Talk:Volga Tatars

[Untitled]

Hi! I just remade the headings to look more logical, further remade sentence setup of Mişär text to make sense. If I got some facts wrong in the process, please correct me! :-)--Paracel63 (talk) 21:05, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Original research

Recent additions by 146.232.75.208, consist of questionable sources(non-neutral, unpublished, nationalistic sites) that make no direct mention of the Volga Tatars. This is original research. Until such time as these "sources" are addressed the section in question will be tagged as original research. --Kansas Bear (talk) 16:06, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

First of all they do not need to mention the Tatars, since Tatars are largely descended from Bulgars, so mentioning the Bulgars is just fine. Second, those sources are not from nationalistic sites. There is nothing wrong with the sources, so they dont need to be adressed. Clearly you have some sort of an agenda it seems, in my view, (and also judging from your involment in previous similar matters), against any information that suggests another origin other than Turkic for a particular people - that bias, it seems, is influencing your editting in an unproductive manner. All in all, this has nothing to do with original research as it is well sourced, saying so shows your dislike to anyone who proposes any other origin than Turkic for groups of people (this is clearly evident from you involvement in previous such matters). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.232.75.208 (talk) 07:45, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

First of all they(the "sources" in question) do have to mention Volga Tatars or it is original research. Removal of references and referenced information[1] is disruptive editing. Your continued removal of information that you find unpalatable is also disruptive editing. This is your only warning.

This statement by you, "..shows your dislike to anyone who proposes any other origin than Turkic..", is a battleground mentality and is not conducive to the creation of an encyclopedia. Whereas your deletion of references stating Turkic origin would make you appear to be the one with the phobia. I will notify an Admin since you can not comprehend these issues. --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:34, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

By deleting my post on your wall clearly shows (and I am sure everyone will agree) that you only strongly abide to your viewpoint and nothing else and that you are not willing to discuss the issue and to reach understanding and common ground, that to me, if anything, shows the actual battle ground mentality. And like I say again, there is even nothing hard to understand - the Bulgars ethnicity is heavily disputed and the Mari (another of the Tatars ancestors) were not Turkic, so how can you with certainty call them Turkic. I simply cannot fathom what is so very hard to understand?? I have provided clear explanations for my argument that anyone should undertstand. It is fair and NPOV to just simply right, at least for the case of the Volga Tatars, that they were Turkicspeaking, not Turkic by genes etc (as the Bulgars were probably not Turkic or not fully Turkic etc and the MAri were not Turkic. I can only undertsand why you are so strongly oppsed in this if say, you are against tem being non Turkic, but then I cant imagine why you will be against them being non Turkic - what is wrong with them being non Turkic, why do you so strongly oppose this even after I explained to you that there is complications with calling them Turkic with certainty. By the way, on the Tatars' talk page, other people also agree that they should be called Turkic speaking. And remember - I have nothing against Turkic people at all, I am arguing here purely for wikipedia article accuracy, for accuracy of information in general, I have no bias to cloud my views or anything like that.

So all in all the fair route is to just say they were Turkic speaking, that way it accommodates other views as well and is NPOV —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.232.75.208 (talk) 15:34, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

There is also another crucial point I want to make - this is what I wrote in another place, in reply to someone: And why do you want to follow the sources, in this particular case, so much - they repeat ideas, old ideas, from previous researcher, who repeat it from previous researchers and so on until you get to some person in the late 1800's and early 1900's who first said the Tatars were Turkic - but the thing is - that was said long before the other theories of the ethnicity of the Bulgars appeared - so what - are we all supposed to now trust and assert a source with these "facts" with absolute certainty - "facts" that was carried over and over from previous researchers and so on - where deductions were made without taking the other theories of the origins of the Bulgars (as these theories only appeared much later) into account and also probably not taking the ethnicity of the Mari into account either (who are not Turkic) - clearly as you can see - the "sources" in this particular case are not very helpful. And anyway how can it be asserted as fact what the genetics of the Tatars are, when there havent been proper, if any, genetic studies on them? Until such a time where there is genetic studies done, all other theories should be equally mentioned, without resistance (and labeling them as original research - which shows prejudice to that those other theories).

Since your "message" started off, "Never ever give me warning again, who do you think you are?? A warning for what, huh?". I saw no reason to respond to any childish demands made by you. Your continued removal of referenced information, regardless of your opinion, is disruptive[2] editing. This along with your battleground mentality[3], is not conducive to creating an encyclopedia.

Nothing you have used for "sources"(which are clearly unpublished opinion) states anything about the Volga Tatars. In comparison, one source that states they are Turkic is from Harvard University. It would appear you are more interested in promoting your own opinion, whereas I am only intersted in information from peer-reviewed published sources. --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:11, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Your original research has been removed and replaced with 2 references stating the Volga Bulgars are Turkic. --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:50, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

You are just a really weird, confused man - after I explain everything clearly you still have confusion about the whole matter - I will involve others in this, I will not leave this as it is, as that would be bad for wikipedia. How on Earth can they be Turkic if the MAri people are non Turks and if there exists clear strong dispute on the Bulgars ethnicity This source that you show me from Harvard is done before the Tangra expedition to Iranic land from the Bulgaria academy of scinces, in other words before it was shown that genetically, Bulgarians (modern) and Iranic people are very close, which means that the Bulgars and Iranic people were very close - this research and expedition was done in 2010 - before the Harvard source, in other words that source and any other source that does not take this new research into account is irrelevant to this article as it is wrongly to add an old source that has not based its research around the latest findings. You can read the sources and thus read about the expedition in the "complaints of racism" section in the Bulgars' talk page(their most recent talk page). You adding these old sources does not help the article at all. And by the way - this HArvars source does not take the other, non Turkic ancestors of the Tatars into account either - the Mari people - so what just because you (mindlessly, without thinking and doing research of your own) added a source from Harvard (that is irrelevant as I explained) you now think you have done this page a good service? And why do you still continue to bring down my source - I have already explained to you that since the Tatars are descended from Bulgars - then you can use information and history about the Bulgars, that does not need to mention the Tatars as Bulgars are Tatars' ancesotrs (its logical, I really cant see what you dont understand) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.232.75.208 (talk) 15:59, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Original research includes "basic observation and examination of history" by any editor. Wikipedia just summarizes what's in reliable sources. It does not take part of one source, and part of another, to reach a conclusion not explicitly stated in either. It does not exclude a reliable source because of newer research, but documents the differences between the two sources. Newer research would be incorporated like this: "Mainstream scholarship says this is true, but newer research indicates that that is true instead."

You are completely wrong for accusing Kansas Bear of original research when he just cited what Harvard has put out. You do not know how things work around here, and I recommend you stop editing until you have a better understanding of the guidelines. In particular, your edits on this site you need to read WP:RS, WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, WP:GEVAL, WP:DUE, and ESPECIALLY WP:AGF. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:09, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

I do know how these things work, I have read on wiki policy etc. I did not accuse of Bear using original research (because he didnt) I just said his source does not include newer information.

