 11:20, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Frankly, having seen Pyraechmes' additions on other articles, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for sources from him. The way I see it, the prima facie indications that the claim is likely to be false are strong enough to justify removal from the articles at this point. If several knowledgeable scholars in the 19th century didn't know of any other attestations besides the one in Livy, it's unlikely they missed anything substantial – and if there was no reference to the name anywhere, then a fortiori there can't have been a documented association with the Borras/Boreas north wind name either. Probably just a common modern pseudo-etymological association based on superficial similarity. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:23, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly suspect something like that has happened in that first part of the unsourced material (i.e. VBoras being the home of Boreas; I changed my edits on this reflecting on what I suspect happened: single rho misspeling (i.e. Βοράς) of MG Βορράς ("north"), something not that uncommon (plus B to V transcription following MG phonology applied onto AG) leads to Boras; then conjectural connection to Βόρας Boras (the mountain), even if only implicitly; et voila...). The thing that troubles me though is the second part, i.e. citing Hellanikos; he and the relevant claim are way too obscure and specific to have just been made up out of thin air. It could be a misreading, a misunderstanding or ...; but at the very least it would be interesting to learn the origin and source of this claim... Thanatos|talk|contributions 20:29, 24 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

On account of the recent edits by @Pyraechmes:, I'm reversing course and attitude:
Sorry Pyraechmes, I'll be frank, but I ask for sources and for the retention of your added-in claims until you've provided the former, and you respond by adding in bullshit ones?!?!? Not not reliable sources, as FPaS characterised them, that's an unbelievably polite understatement and euphemism, but simply plain ol' bullshit, from somewhere out there in the Internet?!?!?! Sorry but if this is the best you can do, I've become of the opinion that we must promptly remove all this stuff from the article(s)... (kyrios oide how many more, how many other claims, at how many other articles?!?!) Thanatos|talk|contributions 20:09, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I added sources for Greek Mythology. It's from "Phaedrus' Myths", wellknown worldwide, but Future... insists in erasing. I can't go on like this. User:PyraechmesWe were here before you came and we will be here after you leave 20:33, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If the bullshit you had added is from ""Phaedrus Myths",wellknown worldwide", kindly add a link and/or a detailed citation "thereto"; by "thereto" I mean the original text(s) (including of course relevant passages) and/or scholarly secondary/tertiary sources on them. Till then Fut.Per. has every right to remove the bullshit you've added. In fact, the latter is a half-measure; I repeat: if this is the best you can do then the whole section has to be removed promptly from the article along with all relevant or similar claims and passages from other articles... Thanatos|talk|contributions 20:58, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note that the "Phaedrus" page [2] is citing Wikipedia as its own source (follow the link under "ΠΗΓΗ" at the bottom of the article), so it's quite obviously unreliable. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:28, 27 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Pyraechmes: For one last time, sources please! Real ones... Thanatos|talk|contributions 12:50, 27 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]