Apparently you do not know how these thing work. Your addition to the referenced sentence(in an attempt to subvert what it says) also blatantly ignores this quote from one of the references, "The Volga Tatars are the westernmost of all Turkic ethnic groups...". Not Turkic "speaking", Turkic ethnic groups. Weird, odd, how you continue to ignore published information. Thus the reason for the original research tag you continue to remove(ie. disruptive editing). --Kansas Bear (talk) 16:07, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

>>> Well, it seems that you just don't want to understand (I'm sure you can understand but you just dont want to). There is a rule called "ignore all rules" which is used when rules get in the way of improving articles. You must understand - and it is logical - a group cannot be considered Turkic ethnically if they also incorporate other ethnic elements - such as Mari etc. Now, if you are not aware of the whole Bulgar issue, then you should read the whole latest discussion on the Bulgar discussion page and also check out each link that was posted there. After reading that, anyone with reasonable intelligence can then see that things are not as clear cut as simply reading sources and reading recycled theories that are used over and over again without much thought by the so called scholars. There is a lot of evidence, including new genetic evidence, to suggest that the main ancestors of the Volga Tatars - the Bulgars - were not Turkic but either mixed (Turkic/Asian and Iranic) or entirely Iranic - even if they are mixed it is wrong to call them Turkic, because the Turkic element will then only be a part of their ethnicity, amopng other ethnic parts. That is why encyclopedias such as Britannica uses terms such as Turkic speaking, so that it is more correct - Britannica uses that term for the Tatars, so I really don't see what is so har to understand - it is very logical and straight forward - if an ethnic group has other elements other than Turkic, or as the case may be - if they dont have any Turkic elements (if they are entirely descended from the Bulgars - and there is evidence to suggest that the Bulgars were Iranic), then it is not correct to call them Turkic, but rather they should be called Turkic speaking, because their language is Turkic. Also, we have the best, most obvious evidence on their ethnicity - their appearance - a lot of them have green and blue eyes and light hair - these features don't occur in Turkic people, unless they are mixed. A lot of the Volga Tatars' features dont look Turkic. If you still don't understand what I explained here, then don't bother to edit this page — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.242.176.136 (talk) 08:32, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

That is not a "rule" or even a guideline - that's someone's essay, and that's all it amounts to.50.111.31.194 (talk) 23:48, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

The important thing is that you do not let this political bickering about "Bulgarism" interfere with the discussion of Tatar history. It needs to be contained in its own section about current-day politics and ethnic nationalism. --dab (𒁳) 09:28, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Merge

The Volga Tatars account for about 6 out of 6.7 million Tatars (90%). In other words, the Tatars article has a 90% scope overlap with this one. Perhaps a merge would be appropriate.

This article does not appear to cover any information not already covered in greater detail at Tatars. The main article should be organized along the lines of

1. Volga Tatars
2. Minor groups

with subsections detailing the half million or so non-Volga Tatars.

For exactly the same reason we do not have a Kazan Tatars page separate from Volga Tatars -- the scope overlap would be simply too great to warrant separate standalone articles. --dab (𒁳) 09:15, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

• Merge per the nominator's reasoning. Just a redirect would suffice. --82.26.101.55 (talk) 17:24, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, merge would be appropriate here. JackofDiamonds1 (talk) 23:14, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

• No, definitely not, but a better distinction would be preferable. --Joostik (talk) 11:35, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Infobox

Dear, 188.230.138.253 and Elmasmelih
Please, stop the edit-war.
Instead, discuss here and and decide which photos should be in infobox. What you both do is WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. Ali-al-Bakuvi (talk) 12:08, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Alrighty then. Like i said in my edit summaries, those people(which i put) are much more well-known and famous than 188.230.138.253's candidates. Please Ali-al-Bakuvi write down your thoughts. Sanırım Türkçe anlıyorsun kardeşim. Fikrini belirtmen çok iyi olur. elmasmelih (used to be KazekageTR) 17:37, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Now that Im a registered user let me join in. I think the persons I put in infobox are much more representative for Volga Tatar people as a whole. This is an article about ethnic group and not competition in famousness. The fact that person is on wikipedia is a prove that he is famous enough. But like I said above, this article is really not about that. Epoxyorlyx (talk) 17:51, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Well i say it is all bout that. Take a look at other ethnic groups like Germans or Irish people or French people. elmasmelih (used to be KazekageTR) 18:07, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

You can say whatever you want. But you need to realise there's more to Wikipedia than just what you say. And since you're bringing up articles of other ethnic groups to compare, let's mention the Russians (who in fact are very relevant when discussing Kabaeva and Shayk, being ethnically half-Russian themselves). Yesterday I tried adding Alina Kabaeva into the infobox of Russians, and you know what happened? I was reverted, on grounds that Kabaeva shouldn't be included because she's only half, and as such "isn't representative because only one of the parents was Russian". Going by the same logic, she should not be included in the Tatar infobox either, because only one of the parents was Tatar. And since comparing this article to articles of other ethic groups is your premise, you need to either convince the Russians to let Kabaeva be included there as well, or accept my replacing of Kabaeva and Shayk with people more representative for the article about Tatars. This is Wikipedia, not DoubleStandardia. There's lots of well-known Tatars who can be placed there instead.Epoxyorlyx (talk) 14:36, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Well mate you can check on Turkish people if you want to compare situations. As you know every single Ottoman rule has a non-muslim converted mother but they are still Turks. You know why, cause they declare themselves as Turks. Like Shayk, she declared herself as Tatar, if you want proof i an give you a link to her statement. I don't know if you are a Tatar or not mate but you should know that every single ethnic article has 'famous' persons on their infoboxes. There might be a consensus on not adding half breeds to the infobox in Russian people article. but it is not going to work on here. By the way, we could talk about who to put to infobox in here to avoid stubbornness on this issue mate. I am a cooperative person actually, are you? elmasmelih (used to be KazekageTR) 16:13, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Shayk declares herself as both Tatar and as Russian. She identifies with both sides, and is equally as proud of both sides.

If every single Ottoman ruler has a non-Turkish mother, then I don't think their incluion in Turkish infobox is at all comparable to the situation of inclusion of half-Tatar gymnasts and celebrity in the Tatar article. Ottoman rulers are major figures of Turkish history, and if they're all half breeds then it only makes sense for that article to include them. But on the other hand, there are many famous Tatar gymnasts and celebs who aren't half breeds.

You claim to be cooperative, well let me tell you that's not what you come across as. Initially you told me to "take a look at articles of other ethnic groups," and when I did just that you now switch the record amd say "maybe it's like that there, but it's not going to work on here". You're totally disregarding just because it's not how you like it. I, on the other hand, am truy cooperative. I believe to have proven this given the fact that while my edits replaced several more initially, I could settle to replace 2 only (Kabaeva and Shayk). If you hate Garaeva and Marcani then maybe we could settle on the first president of Tatarstan Mintimer Shaymiev and leading figure Ayaz Ishaki being the replacement. Epoxyorlyx (talk) 21:45, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 February 2015

Just a spelling thing I noticed, wondered why the edit button wasn't there, found out about the protection, decided to try this edit request thing:

"yet according to anothery theory" should be "yet according to another theory"

A suggestion for dealing with these edit requests better: Instead of having an entirely separate process for submitting edit requests, how about simply using the existing Edit feature (as if you had clicked Edit-page or Edit-section), with a notification of protection at the top of the edit page like the one I see above, and changing the 'minor edit' note textbox to a required field and increase its size to a multi-line text-area like this one I'm typing in, and perhaps the same template text with Begin request/End request etc.

When the edit is submitted, it would not be incorporated immediately, but would require approval the same way this edit request does, but instead of having to interpret my edit request, it could just be approved and folded into the history of the page as any other edit would be (by wiki-diff, for example).

I think this would make for the allowance of helpful edits less cumbersome and more likely to be submitted, while still protecting the page from edit wars, etc. Overall this would encourage the average person's participation in Wikipedia more, while still just as effectively discouraging abuses of Wikipedia. I don't know where else this feature request/improvement should be made, so if this is the wrong place to ask, whoever knows where it should go, please copy/paste this feature request in the appropriate place, as I am unlikely to remember to come back and check on this kind-of-obscure edit request thing. Thanks in advance. :-) 24.57.77.150 (talk) 23:23, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

 Done I did the correction, thank you. Joseph2302 (talk) 00:02, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

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Religion

A recent, persistent IP editor (109.226.103.42) insists that Volga Tatars practice both Islam and Russian Orthodoxy. The cited source also states:

"The traditional religions of the Republic of Tatarstan are Islam and Orthodox Christianity. Tatars and Bashkirs (i.e. nearly half of the population of the republic) confess Islam."

The fact that Tatarstan has a significant population who confess as Russian Orthodox says nothing about the Volga Tatars' religion.--Quisqualis (talk) 02:00, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Religion

@History1552:None of your references are directed towards the volga tatar's the first one leads you to the overall tatar group not the subgroup of the volga tatars and the second one leads you to tatarstan which has over 40% russian population also both of my references are linked to the voga tatar people. Arsi786 (talk)

Need your help I think he is the same Ip guy :::@Hhkohh:

Wikimedia link is wrong

Wikimedia link is wrong. It links to a page called Tatar people but it should link to a Category named so. Someone with permission should correct it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.125.72.111 (talk) 16:43, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Wikimedia link is still wronk. Now it links to a page about Tatar national dresses. It should link to this category: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Volga_Tatars --87.125.72.111 (talk) 00:57, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

 Fixed. – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:11, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 December 2019

Notable Tatars - Nail Yakupov is an ethnic Tatar who was drafted first overall in the 2012 NHL Entry DRCassie (talk) 04:48, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

 Done – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:09, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

- Alina Zagitova is a figure skater and the 2018 Olympic Champion. Both of her parents are Volga Tatars. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sarahjanelage (talk • contribs) 12:27, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 March 2020

Add Alina Zagitova, figure skater and 2018 Olympic champion, to the 'notable Tatars' section. Sarahjanelage (talk) 14:40, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 15:53, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Famine in Tatarstan

It seems to me that separating this event into a separate section violates the structure. We can put it in the "History" section?

Even in this form, there will be some imbalance - I'm not sure if this section should be in an ethnographic article. The famine was a terrible tragedy, yes, but, for example, military losses in WW2 still play a much larger role on the demographic structure of the Tatars. Like the war losses, the death rate from Famine was not of an ethnic character (although due to the territory of its distribution it touched the Tatars especially strongly) - the authorities provided their help to all starving people, and not on the basis of their religious or ethnicity (as was the case during the all famines in the Russian Empire). Large-scale massacres of an ethnic character are 1551-1562,1708-1711 and 1730-1740-e. This tragedy did not have any ethnic color.94.140.193.130 (talk) 11:45, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Translation of the self-name into Tatar.

"Идел-Урал татарлары" is translated as Volga-Ural Tatars. The translation of the phrase "Volga Tatars" into Tatar would be "Идел буе татарлары". But such a term is not found in the Tatar language (it can only be found as an indication of the place of residence of concret persons, but not as an ethnographic term or self-name). This is the construct of the English-speaking ethnologists (Russian ethnologists usaly use "Volga-Ural Tatars") and it cannot have a self-name. In reality, it is impossible to single out the Volga Tatars in the Volga-Ural Tatars (all the groups listed below, except for the Nuqrat and Kasimov Tatars, live and in the Volga region and in the Urals). Perhaps it is better to just delete this translation and not give a translation to something that is generally not translated into Tatar? 94.140.193.130 (talk) 12:50, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

can you elaborate? Beshogur (talk) 15:24, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

I don't know how to elaborate. In my opinion of the Ural Tatar, who here falls into the category of "Volga Tatar", and at the same time never heard that the Tatars of the Volga-Ural region called themselves anything other than simply "Tatars" (except for the Nagajbaks and part of the Kryashens), the object of the article is absurd itself. It's just a feature of the English-speaking academic tradition that I don't comprehend. I just deleted the incorrect translation. 94.140.193.130 (talk) 07:47, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Notable Tatars

Is this even need? I remember that a few years ago I read this article (or then the article about the Tatars was still ethnographic in nature and was not a description of an English-language term), it had a huge list, which was therefore removed as unnecessary. Maybe it's better to remove it right away? 94.140.193.130 (talk) 12:49, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Wrong argumentation

"The 1921–1922 famine in Tatarstan was a period of mass starvation and drought that took place in the Tatar ASSR as a result of war communism policy,[22][23] in which 500,000[24] to 2,000,000[25] peasants died. The event was part of the greater Russian famine of 1921–22 that affected other parts of the USSR,[26] in which up 5,000,000 people died in total.[27][28]"

The starvation was not part of the war communism policy, but of the war itself. --2A02:8389:2181:A400:D847:6B00:40BC:8CC3 (talk) 13:37, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Anthropological types of Kazan Tatars

The most significant in the field of anthropology of the Kazan Tatars are the studies of T. A. Trofimova, conducted in 1929-1932. In particular, in 1932, together with G. F. Debets, she conducted extensive research in Tatarstan. 160 Tatars were examined in Arsky district, 146 Tatars in Yelabuga district, 109 Tatars in Chistopol district. Anthropological studies have revealed the presence of four main anthropological types among the Kazan Tatars: Pontic, light Caucasoid, sublaponoid, Mongoloid.

We did not take the research "Tatars of the Arsky district of Tatarstan" since the Arsky Tatars are ancient Aryans (Udmurts) Votyatskaya (Kirov region) and Udmurtia.

Tatars of Yelabuga district of Tatarstan and Chistopol district of Tatarstan:

Light Caucasian - 16,7 %

Pontic - 44,4 %

Sublaponoid - 13,9 %

Mongoloid - 25,0 %

Pontic type — Kazan Tatars the consequences of the arrival of Crimean Tatars to the Kazan Khanate in several waves, the last arrival was Khan Safa Giray with his troops.

The light Caucasian type — Kazan Tatars were passed on from Russian slaves who were in the service of the Tatar khans.

The sublaponoid type (Volga-Kama) are representatives of the assimilated Finno—Ugric peoples of the Volga region as Kypchakized Mari (Cheremis), Komi-Zyryans (Permians) and Udmurts.

The Mongoloid type (South Siberian) was transmitted from the Siberian Tatars from Tyumen and part of the Bashkirs and Kazakhs, who also played a role in the Kazan Khanate. Dog Nogai (talk) 15:59, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Kazan and Orenburg Tatars

— Miller Karl Wilhelm. "Description of all the peoples living in the Russian state,.." Part Two. About the peoples of the Tatar tribe. S-P, 1776, Translated from German.

Since the time when the Kazan kingdom was defeated by Russian power and added to the Russian state, many Tatars scattered during this war, and the rest moved partly in droves to the then undefeated Tatar regions: that's why much more changes were made in the Kazan kingdom than in other conquered places…

Under this [Russian] rule, many Kazan Tatars, with the permission of it, moved from their former places to live in other countries that seemed more free to them: that's why the number of scattered villages and villages of these Tatars in the border provinces with Kazan, namely in Orenburg, Tobolsk, and partly also in Voronezh, multiplied, and in some others ... however, they are consistent with the Kazan Tatars in their everyday rites of faith: why I will not apply, speaking of these, and refer to these.

The Orenburg Kazan Tatars should by no means be confused with the hordes that migrated to this [Orenburg] province, such as the Kirghiz, and partly the Ufa Tatars. Direct Orenburg Tatars live in Orenburg, partly scattered along the fortresses of the Orenburg line along the Ural River, and partly in special settlements, in their own settlements and the town of Kargal on the Sakmara River, 18 versts from Orenburg… Ufa city and village Tatars are ancient ancient Kazan fugitives, and they are crowded. In the Orenburg Isesh province, a village consisting of some villages has been maintained for more than a hundred years, and is called the Ichkinsky Stream…

All Orenburg and Kazan Tatars outnumber the real Kazan Tatars, and there will be no less than Kazan Tatars living in the scattering. Kazan Tatars got their name from the main city of Kazan… In other respects, according to their own legends, they are not of a special tribe, but descended from the fighters who remained here [in Kazan] on the settlement of different generations and from foreigners attracted to Kazan, but especially Nogai Tatars, who all through their union into a single society formed a special people. Dog Nogai (talk) 16:04, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

The basis of the Kazan Tatars

The ethnic basis of the Kazan Tatars was mainly composed of Kipchaks (Crimean Tatars and Nogais), also partly local Finno-Ugric peoples (Mari, Udmurts, Permians), Chuvashs, Bashkirs and representatives of the Slavic ethnos.

Khans of Kazan and Kazan Tatars

Ulu-Muhammad Khan, son of Ichkile Hasan-oglan (1438-1445), former khan of the Golden Horde.

Mahmud Khan, son of Ulu-Muhammad Khan (1445-1466).

Khalil Khan, son of Mahmud Khan (1466-1467).

Ibrahim Khan, son of Mahmud Khan (1467-1479).

Ilham Khan, son of Ibrahim Khan (1479-1484, 1485-1487).

Mohammed-Amin Khan, son of Ibrahim Khan (1484-1485, 1487-1496, 1502-1518).

Mamuk (Tyumen tatar) Khan (1496-1497).

Abdul-Latif Khan, son of Ibrahim Khan (1497-1502).

Shah-Ali Khan, son of Kasimov (mishari tatars ~ meschera) Sheikh-Auliyar Sultan (1519-1521, 1546, 1551-1552).

Sahib-Giray Khan, son of Crimean Khan Mengli-Giray (1521-1524).

Safa-Giray Khan, son of Crimean Khan Saadet-Giray (1524-1531, 1536-1546, 1546-1549).

Jan-Ali Khan, son of Sheikh-Auliyar Sultan (1532-1535).

Utyamysh-Giray Khan, son of Safa-Giray Khan (1549-1551).

Yadygar-Muhammad Khan, son of Astrakhan Khan (nogais) Kasim (1552).

Ali-Akram Khan (Nogai dynasty) (1553-1556).

No Bulgarian khans ruled the Kazan Khanate, it's all fake. The Kipchak Tatars who arrived on the Volga-Kamye in the era of the Golden Horde (Jochi Ulus) from different Kipchak suburbs and the Kazan Tatars constitute something other than late arrivals to the Middle Volga and assimilation of local peoples, translating them into Mohammedanism and preaching the scriptures in the Kipchak state language.

Herberstein Sigismund - (1486-1566):

"The Kazan Kingdom, the city of Kazan and the fortress of the same name lie near the Volga, on the left bank of the river, in the east and south, it adjoins the desert steppe, and in the southeast it borders with the Tatars of Sheyban and Kaysat. The king of this country can field 30,000 soldiers, mostly on foot, among whom the Cheremis and Chuvash are the most skillful shooters. The Chuvash are distinguished by their knowledge of shipping.

The Arab historian Al-Omari (Shihabuddin al-Umari) wrote that, having joined the Golden Horde, the Cumans moved to the position of subjects. The Tatar-Mongols who settled on the territory of the Polovtsian steppe gradually mixed with the Polovtsians. Al-Omari concludes that after several generations, the Tatars began to look like Polovtsy: "as if from the same (with them) kind," because they began to live on their lands.

Reduction of the number of Chuvash

The main reason for the decline in the number of Chuvash is assimilation.

In the Russian Empire living in the Kazan province in the census of 1819

Chuvash................ 272 000 h

Tatars.................. 136 500 h (together with the kryashens).

A) in 1826 in the Kazan province there was:

Chuvash total..............371 758 hours

Tatars.......................136,470 hours .

Chuvash for more than 235 288 hours .

B) In 1897, according to the census, it was in the Kazan province:

Chuvash......................513 044 ch .

Tatars........................744 267 hours .

There were more Tatars by 231,223 hours .

The rapid and excessive numerical growth of the Tatar population, which in 1876 was almost twice as small as the Chuvash, and in 1897 exceeded them by almost 2 times, is explained precisely by the absorption of the Chuvash population.

If we take the Kryashens, then it is possible that the Udmurts switched to the Kipchak language but did not have time to Islamize, as evidenced by the map and their national clothes and culture.

Arsk Tatars (Arsky District of Tatarstan) these are kypchakized Udmurts (they are Ary, Votyaks).

Mishari Tatars are a kypchakized Мeschera:

In the documents of the XIV—XV centuries, Mishars are called "meshcheryaks", and in the later XVI—XVII centuries — under the general name "Tatars".

" Those who have become rich have become more rich, those who have become Russian have become Russian, and those who have become rich have no signs of anything of their own. They live in villages in well-arranged houses on the Russian model; they dress exactly like Tatars…They also zealously practice the Mohammedan religion, strictly follow all the laws of Mahomet."— Mordvins, Mescheryaks and Teptyari, N.A. Alexandrova., Moscow, 1900.

In 1897: 622.5 thousand people

In 1926: about 200 thousand people Dog Nogai (talk) 16:36, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Fragment from the book "The Gene Pool of Europe" by Oleg Balanovsky

Panorama of peoples against the background of Europe. Non-Slavic peoples of Eastern Europe (series III).

Oleg Balanovsky "The Gene Pool of Europe".

MAPPING SIMILARITIES WITH THE GENE POOL OF KAZAN TATARS (Fig. 5.24)

According to the 2010 census, 2 million Tatars live in Tatarstan. But since these data include both Mishars, and Kryashens, and Teptyars, the number of Kazan Tatars of Tatarstan is probably comparable to the number of Bashkirs of Bashkortostan. However, the Kazan Tatars are characterized by a completely different genetic landscape than the Bashkirs – the area of populations genetically similar to the Kazan Tatars is extensive and all facing Northeastern Europe.

Although the area of populations most similar to the Kazan Tatars (dark green tones showing minimum genetic distances of 0<d<0.05) is small, the area of populations colored in yellow-green tones of small genetic distances (0.05<d<0.10) is extremely extensive (Fig. 5.24). This landscape almost completely echoes the landscape of Northeastern Europe (Figure 5.10), described in detail in the first series of maps (Section 5.1.). The entire northern and western part of the range of similar populations is almost the same (except for the Barents Sea coast) – it includes not only western Finns and Balts, but also the west of Fennoscandia (Fig. 5.10). In the south of this area, the Volga again serves as the border.

But there is a difference. Unlike the peoples of Northeastern Europe, the area of similar gene pools covers Tatarstan and part of the populations of Bashkortostan, indicating the presence of a common Northern European substrate among them. If it were necessary to give an expressive name to the most characteristic features of this map, then it could be called the landscape of the "left bank of the Volga" — since the Volga practically limits the range of gene pools that played the most important role in the formation of the gene pool of the Kazan Tatars. And it should be noted that the Y-chromosomal genetic landscape does not confirm either the Bulgarian or the Golden Horde versions of the ethnogenesis of the Kazan Tatars, but instead emphasizes the powerful Northern European genetic substrate in their gene pool.

MAPPING SIMILARITIES WITH THE CHUVASH GENE POOL (Fig. 5.26)

The next gene pool in our progress from east to west is the Chuvash, which in the data on a wide panel of Y—chromosome haplogroups is so far represented by the only population studied on the territory of Tatarstan. But despite its geographical proximity to the Mishars and Kazan Tatars, and their common belonging to the Turkic languages, and a large number (according to the 2010 census, there are about 1.5 million Chuvash people in Russia), the Chuvash are a genetic island – we do not find other populations genetically similar to them at all.

I immediately remember that the Chuvash language is the only survivor of the Bulgarian branch of the Turkic languages. It is also unique in that it branches off from the common branch of the Turkic languages earlier than anyone else and seems to be the first to penetrate into Europe, moving westward from the distant ancestral homeland of the Turks. This path was not only long, but also long – with inevitable contacts and borrowings along the way. Therefore, it is not surprising that a significant layer associated with the culture of ancient farmers of the Near East is assumed in the culture of the Chuvash. It's hard not to remember this when looking at the genetic landscape of the Chuvash. For the first time, unlike all the previously considered maps, we see that the southern territories – the Caucasus, Transcaucasia and Near Asia – are not painted in the maximum dark red tones of genetic distances as in all previous genetic landscapes, but in orange tones of moderately large genetic differences. And indeed, the peculiarity of the Chuvash gene pool is determined primarily by the sharply increased (compared to all neighbors) frequencies of haplogroups E and J, typical of the Near East.

In general, the genetic landscape of the Chuvash does not contradict (unlike the landscape of the Kazan Tatars) the "Bulgarian" version of their ethnogenesis. However, for decisive conclusions, it is necessary, of course, a detailed study of all three ethnographic groups of the Chuvash, each of which has been influenced by different neighboring ethnic groups. Having put this mosaic together, we may be able to discern the most ancient genetic layer in the gene pool of the Chuvash.

O.P. Balanovsky - The Gene Pool of Europe (О.П. Балановский - Генофон Европы)

KMK Moscow 2015 / ISBN 978-5-9907157-0-7 Russia Dog Nogai (talk) 17:30, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Facts from sources

In the book: "Alphabetical list of peoples living in the Russian Empire" of 1895." it is written: Kazan Tatars are the descendants of the Tatars of the Kazan kingdom of the Kipchak Horde (strangely speaking the Kipchak language)! And there are no Bulgarian Tatars there.

Kazan Tatars - the Kipchak Horde

Crimean Tatars - the Crimean Horde

Astrakhan Tatars - the Golden Horde

Siberian Tatars - the Siberian Kingdom

Again, even here we do not see that the Tatars are considered descended from the Bulgars.

Kipchaks - in the Old Russian chronicles – Polovcy, in European sources – Cumans, the Turkic-speaking people of the steppe. But the vast majority of Kipchaks became part of the Golden Horde.

By the 1030s, they occupied the steppe spaces from the Irtysh to the Volga. Since the 11th century, the vast expanse from the Danube to the western spurs of the Tien Shan was known as the Polovtsian Land (Desht-i-Kipchak).

In 1223, when the Mongol detachments of Jebe and Subetei invaded the North Caucasus from the south, the Kipchaks refused to ally with the Alans and allowed the Mongols to deal with them, but then they themselves were defeated. Russian Russian Khan Kotyan, who was wandering in the Black Sea steppes, turned to the Russian princes for help, but the Russian-Polovtsian army was defeated in the Battle of Kalka. In 1239, defeated in the Astrakhan steppes by the army of the Mongol Batu Khan (in the Russian chronicles - Batu), Kotyan, along with 40 thousand Kipchaks, fled to Hungary, which provoked a Mongol campaign against this country. Khan Kotyan was killed by the Hungarian nobility, some of the Polovtsians found refuge in the Balkans. But the vast majority of Kipchaks became part of the Golden Horde. They assimilated the Mongol newcomers and gave them their language. After the 14th century, the Kipchaks became part of the Tatars, Kazakhs, Bashkirs, Karachays, Kumyks and other peoples. One of the Kazakh tribes of the Middle Zhuz in the 16th and 19th centuries was called Kipchaks. Kipchak is translated from Turkic as a Nightingale, and was a generic totem. The Turks often had animal totems. From this it formed the basis of the Russian fairy tale "The Robber Nightingale". It was believed that in the steppe, the Kipchak tribe made the sounds of a nightingale (whistle) for communication (communication).

Nogai Horde.

Nogai Tatars are a Kipchak people, in the north-west their nomads reached the Kazan Khanate. Nogai was reputed to be an outstanding commander: he was the victor of the Hulaguid army of Iran, made campaigns against European states, the possessions of Byzantium, Serbia and Bulgaria recognized vassalage on him. Nogai was so influential that many of his contemporaries and a number of famous scientists considered him the legitimate ruler of the Golden Horde.

The ruler is a commander and a valiant warrior, as a preacher of Islam, united the Nogai people under his caring authority. During the reign of Edige, the process of Islamization is being completed in the Golden Horde.

A place was also set aside in Kazan for the Nogai embassy, called the "Mangyt place".

Nogais of Kuban (Karachay-Cherkessia) Crimean Tatar, Yurts Tatars (Astrakhan) and Alabugat Tatars settled on the lands of Volga Bulgaria.

Nogai Tatars are a Kipchak people, in the north-west their nomads reached the Kazan Khanate. The Nogai Horde was an ally of the Mongols and served Batu faithfully. From this union comes the expression of the Tatar-Mongol yoke.

Tatar language - belongs to the Volga-Kipchak subgroup of the Kipchak group of Turkic languages.

The closest relative of the modern Tatar language is the Bashkir language. In the 6-volume work of the team of authors of the Institute of Linguistics of the Russian Academy of Sciences, which has been created for several decades, the Tatar language is divided into three dialects (Western, Middle and Eastern), however, Barabinsky stands out as a separate language, which together with Tatar and Bashkir languages forms the northern (or Uralic) subgroup of the Kipchak group of Turkic languages. However, in the article published in the same work, an alternative classification of O.A. is given. Mudraka, in which the Barabinsky language does not stand out, and the beginning of the collapse of the common for the middle and eastern dialects of the Tatar language of the great dialect dates from the middle of the XVI century (the approximate time of the fall of the Kazan and Astrakhan khanates). One of the surviving sources describing the pre—Tatar language is — Codex Cumanicus, where - tatar tili ("Tatar language") is given as a self-designation. In the era of the Golden Horde, the Volga Turks became the language of its subjects — a language close to the Ottoman and Chagatai (Old Uzbek) literary languages. During the period of the Kazan and Astrakhan khanates, the Old Tatar language was formed, which is characterized by a large number of borrowings from Arabic and Persian.

Since the second half of the XIX century, the formation of the modern Tatar national language, which ended at the beginning of the XX century, begins on the basis of the Kazan dialect. In the reformation of the Tatar language, two stages can be distinguished — the second half of the XIX — the beginning of the XX century (before 1905) and 1905-1917. At the first stage, the main role in the creation of the national language belonged to Kayum Nasyri (1825-1902). After the revolution of 1905-1907, the situation in the field of reforming the Tatar language changed dramatically: there is a convergence of the literary language with the vernacular. In 1912, Fakhrel-Islam Ageev founded the children's magazine "Ak-yul", which marked the beginning of children's fiction in the Tatar language. In the 1920s, language construction began: the terminological apparatus was developed first based on the Tatar and Arabic-Persian vocabulary proper, and since the 1930s - on Russian and international using Cyrillic graphics.

The modern literary Tatar language is close to the Kazan dialect in phonetics and vocabulary, and to the Mishar dialect in morphological structure.

The pronunciation norm of the modern literary language is assigned to the dialect of the Kazan Tatars.

The Kipchak languages are one of the largest groups of Turkic languages in terms of the number of languages (more than 10), dating back to the unified Kipchak language. Other names: North-west, tau group, etc.

Kipchak languages are spoken throughout Russia from the Baltic and the Black Sea region to the Caucasus and the Urals up to Siberia, as well as in Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan. The number of speakers of the Kipchak languages exceeds twenty million.

It includes the following subgroups:

Polovtsian-Kypchak (Western Kypchak, Kypchak-Cuman, Caucasian-Dagestan, Kypchak-Polovtsian) — Karaite, Karachay-Balkar, Krymchak (however, there are many Oguz elements in the modern spoken and especially written speech of the Krymchak language) and Kumyk languages, as well as the dead Polovtsian language, Mamluk-Kypchak language. The Crimean and Urum languages occupy an intermediate position between the Kipchak and Oguz languages (a number of dialects are Kipchak-Polovtsian, a number are Oguz in origin, the literary norm is mixed);

Volga-Kypchak (North-Kypchak, Ural-Volga) — Tatar (including Siberian dialects) and Bashkir languages; or Tatar (including Eastern dialect), Barabinsky and Bashkir languages.

Kypchak-Nogai (Kypchak-Kazakh, Deshti-Siberian, Nogai-Kypchak) — Kazakh, Karakalpak, Nogai, Tobolo-Irtysh Siberian-Tatar, steppe Crimean, Alabugat, Karagash, Yurt Tatar, Uzbek-Nogai;

Kirghiz-Kypchak (East Kypchak) — Kirghiz, South Altai, Ferghana-Kypchak, Barabinsky and Tomsk Siberian-Tatar.

The Volga-Kipchak community is not recognized by many scientists, there is an alternative point of view, according to which the Tatar language is Polovtsian-Kipchak, and Bashkir Nogai-Kipchak. A similar point of view (without dividing the Kipchak languages into subgroups) is formulated in the section by O.A. Mudrak, written for the collective monograph "Comparative historical grammar of the Turkic languages. Regional reconstructions" edited by E. R. Tenishev). At the same time, in the main section of the same monograph, the northern (Uralic) subgroup of the Kipchak languages is singled out, including Tatar, Bashkir and Barabinsk languages.

Аnd again, we do not see any relation of the Kazan Tatars to the Bulgars! Because the Volga Bulgars spoke the Ogur dialect with Rhotacism!

How easy it is to prove in 5 seconds that the Chuvash are descendants of the Volga Bulgars.

1) Tatishchev V.N. in 1721 wrote that the Chuvash were ancient Bulgarians and was personally acquainted with this people, but he did not even know the fact that 90% of the Bulgarian tombstone epitaphs of 400 pieces were written in the Chuvash language in Arabic script!

2) Only in 1863, the Tatar scientist Huseyn Feyzkhanov discovered the secrets of the Bulgarian epitaphs and wrote "Three Bulgarian tombstone Inscriptions", in which he presented to the scientific community the results of deciphering the Bulgarian epitaphs in Chuvash words! That is, Tatishchev at that time did not even know about this fact with the Bulgarian monuments, and H. Feyzkhanov only confirmed this fact about 200 years after Tatishchev's death!

During the Golden Horde period in the XIV - first half of the XV century, a new Tatar people began to form from the Central Asian Tatar tribes that arrived with the Mongols and appeared in the Lower Volga region in the XI century. Kipchaks (Polovtsy, Cumans, Pechenegs). There were only insignificant groups of Kipchaks on the Bulgarian land, and there were very few of them on the territory of the future Kazan Khanate. But during the events of 1438 - 1445, associated with the formation of the Kazan Khanate, together with Khan Uluk-Muhammad, about 40 thousand Tatars arrived here at once. Subsequently, Tatars from Astrakhan, Azov, Crimea, Kasimov, Tyumen, Saray and other places moved to the Kazan Khanate. In the same way, the Tatars who arrived from Sarkel founded the Kasimov Khanate. The new Tatars began to displace the Muslim Bulgars from the Kazan Khanate, who migrated from the left bank and from the southern regions of the right bank of the Volga to the northern regions of modern Chuvashia, falling into the midst of the Bulgars - the remnants of pagans who did not accept Islam, they began to depart from Islam and returned back to their native faith. Some of the remaining Bulgars in Kazan switched from the Bulgarian language to the current Kipchak language and disappeared among the Tatars. This explains the pagan-Islamic syncretism of the pre-Christian religion of the Chuvash, as well as the spread of Muslim names among them. The habit of starting prayers with "Pesmelle" by standing towards the east and kneeling. The complete settlement of the northern half of modern Chuvashia by the Chuvash occurred only in the XIV - early XV centuries, and until that time the ancestors of the mountain Mari (mountain Cheremis) numerically prevailed there. After that, the entire territory of present-day Chuvashia was occupied by the Bulgaro-Chuvash, partially assimilating, partially displacing the Mari people from its northwestern regions. Dog Nogai (talk) 21:03, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Assimilation by the Kipchaks of the Finno-Ugric peoples.

Kazan Tatars speak the typical Kipchak dialect of the Turkic languages and are partly descendants of the Nogais, and they, in turn, are Polovtsians (Cumans). Another factor is the sources of the Russian chronicles - "the Tatar people captured the entire Bulgarian land," which indicates to us that the conquered Bulgarian people could not call themselves Tatars in any way, in honor of those who actually destroyed them.

Let's return to the Kazan Khanate and the Tatars. Tatars actually appeared in the Volga-Kamye quite late, only in the era of the hegemony of the "Golden Horde" and consisted mainly of the Kipchak peoples: Nogais and Crimean Tatars. Nogai Tatars, they are also called Crimean steppe Tatars, are the real Polovtsian Kipchaks.

The official state language in the Golden Horde was the Kipchak language. Many sermons of Islam were also conducted in the Kipchak language, sacred books were written in the Kipchak language. Thus, many subjects of the peoples who were part of the Golden Horde or on their side switched to the Kipchak language as Mishars (Meschera), Kryashens, etc.

Islamization in the Volga region was subject to such peoples as Mari, Udmurts, Chuvash, Permians and Mescheryaks (Mishars).  The process of assimilation of the ethnic culture of the Volga peoples with the Tatar culture through their adoption of the Muslim religion with a gradual change of the former ethnic identity to the Tatar one. According to this, Kazan Tatars are heterogeneous and have Finno-Ugric genetics and anthropology.

The conversion of the Finno-Ugrians to Islam and the gradual transition to the Tatar language occurred in connection with the work of Muslim missionaries, Tatar mullahs, who, coming to their villages, conducted their sermons in the Tatar language. Their population willingly converted to Islam, since the policy of aggressive baptism of pagans by Moscow caused dissatisfaction in rural society, which the mullahs willingly used. Islam, which was in opposition to Orthodoxy, was for the pagans of the Volga region, who lived among the Tatars, a means of social resistance. At the same time, the adoption of Islam led to the actual otatarivanie, as pagans after the adoption of Islam gradually became ethnic Tatars.

As historians and demographers V. D. Dimitriev, V. M. Kabuzan and others point out, the increase in the number of Tatars also occurred due to the assimilation of the Chuvash who converted to Islam.

As the historian H. V. Nikolsky notes, "in these conditions, in order to preserve their rights to the lands, the Chuvash rulers adopted Christianity and gradually merged with the indigenous Russian element. Other Chuvash family chiefs approached the Tatar princes in order to jointly counteract the restrictive measures of the government. The Chuvash Murzas of the Nizhny Novgorod Region, mentioned under 1647, did not exist by the beginning of the XVIII century: they had become tatarized and Muslimized." As a result, the Chuvash murzas and princelings Russified or otatarivalas.

Chuvash, Votyaks and Cheremis have always converged more with Bashkirs, and in general with Mohammedans, than with Russians; very many of the Chuvash, even baptized, easily through rapprochement with Mohammedans were seduced into Mohammedanism. In the Orenburg province, in the Verkhneuralsky Uyezd, there is a Teptyarsko-Uchalinskaya volost consisting of 12 villages inhabited by descendants of the baptized Chuvash who adopted Mohammedanism.In the Ufa province, all Teptyari are Mohammedans of the same origin. At the end of the XII and the beginning of the XVIII century, there was strong propaganda in the forms of conversion of Chuvash and other foreigners to Mohammedanism. Chuvash people always willingly visit the mosque, saying that they understand everything there, but nothing in the church.

In the Sviyazhsky district in 1742-1746, 33 newly baptized and 260 unbaptized Chuvash were seduced and circumcised according to the Mohammedan law, and 26 Chuvash women are wives of Muslim Tatars. (Peter Ivanovich Köppen 1861: 507 pages)

In the second half of the XVIII century, a significant number of Chuvash, as was the custom of Tatars, shaved their heads, ate horse meat, and some did not keep pigs (Miller G.F., 1791: 11, 22).

In the eyes of the central villages, the Mohammedan training is dropped off, with the help of their own native language, having accepted the sacrament of Cheremis, Votyaks and Chuvash become Tatars. (Original - На глазахъ цѣльтми деревнями отпадаютъ въ магометанскаго обученія, съ помощію своего же родного языка, приняв таинство черемисы, вотяки и чуваши дѣлаются татарами.)

"It has been written many times that Islamism is spreading especially rapidly between ardent, easily carried away, sensual peoples. Such are the Arabs, such are the Negroes, among whom Islamism has recently made significant progress. They say that Islamism is an incendiary doctrine, and the easier it is to embrace peoples, the more combustible materials are in the nature of the people. We do not understand at all what combustible materials Islamism has reached among the apathetic Chuvash, who can be lured to Magomedov's paradise with gingerbread rather than gurias. They say that Islamism spreads by fire and sword. But it's not with fire and sword that the Tatars are dragging the Chuvash into Islam. Against fire and sword, the police officer would take the most effective measures in a timely manner. Meanwhile, it turns out that even the baptized Chuvash are retreating from Orthodoxy to Islam." (Baron Peter Uslar)

XIX century . For example, in the Tetyushsky district of the Kazan province, baptized Chuvash people in the dd converted to Mohammedanism. Kukshumka (43 housewives), Belaya Voloshka (50 housewives) and Uteeevo (24 housewives). Similar processes were going on in Chistopol and Spassky counties. In the Kazan diocese, according to official estimates alone, in 1866 there were 9,000 natural Chuvash apostates. Moreover, they claimed that their fathers and grandfathers were Mohammedans (Chicherina, 1905: 131-132).

The Chuvash, both themselves and from the Russians, who are called by this name and, above all, who had their homes down the Volga River, are ancient Bulgarians, they filled the entire district of Kazan and Simbirsk, but upon receiving baptism, some of them, unable to enter the Christian faith, moved to the meadow side of the Volga River, Bashkirs and others places where they settled, and others moved to different places, on the upland side of the Volga, mixed with Tatars, Mordvins and Cheremis.

From the bills of sale of the last century on the land of the neighboring village of Akshuata, the former "Tagayevsky district", it is clear that Chuvash lived in the village of Staro-Timoshkina together with the Tatars, despite the absence of the latter (Chuvash), the preserved name of the place "Chuvash mazarks" (cemetery) it further strengthens the unquestionable belonging of this nationality behind him. - Polivanov V.N. "Archaeological map of Simbirsk province". Simbirsk, 1900

Mullahs often helped Chuvash children to get an education. Several Chuvash boys studied at the madrasa with Karim-mullah. And in general, as Nikifor wrote: "The Tatars knew how to have the Chuvash to themselves." So many Chuvash people converted to the Muslim faith, so the Chuvash were getting rich. On February 15, 1896, 492 people from 79 pagan families from the village of Staroe Gankino, Buguruslanovsky District, petitioned the Minister of Internal Affairs and the Orenburg Mufti to classify them to the Muslim faith.

As of 1870, many Chuvash villages began to be considered Tatar, for example: Old and New Nikitino (985 souls), Soldakaevo-Obrykino (181 souls), Novoe Uzeyevo (502 souls), Sredny Chelny (487 souls) in Chistopol district, Tugaevo (1088 souls), Suncheleevo (850 souls) in Tsivilsky district, Belaya Voloshka (864 souls) and Uteevo (437 souls) in Tetyushsky district. Now these Chuvash are no different from Tatars in appearance: they have the same costumes, the same speech. They have mixed marriages: a Tatar marries a Chuvash woman, an unbaptized Chuvash woman marries a Tatar (Bagin S.A., 1910: 124-125, 225).

By religion, most of the Chuvash are Orthodox, but a large number of them still remain pagans. Over the past decades, there have been frequent cases of their conversion to Muslims, and not only pagan Chuvash, but also Chuvash Christians, are converting to Islam. The transition to Islam is made under the influence of the Tatars and is accompanied by the usual assimilation of the Chuvash and other aspects of Tatar life: customs, costume, language, etc. In the Buinsky district of the Simbirsk province, at least eight Chuvash villages are known to have become tatars. In general, the influence of the Tatars on the Chuvash is very strong, while the influence of Islam is especially noticeable among the eastern Chuvash. (A.N. Maksimov "What peoples live in Russia":)

How quickly the Chuvash was being processed can be seen from the following. Based on many documents of the 16th-19th centuries, we find traces of the existence of the Chuvash in places where they currently do not exist at all, but there are Tatars. So the Chuvash lived in Kazan itself, as its permanent residents, in the number of 150 yards, beyond Bulak; the city of Arsk and the Arsk land was entirely inhabited by Chuvash; Laishevsky county on both banks of the Kama was occupied by them; there were no Tatars at all to the west of the Sviyaga River, but there were Chuvash. According to Strezhnevsky V.I. in the “Extract from the separated books of the centurion of the Alatyr Cossacks 155 (1647), extensive estates of the Chuvash murzas in the current Sergachsky district are mentioned; it can be seen from the statement compiled by the Vasilsky district police officer Stanislavsky back in 1802, which explicitly says “they themselves are from the Chuvash”. Further, the Chuvash in the 16th century lived in Sloboda County, along the Chepce River, in Yelabuga County, in Sarapul county, etc. There are currently no Chuvash in all these places: they have become old.

The largest-scale "Islamization" of the Chuvash in the Ural-Volga region acquired after the Manifestos of April 17 and October 17, 1905, which declared freedom of religion. The conversion to Islam led in the first decades of the XX century to an increase in the number of Chuvash Muslims to 2,334 people. Also, the confession of Islam led to the beginning of the XX century to the conversion of about 12 thousand Chuvash. Since the 20s of the XX century, the pace of Islamization has slowed down under the influence of socio-political factors (see Religion in the USSR).

According to N.V. Nikolsky, in 1911 about one million people were considered Chuvash. Of these, more than 981,000 Chuvash were Orthodox, about 15 thousand people were adherents of the folk religion and more than 2 thousand were Muslims [1. 129].

"Mohammedans wash themselves every time before performing a prayer. This external rite of theirs is very popular with some Chuvash. I myself have heard several times from the Chuvash that the Tatars pray to God clean (washed), and not like the Russians, who, according to the Chuvash, pray unwashed. Muhammad's Paradise seems to be highly sensual; therefore, pagan Chuvash people, as a poorly educated people, find it very attractive." — T. S. "In what way do the Tatars attract Chuvash pagans to Muhammadanism?" News of the Kazan Diocese, No. 8, 1877. (Original - "Мухаммедане каждый разъ предъ совершеніемъ молитвы омываются. Этотъ внѣшній обрядъ ихъ весьма нравится нѣкоторымъ чувашамъ. Мнѣ самому несколько разъ приходилось слышать отъ чувашъ, что татары молятся Богу чистыми (омытыми), а не такъ, какъ русскіе, которые, по мнѣнію чувашъ, молятся неомытыми. Рай у Мухаммеда представляется въ высшей степени чувственнымъ; поэтому чувашамъ язычникамъ, какъ народу малообразованному, онъ кажется очень привлекательнымъ." — Т. С. "Какимъ способомъ татары увлекаютъ чувашъ язычниковъ въ мухаммеданство?" Известия по Казанской епархии, №8, 1877.)

But the Chuvash language is very far from ours, but despite this, the Chuvash consider us a kindred people compared to the Russians. If the sovereign had allowed us to call the Chuvash to Islam, we would have spent only a quarter of the efforts that Russians spend to Christianize the Chuvash. And they would have become true Muslims long ago… Russian Russian and Chuvash languages have nothing in common, the Chuvash consider Russians to be strangers and do not want to follow them. — Faizkhan, Husain. 1823-1866 Risala (Treatise)

Dog Nogai (talk) 21:49, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Nogai influence in Kazan

Kazan Tatars got their name from the main city of Kazan - and it is so called from the Tatar word Kazan, the cauldron, which was omitted by the servant of the founder of this city, Khan Altyn Bek, not on purpose, when he scooped water for his master to wash, in the river now called Kazanka. In other respects, according to their own legends, they were not of a special tribe, but descended from the fighters who remained here [in Kazan] on the settlement of different generations and from foreigners attracted to Kazan, but especially Nogai Tatars, who all through their union into a single society formed a special people. -- Miller Karl Wilhelm. "Description of all the peoples living in the Russian state,.." Part Two. About the peoples of the Tatar tribe. S-P, 1776, Translated from German.

Legends that go back to the Nogai epics: The second version of the name Kazan is a boiling pot. According to the most generally accepted version, the sorcerer advised the Nogais to build a city where a cauldron with water buried in the ground would boil without any fire. As a result, a similar place was found on the shore of Kaban Lake. The version is based on the assumption that the Tatar "cauldron" was called "cauldron". Hence, the name of the city of Kazan allegedly came from.

In Kazan there is a famous "Kaban Lake" similar to the name of the "Kuban River" - which translates from Nogai as "overflowing".

And now the main central Bauman Street in Kazan, which leads to the Kremlin, is one of the oldest streets in Kazan. In the era of the Kazan Khanate, it was called the Nogai daruga. Nogai daruga is a conditional territory, the possessions of which are controlled by the Nogai Horde, they were run by foremen beki:

Alibai Murzagulov, in 1773 the foreman of the Nogai daruga

Kinzya Arslanov foreman of the Bushmas-Kipchak parish of the Nogai daruga

Yamansary Yapparov foreman of the Suun-Kypsak parish of the Nogai daruga

It should be read: The journey to Muscovy of Baron Augustine Mayerberg and Horace Wilhelm Calvucci, ambassadors of the August Roman Emperor Leopold to the Tsar and Grand Duke Alexei Mikhailovich in 1661, described by Baron Mayerberg himself.

As described in these ancient scribal sources, it is said that Kazan was founded by runaway Tatars from the Crimea (Taurida). When Ivan IV the Terrible took this Tatar (Kazan) Khanate together with the Mari (Cheremis), forced them to accept the power of Moscow (read the Cheremis wars). And then right here we see the Bulgars referred to as a separate people and separate neighboring landholdings! Here is the text: However, as a reward for the offense (to the Bulgars), he subdued (Moscow) neighboring Bulgaria, which he could not stand for frequent rebellions, so that this country, not accustomed to submission, learned to wear someone else's YOKE. As is obvious from the description, the Tatars of the Kazan Khanate and the Bulgars of the Bulgarian land are different peoples and territories! This is evidenced by the coats of arms on the great seal of Tsar Ivan the Terrible!

Tatar Queen Syuyumbike who is revered in Kazan was also the daughter of Nogai biya (khan). Dog Nogai (talk) 22:04, 30 October 2023 (UTC)